Is Toews deserving of the HHoF?

[Captain Bowie]

I
The guy captained his team to three Stanley Cups, has one of the best international resumes, and was one of the most influential players in the game.

The bolded is a big reason why he will get in, but to me it means little in terms of deserving. I mean, it's the main reason why George Armstrong is there. He was never a top end player, but captained the Leafs to 4 SC wins, so he gets in.

In my mind, if you're argument on getting in the Hall is based around the precedence set by George Armstrong, you don't have a very good argument.

Being a top end player is not required to be a captain in the NHL. It's not even required to be a Stanley Cup Winning captain in the NHL. Dustin Brown, Darien Hatcher, Guy Carbonneau weren't all HOF players. Is anyone going to make the argument that if Brian Campbell or Duncan Keith or Patrick Sharp were name captain when Toews was, they have less cups?

 

[GreatGonzo]

The bolded is a big reason why he will get in, but to me it means little in terms of deserving. I mean, it's the main reason why George Armstrong is there. He was never a top end player, but captained the Leafs to 4 SC wins, so he gets in.

In my mind, if you're argument on getting in the Hall is based around the precedence set by George Armstrong, you don't have a very good argument.

Being a top end player is not required to be a captain in the NHL. It's not even required to be a Stanley Cup Winning captain in the NHL. Dustin Brown, Darien Hatcher, Guy Carbonneau weren't all HOF players. Is anyone going to make the argument that if Brian Campbell or Duncan Keith or Patrick Sharp were name captain when Toews was, they have less cups?

Not just that, but it’s the idea that him being captain of a stanley cup winning team makes him elite, or an all time great alone.

If you look at, what many consider, the greatest captains in NHL history not named Gretzky or Lemieux(Messier, Yzerman, Stevens, Sakic, Potvin, etc...). Their leadership qualities and status only added to their legacy, but they were HOF players, among being some of the best players during their days, in their own right. With Toews, his legacy, status, and talent level as a player relies mostly on his leadership qualities that have been blown greatly out of proportion.

If Messier or Yzerman had never worn the C during a cup championship, or even had Never won a cup....they would still be HOFers, their legacy’s would only be different.

 

[GlitchMarner]

The bolded is a big reason why he will get in, but to me it means little in terms of deserving. I mean, it's the main reason why George Armstrong is there. He was never a top end player, but captained the Leafs to 4 SC wins, so he gets in.

In my mind, if you're argument on getting in the Hall is based around the precedence set by George Armstrong, you don't have a very good argument.

Glenn Anderson, Clark Gillies and Dick Duff would have never made the HHOF without their contributions to Stanley Cup Championships (and these guys were complementary players). I'm not sure Mullen would be a HHOF'er without his Cup wins in Calgary and Pittsburgh (the fact he was American may have gotten him in regardless). Does Joe Nieuwendyk get in without his three Cups?

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but the HHOF seems to have a thing for players who contribute to more than two Championships and have good or better than good careers otherwise (other than Cups, what puts Nieuwendyk above Turgeon or Roenick or Anderson, Gillies or Duff above LeClair or Tkachuk?) Hossa will eventually be inducted.

I think Elias will get in even though he "only" won two Cups. Won't be surprised if Kessel gets in if he hits 1000 points, especially if he wins at least one more Cup as well.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Glenn Anderson, Clark Gillies and Dick Duff would have never made the HHOF without their contributions to Stanley Cup Championships (and these guys were complementary players). I'm not sure Mullen would be a HHOF'er without his Cup wins in Calgary and Pittsburgh (the fact he was American may have gotten him in regardless). Does Joe Nieuwendyk get in without his three Cups?

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but the HHOF seems to have a thing for players who contribute to more than two Championships and have good or better than good careers otherwise (other than Cups, what puts Nieuwendyk above Turgeon or Roenick or Anderson, Gillies or Duff above LeClair or Tkachuk?) Hossa will eventually be inducted.

I think Elias will get in even though he "only" won two Cups. Won't be surprised if Kessel gets in if he hits 1000 points, especially if he wins at least one more Cup as well.

I definitely agree that the HoF has taken team success into account in their inductions far too much. Seems to be an old school way of thinking, and the HOF voters are mostly a bunch of dinosaurs.

 

[b in vancouver]

@b in vancouver

That’s not an expalantion. Saying “if you don’t see it, then I don’t know what to tell you” is such a scapegoat statement for someone who can’t truly, and easily explain it. What was so special about his captaincy? Was it that unique? That revolutionary? No. Dustin Brown captained his team to two stanley cups, with your logic...he’s not far from Toews, who only has one more.

