Is YouTube Done? (MOD Warning - See post #193)

[Hammettf2b]

I openly admit to mischaracterizing his comment as a "racial rant", but I have done significant reading and research since, and I remain convinced that he doesn't necessarily advocate for racial organizations. I mean, most of the gaming community is wont to throw around terms and insults which are very inappropriate and it doesn't make them an ardent practicer of any type of hate organization.

What I've realized is that his racial commentary, light spirited or not, is hurting other people. If you're doing something offensive and other people start getting affected, that's when you as a man need to take responsibility for your actions and tone it down. I'm well versed in the gaming community and I've seen so many people just drop racial slurs like it was nothing just to "sound cool". No one is saying that his channel is a white supremacy outlet. They're saying that advertisers don't necessarily like to be associated with any type of controversy. PewDiePie is affecting Youtube streamers. I personally admit to not liking him and I tolerate him by "ignoring" him (as Hammet said), however when his actions affect other streamers that's when I have to draw a line and tell him to watch himself. His actions are insensitive, but what's more important is that his insensitivity and frank, colorful dialogue are affecting ad revenue, which is a major cog in the online streaming community.

Well he's still obviously not going anywhere (at least thats my conclusion from what happened last time) so if you as a content creator don't like it you have 2 options.

Deal with it or Leave the community.

 

[Shareefruck]

Both are fair game is correct, so the ppl will decide if he stays relevant or not. No need to get up in arms about it. (not saying you did, just in general) I get that there is a discussion about it and what not, but I don't see why some are so upset about it.

That itself is a fair impression, but IMO, not seeing why people are upset about something doesn't suddenly make it justifiable to tell them that if they don't like it, they shouldn't watch it.

 

[Hammettf2b]

That itself is a fair impression, but IMO, not seeing why people are upset about something doesn't suddenly make it justifiable to tell them that if they don't like it, they shouldn't watch it.

What do you suggest they do?

 

[HanSolo]

If you know it's wrong then why are you going to such great lengths for this garbage? Why the desperation to label it diet racism? This casual racism that people slip in and out of is actually more dangerous than overt racism because these sorts of people approve your loans, look at your resume, and police your streets. This sort of nonsense chips away at society, especially when it comes from a guy who has a massive audience of kids. It perpetuates the cycle and you know it. He wanted a hateful word to call another person and that's the word he went for. There's no middle ground here or honest mistake. This isn't his first slip up either. He is a racist person.

Take a gander at twitter or YT comments to see how many people - many of them teenagers - are lining up to defend PDP and tell me he doesn't promote certain viewpoints. If nothing of consequence happens to him you think nobody is going to notice? Where do you think systemic racism gestates?



Talking about it - in this case criticizing YT for their inaction and allowing this on their platform - is doing something about it. You just want people to be quiet and go away. Stop talking about the racist!

Because I've seen the effects of overpunishing people to prove a point or in the name of moral/societal crusade. I'm sure you're familiar with the War on Drugs, no? Hard on crime/hard on drugs campaign promises have led to thousands upon thousands of unjust imprisonments. I'm not in favor of racism in any form but if we're striving for a world of fairness it's not fair to mischaracterize someone in the same way that true hate groups get vilified (rightfully so). Should we root out every single person who has ever dropped a casually racist slur and outcast them as social pariahs? He's made some stupid mistakes and said some stupid things. You may feel it's just to hold those people to the same standards as active and truly despicable racist hate mongerers who actually go on racist rants and even engage in violence with races they hate, but I don't. I agree no level of racism is okay but I don't think dropping an N word while angry and playing an FPS game is the same thing as ramming your car into pro black protesters in Charlottesville. Maybe I'm crazy for thinking that way but that doesn't make me a sympathizer of racism. Pewdiepie should be remanded and shamed for what he did but would it be fair to place a WARNING THIS CHANNEL IS KKK label in front of all his videos? Would that be proportional to his misdeeds? He said some racially insensitive stuff. He should be admonished for it but not crucified.

 

[Shareefruck]

What do you suggest they do?

I don't see anything wrong with what they're already currently doing.

My point is that it's presumptuous to treat it like "Being up in arms or critical about something is unacceptable-- therefore, if it doesn't affect you, you should avoid it at all costs if possible in order to not be critical of it" which is what the statement "don't like it, don't watch it" basically implies. It's nonsense. There's no reason not to be critical about something that affects people and can be scrutinized. You're right that people aren't forced to do it, but there's no reason they shouldn't do it either. Which makes that statement meaningless.

