Post-Game Talk: Islanders 3, Penguins 2 (SO) - Greiss Trolls the Penguins

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Empoleon8771

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Aug 25, 2015
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......


......


......bro....

Really?

Yes, completely serious. People love him because he's the shiny new toy, but he was super ineffective in all but his first game this year. People in here criticize Johnson for bleeding HDCA, but Riikola is giving up even more HDCA per minute than JJ has so far. Riikola's possession stats are even worse, when people criticize Johnson for having bad possession stats.
 

Gurglesons

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Dec 18, 2009
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Unpopular opinion that shouldn't be unpopular: Riikola has been their worst defensemen so far this year.

So, like Ruhwedel and Riikola haven’t been great, but they are fringe players.

Maatta had a bad start, but seems to be rounding into Mr. Mediocre that he always is. Doing nothing great, but also doing nothing egregious. I’d also point to Oleksiak looking good with Maatta being part of Maatta’s game.

JJ has weighed down every partner he is with and is literally the exact player we all warned people about. Bleeds goals again, his gambles rarely pay off and if they do they don’t make up for his lazy / disinterested zone play.

I honesty don’t get why people are trying to defend him. We all knew it was a bad signing.
 

Pancakes

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This is such a dumb argument. JJ has been by far our worst D. And other people being bad has no impact on that.

So here's the numbers:

Olli Maatta: -4.9 Corsi Rel 34% o-zone starts XGF 53%
JJ: -5.9 Corsi Rel 46% o-zone starts XGF 44%
Riikola: -7.9 Corsi Rel 37% o-zone starts XGF 38%
Schultz: -12 Corsi Rel XGF 36%
Ruhwedel: -2.9 Corsi Rel 45% o-zone starts XGF 49%

Ignoring Letang/Dumo since obviously we don't need to show how good they've been. Also left out Oleksiak since his numbers are pretty good as well.

Stats seem to suggest Riikola has been our worst. Schultz was pretty bad too. Of course, both guys have only played 4 games. No doubt JJ has the worst numbers of any of our active d. But Maatta is also getting caved in possession.

Anyways, our entire d sucks outside of one pairing and Oleksiak. That's a problem. JJ is a part of the problem, but he's not the only one. I hated the contract and still do, but JJ would be a lot more palatable if other guys were playing like they're capable of. We at least know Maatta has in the past performed admirably. We know Ruh and Schultz can play better. JJ might just be...this. But him being what he is looks a LOT worse when the rest of the d is playing like a garbage fire.

So for me the most pressing issue is getting the rest of our d performing the way they're capable of. JJ might not ever perform better. History suggests he's just not very good. But we know Maatta/Schultz can be so much better.
 

Pancakes

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Yes, completely serious. People love him because he's the shiny new toy, but he was super ineffective in all but his first game this year. People in here criticize Johnson for bleeding HDCA, but Riikola is giving up even more HDCA per minute than JJ has so far. Riikola's possession stats are even worse, when people criticize Johnson for having bad possession stats.

I liked Riikola a lot in preseason but you're right. As the numbers I just posted indicate, Riikola has been by far our worst d.

JJ has been the worst regular though. The guys with worse numbers than him have only played 4-5 games.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
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So, like Ruhwedel and Riikola haven’t been great, but they are fringe players.

Maatta had a bad start, but seems to be rounding into Mr. Mediocre that he always is. Doing nothing great, but also doing nothing egregious. I’d also point to Oleksiak looking good with Maatta being part of Maatta’s game.

JJ has weighed down every partner he is with and is literally the exact player we all warned people about. Bleeds goals again, his gambles rarely pay off and if they do they don’t make up for his lazy / disinterested zone play.

I honesty don’t get why people are trying to defend him. We all knew it was a bad signing.

Yeah, I was kind of hoping (praying?) his offensive game would look similar to what Oleksiak is doing, to offset his poor defense. Instead, his defense is about on par with Oleksiak's, but without the offense.
 

EightyOne

My posts are jokes. And hockey is just a game.
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You have to take into account league experience AND salary cap. It's not always feasible to rate a player in a vacuum.

Ruh and Riik might kinda suck. But they have a handful of games and a, fraction of the cost of JMFJ.

Based on how they ALL suck, having 4 Riikolas vs ONE JMFJ would actually be a net improvement. They MIGHT get good. Johnson ain't getting better. This is who he has been for most of a decade.