Being annoyed or critical or up in arms about something is not an automatic cry of "Why do I have to be forced to do this?!" so you're responding to something that nobody is saying.

 

[Hammettf2b]

I don't see anything wrong with what they're already currently doing.

My point is that it's presumptuous to treat it like "Being up in arms or critical about something is unacceptable-- therefore, if it doesn't affect you, you should avoid it at all costs if possible in order to not be critical of it" which is what the statement "don't like it, don't watch it" basically implies. It's nonsense. There's no reason not to be critical about something that affects people and can be scrutinized.

You can be critical of something all you want. Its when you want to be critical of something on the behalf of others is where I have a problem with it. People can speak for themselves.

Being annoyed or critical or up in arms about something is not an automatic cry of "Why do I have to be forced to do this?!" so you're responding to something that nobody is saying.

Its not, but it is the solution.

 

[XX]

Because I've seen the effects of overpunishing people to prove a point or in the name of moral/societal crusade. I'm sure you're familiar with the War on Drugs, no? Hard on crime/hard on drugs campaign promises have led to thousands upon thousands of unjust imprisonments.

Is this a joke? Deleting an account or at least demonetizing his channel is comparable to incarcerating someone (potentially for life)? Come on dude. You sure are going to bat for putting racists on a spectrum.

I'm not in favor of racism in any form but if we're striving for a world of fairness it's not fair to mischaracterize someone in the same way that true hate groups get vilified (rightfully so). Should we root out every single person who has ever dropped a casually racist slur and outcast them as social pariahs?

Nope. People get a chance to change and apologize. I think calling for a little ownership and responsibility for his actions is far from making him a social pariah. This hyperbole doesn't really fit you. You know that people get away with much more in real life, so why are we letting a major public figure (which sadly he is) off the hook now? What kind of message does that send?

I agree no level of racism is okay but I don't think dropping an N word while angry and playing an FPS game is the same thing as ramming your car into pro black protesters in Charlottesville.

Of course it's not. I don't know why anyone would make that comparison. The guy that ran people over is going away for a long time. But they are both symptoms of the same thing. They perpetuate the same cycle. The proportionate response here is not to 'crucify' PDP or to incarcerate him for life. It's to delete his channel off YT or to demonetize it so that he can't profit off of this sort of thing. He's already had a show canceled and a contract terminated, and that was before this. Were those corporations wrong to abandon him and the platform? Why is it such a stretch to ask that they continue to clamp down on this sort of thing? What, exactly, do you think I'm asking for here? That he be shot?

Most people get fired for being racist in this way. I think the YT equivalent here is pretty reasonable.

Maybe I'm crazy for thinking that way but that doesn't make me a sympathizer of racism. Pewdiepie should be remanded and shamed for what he did but would it be fair to place a WARNING THIS CHANNEL IS KKK label in front of all his videos?

Some sort of restriction, like a more prominent age filter or content warning, isn't a bad idea at all. It'd help steer money away from these clowns more effectively, so that's a good idea you've got there!

 

[Shareefruck]

Its not, but it is the solution.

It's the solution only if your own frustration over it and the fact that it's consuming your attention is the problem that you want to solve, but that's not the case. You're offering a solution to a problem that nobody has.

You can be critical of something all you want. Its when you want to be critical of something on the behalf of others is where I have a problem with it. People can speak for themselves.

I don't see where the conflict is in this. The victim doesn't have ownership over what anyone can think about an act. If people wish to argue about whether or not the act is acceptable or moral or commendable or objectionable, how does that prevent the people whom its directly affecting from speaking up for themselves? And why should people avoid engaging in that?

 

[Shareefruck]

For example, if Pewdiepie hypothetically actually went on an unambiguous racist rant-- Yes, the people he is being racist to can speak for themselves. But outside observers can still react to and acknowledge it as a vile and unsavory thing.... for... reasons.

The fact that this is ambiguous makes the discussion more inconclusive, but it does nothing to change who should rightfully comment on it. And the fact that nobody HAS to comment on it and can do something else (that gets them "up in arms" less) isn't a valid reason for why they SHOULDN'T comment on it and SHOULD talk about something else.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

"Let the market decide" is one of the dumbest defenses of anything that people use regularly when individuals or businesses cross the line.

 

[HanSolo]

Is this a joke? Deleting an account or at least demonetizing his channel is comparable to incarcerating someone (potentially for life)? Come on dude. You sure are going to bat for putting racists on a spectrum.



Nope. People get a chance to change and apologize. I think calling for a little ownership and responsibility for his actions is far from making him a social pariah. This hyperbole doesn't really fit you. You know that people get away with much more in real life, so why are we letting a major public figure (which sadly he is) off the hook now? What kind of message does that send?



Of course it's not. I don't know why anyone would make that comparison. The guy that ran people over is going away for a long time. But they are both symptoms of the same thing. They perpetuate the same cycle. The proportionate response here is not to 'crucify' PDP or to incarcerate him for life. It's to delete his channel off YT or to demonetize it so that he can't profit off of this sort of thing. He's already had a show canceled and a contract terminated, and that was before this. Were those corporations wrong to abandon him and the platform? Why is it such a stretch to ask that they continue to clamp down on this sort of thing? What, exactly, do you think I'm asking for here? That he be shot?

Most people get fired for being racist in this way. I think the YT equivalent here is pretty reasonable.



Some sort of restriction, like a more prominent age filter or content warning, isn't a bad idea at all. It'd help steer money away from these clowns more effectively, so that's a good idea you've got there!

I knew my point referring to the War on Drugs would fly right past your head in wide circles. Don't know why I bothered, not sure why I'm about to continue but here goes: no I'm not saying shutting down his channel is equivalent to imprisoning people for petty possession crimes. I thought it was rather obvious that I was referring to the same state of mind in overdoing punishments or overaccusing people in the name of a social/moral crusade. I never even argued against shutting down his channel btw. I only ever spoke against accusing him of something he didn't do.

You don't even seem to grasp what I was arguing against.

Nope. People get a chance to change and apologize. I think calling for a little ownership and responsibility for his actions is far from making him a social pariah. This hyperbole doesn't really fit you. You know that people get away with much more in real life, so why are we letting a major public figure (which sadly he is) off the hook now? What kind of message does that send?

Case in point. I never said he shouldn't be held accountable. But labeling him as someone who goes on RACIST RANTS is overextending the accountability into demanding he take ownership for something he didn't even do. That's all I'm saying. He made anti semitic jokes and dropped the N word. He should answer for those misdeeds. He shouldn't have to answer for going on incendiary racist rants if he didn't do so anymore than someone charged with assault and battery shouldn't have to answer to an accusation of murder if he clearly never killed anyone.

Of course it's not. I don't know why anyone would make that comparison. The guy that ran people over is going away for a long time. But they are both symptoms of the same thing. They perpetuate the same cycle. The proportionate response here is not to 'crucify' PDP or to incarcerate him for life. It's to delete his channel off YT or to demonetize it so that he can't profit off of this sort of thing. He's already had a show canceled and a contract terminated, and that was before this. Were those corporations wrong to abandon him and the platform? Why is it such a stretch to ask that they continue to clamp down on this sort of thing? What, exactly, do you think I'm asking for here? That he be shot?

Most people get fired for being racist in this way. I think the YT equivalent here is pretty reasonable.

Well is a permaban really that reasonable? Yes in the workplace there's no expectation of atonement but couldn't you just ban his monetization for a year for example and allow him to prove he can make future content free of any racial insensitivity? In the last paragraph I quoted you even stated you'd be in favor of letting him change and apologize. Would wiping him off the platform in perpetuity really be reasonable to someone who shows a desire to change? Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. If he's an unapologetic racist then let him be damned to the winds for all I care. In any case I wasn't arguing against any consequences he may suffer as a result of his actions other than condemnations against an act he didn't commit.

Some sort of restriction, like a more prominent age filter or content warning, isn't a bad idea at all. It'd help steer money away from these clowns more effectively, so that's a good idea you've got there!

Fine. I'm not against that but it goes beyond the scope of what I was talking about. I just don't think it's fair to accuse people and hold them accountable for things they didn't do. He dropped the f bomb and should be accused of and held accountable for doing so. He shouldn't have to answer for more than what he did.

 

[Hammettf2b]

For example, if Pewdiepie hypothetically actually went on an unambiguous racist rant-- Yes, the people he is being racist to can speak for themselves. But outside observers can still react to and acknowledge it as a vile and unsavory thing.... for... reasons.

The fact that this is ambiguous makes the discussion more inconclusive, but it does nothing to change who should rightfully comment on it. And the fact that nobody HAS to comment on it and can do something else (that gets them "up in arms" less) isn't a valid reason for why they SHOULDN'T comment on it and SHOULD talk about something else.