*edit: plus there's a real opportunity cost to have a player like JMFJ in terms of having a roster spot locked up and salary cap locked up for a shitty return.
 

Gurglesons

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Yeah, I was kind of hoping (praying?) his offensive game would look similar to what Oleksiak is doing, to offset his poor defense. Instead, his defense is about on par with Oleksiak's, but without the offense.

Oleksiak and Maatta have been surprisingly solid defensively and Oleksiak is outscoring EK so woooooo
 

Empoleon8771

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Aug 25, 2015
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You have to take into account league experience AND salary cap. It's not always feasible to rate a player in a vacuum.

League experience and how they're paid is totally irrelevant of their actual performance. Being younger and cheaper means you'd be able to tolerate them struggling more, but it's totally irrelevant of their actual play. Based on his play, Riikola has been the worst defensemen for the Penguins this year.

Yeah, I was kind of hoping (praying?) his offensive game would look similar to what Oleksiak is doing, to offset his poor defense. Instead, his defense is about on par with Oleksiak's, but without the offense.

I honestly don't know what to think about Oleksiak this year. The 3 goals and 7 points while being a +8 in 10 games is obviously fantastic, and his possession stats are pretty good considering his zone starts (right at team average despite getting 35% offensive zone starts). However, he's currently rocking an absurd 108 PDO, with getting both unsustainable goaltending and unsustainable offense when he's on the ice.

He's been really good recently and I want to see him get more ice time because of it, but overall on the year, I think his stat line is better than how he has actually played on the year. His play in the defensive zone is still super questionable, he had a god awful turnover last night that sticks out in my mind from that game.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
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Oh, and before I forget, a minor minus to Sullivan for once again going to Rust on that Crosby line in the third and, I believe, part of the 3 on 3 OT.

IT DOES NOT WORK.

I think Rust is the one winger on the team I hope we NEVER see next to Sid again.
 
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BlindWillyMcHurt

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May 31, 2004
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Maybe he steadily gets a bit better as he gets more comfortable. But I'm really stretching things even with that much optimism, I think. I still don't understand why a contingent of Penguins fans are acting like JJ WASN'T this massive black hole of a defenseman for the better part of a decade. He was right there on the Jackets for us to see regularly. It's all well and good to hope for the best, I get that. But we've had a good eyeful, now and I mean... doesn't it sort of conform to what we've seen elsewhere?

My favorite are the spastic pirouettes in front of our goaltender as he "ole!" the goalscorer on past him to the net.
 
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CheckingLineCenter

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*edit: plus there's a real opportunity cost to have a player like JMFJ in terms of having a roster spot locked up and salary cap locked up for a ****ty return.

Why did Rutherford make that deal? I know it’s been discussed to no end but I cannot wrap my head around it. Literally made zero sense at the time.

Like take away all advanced stats and he was coming off an awful year. He’s 31. Defense isn’t perfect but its not some glaring need. He’s a lefty. You just wasted your time with Hunwick.

I don’t get it. I am legitimately asking why he would sign JJ to that contract. I know GMs do stupid shit but I can’t find the rationale.
 
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EightyOne

My posts are jokes. And hockey is just a game.
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No freakin idea. Sid can't want him that bad. If you need a Sid buddy, get Mackinnon (as if that's possible).

JJ came straight outta left field. Then they made such a big deal about it. Like there's a bidding war for the guy.

Looney.
 

AuroraBorealis

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Oct 16, 2018
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You have to take into account league experience AND salary cap. It's not always feasible to rate a player in a vacuum.

Ruh and Riik might kinda suck. But they have a handful of games and a, fraction of the cost of JMFJ.

Based on how they ALL suck, having 4 Riikolas vs ONE JMFJ would actually be a net improvement. They MIGHT get good. Johnson ain't getting better. This is who he has been for most of a decade.

*edit: plus there's a real opportunity cost to have a player like JMFJ in terms of having a roster spot locked up and salary cap locked up for a ****ty return.
While some aspects of Riikola's game (urgency, zone clearances, shooting, etc...) aren't where I'd like them to be, there aren't many instances of goals against this year where I can directly blame him. Can't say the same for Johnson or Maatta.
 

Pancakes

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No freakin idea. Sid can't want him that bad. If you need a Sid buddy, get Mackinnon (as if that's possible).

JJ came straight outta left field. Then they made such a big deal about it. Like there's a bidding war for the guy.

Looney.