I guess I just don't understand why ppl care so much. For me, it doesn't impact my life to they point where I would get upset. I can see how ppl would have an opinion on the matter and what not though for sure. For me its, "meh, its more justification on why I don't watch his content" and just move on. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

 

[Hammettf2b]

"Let the market decide" is one of the dumbest defenses of anything that people use regularly when individuals or businesses cross the line.

How would "punish" business that cross the line, that are not illegal of course.

 

[Shareefruck]

I guess I just don't understand why ppl care so much. For me, it doesn't impact my life to they point where I would get upset. I can see how ppl would have an opinion on the matter and what not though for sure. For me its, "meh, its more justification on why I don't watch his content" and just move on. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

That's fine, and for the record, I'm not making any point about your actual views. I just despise the "Don't like? Don't watch" argument because it imposes something that people have no reason to subscribe to.

For me personally, these topics are interesting, and if they're frustrating or upsetting (which in this case, they're not, really), I don't see that as a bad thing that there's any need to avoid (especially not by ignoring that it exists).

 

[kurt]

Is this a joke? Deleting an account or at least demonetizing his channel is comparable to incarcerating someone (potentially for life)? Come on dude. You sure are going to bat for putting racists on a spectrum.

QFT - people are insanely insensitive/oblivious/unaware sometimes.

 

[XX]

I knew my point referring to the War on Drugs would fly right past your head in wide circles.

I got your argument just fine. It was wildly inappropriate. For someone that is going to great lengths to explain the various degrees of racism, you have no problem invoking hyperbolic, generalized arguments that don't fit what we're talking about at all. You've already managed to invoke the war on drugs and an actual murder when discussing someone that streams games on Youtube. Where are we going next?

Well is a permaban really that reasonable? Yes in the workplace there's no expectation of atonement but couldn't you just ban his monetization for a year for example and allow him to prove he can make future content free of any racial insensitivity? In the last paragraph I quoted you even stated you'd be in favor of letting him change and apologize. Would wiping him off the platform in perpetuity really be reasonable to someone who shows a desire to change? Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. If he's an unapologetic racist then let him be damned to the winds for all I care. In any case I wasn't arguing against any consequences he may suffer as a result of his actions other than condemnations against an act he didn't commit.

Why is he entitled to a YT account and channel? His little dust-up with the WSJ cost the platform millions of dollars. Probably hundreds of millions in ad buys, actually. He's lucky he still has one.

Your continual bending-over-backwards act to make sure this guy isn't lumped in with more overt racists is one of the strangest things I've ever seen on HF. Like, what do we really have to lose here by calling a spade a spade? Why are you putting so much effort into defending the honor of this person when they clearly don't deserve it? He hasn't shown any remorse for his actions. You curiously don't seem nearly as interested in systemic racism and the forces that help perpetuate it as you do defending him. Why is that? Are you a fan? Be honest. Because your argument up until this point is really odd. No punishment I've called for you've actually wholly disagreed with, and you've actually come up with a few novel approaches of your own. What's the deal?

 

[Hammettf2b]

I got your argument just fine. It was wildly inappropriate. For someone that is going to great lengths to explain the various degrees of racism, you have no problem invoking hyperbolic, generalized arguments that don't fit what we're talking about at all. You've already managed to invoke the war on drugs and an actual murder when discussing someone that streams games on Youtube. Where are we going next?



Why is he entitled to a YT account and channel? His little dust-up with the WSJ cost the platform millions of dollars. Probably hundreds of millions in ad buys, actually. He's lucky he still has one.

Your continual bending-over-backwards act to make sure this guy isn't lumped in with more overt racists is one of the strangest things I've ever seen on HF. Like, what do we really have to lose here by calling a spade a spade? Why are you putting so much effort into defending the honor of this person when they clearly don't deserve it? He hasn't shown any remorse for his actions. You curiously don't seem nearly as interested in systemic racism and the forces that help perpetuate it as you do defending him. Why is that? Are you a fan? Be honest. Because your argument up until this point is really odd. No punishment I've called for you've actually wholly disagreed with, and you've actually come up with a few novel approaches of your own. What's the deal?

 

[Spring in Fialta]

That's how I feel about your contributions to this thread.

 

[Hammettf2b]

That's how I feel about your contributions to this thread.

Care to give me examples of this country (USA) having systematic racism?

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Care to give me examples of this country (USA) having systematic racism?

The ****ing War on Drugs (or just the justice system in general), racial profiling, media coverage, voting laws.

This is off-topic but I don't mind taking this discussion to the politics board, if you'd like?

 

[Hammettf2b]

The ****ing War on Drugs (or just the justice system in general), racial profiling, media coverage, voting laws.

This is off-topic but I don't mind taking this discussion to the politics board, if you'd like?

No need. You can however pm me though.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Will do.

 

[kurt]

Care to give me examples of this country (USA) having systematic racism?

....

seriously?

 

[Hammettf2b]

....

seriously?

Yup, go ahead. I'll wait...

 

[HanSolo]

I got your argument just fine. It was wildly inappropriate. For someone that is going to great lengths to explain the various degrees of racism, you have no problem invoking hyperbolic, generalized arguments that don't fit what we're talking about at all. You've already managed to invoke the war on drugs and an actual murder when discussing someone that streams games on Youtube. Where are we going next?



Why is he entitled to a YT account and channel? His little dust-up with the WSJ cost the platform millions of dollars. Probably hundreds of millions in ad buys, actually. He's lucky he still has one.

Your continual bending-over-backwards act to make sure this guy isn't lumped in with more overt racists is one of the strangest things I've ever seen on HF. Like, what do we really have to lose here by calling a spade a spade? Why are you putting so much effort into defending the honor of this person when they clearly don't deserve it? He hasn't shown any remorse for his actions. You curiously don't seem nearly as interested in systemic racism and the forces that help perpetuate it as you do defending him. Why is that? Are you a fan? Be honest. Because your argument up until this point is really odd. No punishment I've called for you've actually wholly disagreed with, and you've actually come up with a few novel approaches of your own. What's the deal?

I'll try to keep ot brief cause I'm getting weary about this whole thing. I invoked the war on drugs and murder to address my point for illustrative purposes. Not to suggest the dynamics are comparable in nature. My point was that as a society, calling for retribution in the form of accusing people for something they aren't guilty of in the name of what one perceives as social or moral justice is disengenous and a slippery slope that leads to people being unjustly slammed for things they didn't do. I'm not a PewDiePie "fan" and I don't endorse what he's done. On numerous occasions I've called for him to get what he deserves for what he did. The extent of such is a matter for debate I really don't care about. I won't lose sleep over it if he loses his channel and all his money. It is gonna bug me if we as a society can just wantonly accuse people of acts they didn't commit in the aftermath of a lesser wrong.

It's happened to me. Not in the realm of racism. I'll be up front about it. I moved to a new school in Las Vegas years ago. I didn't know anybody but one of the most popular girls took a liking to me and we started dating and that immediately put me in socially. One of this girl's friends hated the fact that we were together and she actively lied to my ex until she broke up with me. This angered me so I yelled at her and called her a b word. But that's all I did. Her being the lying snake that she was she told the whole school that I screamed at her and kicked her in the stomach. There was no proof that I did so. She refused to show any damages cause she "didn't want to show her belly" I never even got in trouble with the school but it didn't matter. I lost every friend I had and I spent the rest of my time there trying to fix my reputation for my own mental well being. It was tough being known as the "woman beater" with no good chance to defend myself.

I don't like PewDiePie. I don't endorse the things he's said but as a generality I hate it when people are accused of things they didn't do. Even if they already did something ******. Yes PewDiePie has already dug himself a massive hole with his racially insensitive comments but I don't think it's okay to mischaracterize someone's behavior as something other than what they actually did. I think it's despicable and on a societal level it gives people license to destroy people they don't like at will.

Edit: and if you did understand my point in regards to the war on drugs I really don't get why you're taking such a hard stance on it after I've already made it clear that my equivalency is not in the degree of harm but the very idea that disproportionate retribution is not justified. I figured the war on drugs is a subject matter that can easily be identified as an injustice in the name of core morality and societal stances on certain things, in this case the disproportionality of mere drug possession and the subsequent imprisonment. I'm not saying PewDiePie is suffering on an equivalent level. That would be inappropriate. I'm saying the logical framework and leaps taken in the name of punishing people disproportionately because of the punisher's moral and societal stances is not too far off. I personally don't think blasting someone for casual use of a racial slur warrants also blasting someone for being a purveyor of racial rants if they never committed such an act. If that makes me an ally of racists as you so desperately want to paint me as, so be it. I just fundamentally don't feel it's just to punish someone for more bad deeds than they actually committed.