Sid and JJ were friends dating back to playing together at Shattuck St. Marys. So it's possible Sid did push JR to sign him. And what Sid wants, Sid is gonna get.

If JJ was signed to keep Sid happy and motivated it's not the worst idea honestly.
 
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AuroraBorealis

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I'd honestly be thinking about using different guys in shootouts. The last few have been incredibly uninspired. Obviously he was but it looked like Malkin wasn't even trying.
Yeah it's a tough call. We only had 4 shootouts last year. Geno and Sid both went 2/4. I liked Sid's mindset yesterday. He tried to make Greiss move. You gotta give Greiss full credit there though. He followed him like a mirror until he ran outta race track. I think Sully just needs to tell Malkin to come in with more speed.

Who else is a good option? I'd maybe take Rust. He comes in with speed, make goalies move laterally and elevates the puck. Wonder how Jake would do too.
 

Speaking Moistly

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Why did Rutherford make that deal? I know it’s been discussed to no end but I cannot wrap my head around it. Literally made zero sense at the time.

Like take away all advanced stats and he was coming off an awful year. He’s 31. Defense isn’t perfect but its not some glaring need. He’s a lefty. You just wasted your time with Hunwick.

I don’t get it. I am legitimately asking why he would sign JJ to that contract. I know GMs do stupid **** but I can’t find the rationale.

It’s starting to look like JR needs a spending limit on free agency defensive signings, tbh. Something went wrong with Hunwick and Johnson in consecutive years. We know they wanted to limit Letang’s minutes and, lbr, build around the assumption he’ll miss time. Maybe he thought Johnson would make someone else a trade piece, maybe he’s loved Johnson for years because he did draft the guy, maybe they thought Letang was done as an elite player and panicked, maybe he got distracted by size and grit again.

The bigger question is the bit about Johnson not being scratched for his on ice performance in Columbus. Nothing I’ve seen is making me think it wasn’t his on ice performance. Also, why it was that contract. Was it a masterful agent? “Oh, Jack wasn’t scratched because of his play, it was off ice stuff with... Torts. Yes, Torts. Many teams know this, it’s why we have so many offers.”
 
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Gurglesons

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So here's the numbers:

Olli Maatta: -4.9 Corsi Rel 34% o-zone starts XGF 53%
JJ: -5.9 Corsi Rel 46% o-zone starts XGF 44%
Riikola: -7.9 Corsi Rel 37% o-zone starts XGF 38%
Schultz: -12 Corsi Rel XGF 36%
Ruhwedel: -2.9 Corsi Rel 45% o-zone starts XGF 49%

Ignoring Letang/Dumo since obviously we don't need to show how good they've been. Also left out Oleksiak since his numbers are pretty good as well.

Stats seem to suggest Riikola has been our worst. Schultz was pretty bad too. Of course, both guys have only played 4 games. No doubt JJ has the worst numbers of any of our active d. But Maatta is also getting caved in possession.

Anyways, our entire d sucks outside of one pairing and Oleksiak. That's a problem. JJ is a part of the problem, but he's not the only one. I hated the contract and still do, but JJ would be a lot more palatable if other guys were playing like they're capable of. We at least know Maatta has in the past performed admirably. We know Ruh and Schultz can play better. JJ might just be...this. But him being what he is looks a LOT worse when the rest of the d is playing like a garbage fire.

So for me the most pressing issue is getting the rest of our d performing the way they're capable of. JJ might not ever perform better. History suggests he's just not very good. But we know Maatta/Schultz can be so much better.

So everyone is getting significantly worst zone starts and playing the same or more minutes and JJ is marginally better.
 

AverageJoeFan

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League experience and how they're paid is totally irrelevant of their actual performance. Being younger and cheaper means you'd be able to tolerate them struggling more, but it's totally irrelevant of their actual play. Based on his play, Riikola has been the worst defensemen for the Penguins this year.



I honestly don't know what to think about Oleksiak this year. The 3 goals and 7 points while being a +8 in 10 games is obviously fantastic, and his possession stats are pretty good considering his zone starts (right at team average despite getting 35% offensive zone starts). However, he's currently rocking an absurd 108 PDO, with getting both unsustainable goaltending and unsustainable offense when he's on the ice.

He's been really good recently and I want to see him get more ice time because of it, but overall on the year, I think his stat line is better than how he has actually played on the year. His play in the defensive zone is still super questionable, he had a god awful turnover last night that sticks out in my mind from that game.
Chara light, perhaps?
 
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