Your defining the term “influential” as being just an overall good player. They aren’t the same. Toews was in no way “influential” to anyone than maybe outside of his team(he is the captain). But his influence isn’t some league wide or international phenomenon. If he had never won a cup, we wouldn’t even be talking about this....that’s how influential he is.

The last ten years? Maybe....but the difference is tier couldn’t be any more noticeable....

Jagr
Thornton
Iginla
Crosby
Malkin
Ovechkin
Hossa
MSL
Datsyuk
Sedins

That’s 10 who are very much so future HOFers, then you have guys like Chara and Lundqvist.

Is there an argument? Absolutely....but it really doesn’t matter. He already made his mark in the hockey world and they will always remind us of how he “lead” a team to 3 stanley cups. That will always be his ticket into the Hall. It’s a weak argument, but it looks and sounds nice.

I meant guys within that 10 years by that generation of players. - not the older group.

Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Bergeron, Keith, Doughty, P. Kane, Karlsson - and Toews. Out of that generation of players those are the guys you can pretty much bank on going to the Hall - and deservedly so.

I like Getzlaf more than Toews by a landslide - Getzlaf has been a better player - but 100% Toews has a better HHOF resume than him. And I could have said I like Weber, etc. more also but realistically Toews has simply achieved more. Tow major individual awards, three Stanley Cups (as captain and one of their best players), tonnes of golds in international hockey. What do you think it takes?

And yes - 'influential'. Between him and Bergeron, they've affected the way centre is played nowadays more than anyone in recent memory.

 

[Jtown]

I meant guys within that 10 years by that generation of players. - not the older group.

Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Bergeron, Keith, Doughty, P. Kane, Karlsson - and Toews. Out of that generation of players those are the guys you can pretty much bank on going to the Hall - and deservedly so.

I like Getzlaf more than Toews by a landslide - Getzlaf has been a better player - but 100% Toews has a better HHOF resume than him. And I could have said I like Weber, etc. more also but realistically Toews has simply achieved more. Tow major individual awards, three Stanley Cups (as captain and one of their best players), tonnes of golds in international hockey. What do you think it takes?

And yes - 'influential'. Between him and Bergeron, they've affected the way centre is played nowadays more than anyone in recent memory.

2nd place hart finish > selke.

 

[b in vancouver]

2nd place hart finish > selke.

Questionable.
Toews, Kopitar and Bergeron have six Stanley Cups between them.
Selke is a major award and trumps a second place finish across the board. Unless the player has half a dozen like Brad Park or something.

And Conn Smythe trumps second place Hart finish. - and I love Getzlaf. One of my favourite players. I like him a lot more that Toews... trust me. Him and Bergeron were my dark horse picks to win the Hart going into last season and my bet to meet in the finals. And they are both there again this year.

 

[Jtown]

Questionable.
Toews, Kopitar and Bergeron have six Stanley Cups between them.

again. 2nd place hart finish trumps a freaking selke trophy.

Cups are a team accomplishment. Toews won a conn symthe in which Patrick Kane scored the winning goal in the cup finals and was as impactful. The two biggest goals of those playoffs for chicago were both scored by kane.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Questionable.
Toews, Kopitar and Bergeron have six Stanley Cups between them.
Selke is a major award and trumps a second place finish across the board. Unless the player has half a dozen like Brad Park or something.

And Conn Smythe trumps second place Hart finish. - and I love Getzlaf. One of my favourite players. I like him a lot more that Toews... trust me. Him and Bergeron were my dark horse picks to win the Hart going into last season and my bet to meet in the finals. And they are both there again this year.

I think you're drawing a conclusion based on circumstantial evidence.

I could also say that Crosby, Malkin, Kane, and Kuznetsov have a combined 10 Stanley Cups between them. None of them have come close to winning a Selke.

 

[b in vancouver]

I think you're drawing a conclusion based on circumstantial evidence.

I could also say that Crosby, Malkin, Kane, and Kuznetsov have a combined 10 Stanley Cups between them. None of them have come close to winning a Selke.

'Questionable' was quite honestly the first word I used so can't see me drawing any conclusions in that statement.
and that Crosy, Malkin and P. Kane are on my list with with those three also - plus those three all actually won the Hart and have multiple other awards.

Or are you saying Kuznetsov is more worthy of The Hall than Bergeron, Kopitar or Toews?

p.s. Kopitar was third last year and Bergeron would've most likely been if he hadn't gotten hurt.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I meant guys within that 10 years by that generation of players. - not the older group.

Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Bergeron, Keith, Doughty, P. Kane, Karlsson - and Toews. Out of that generation of players those are the guys you can pretty much bank on going to the Hall - and deservedly so.

I like Getzlaf more than Toews by a landslide - Getzlaf has been a better player - but 100% Toews has a better HHOF resume than him. And I could have said I like Weber, etc. more also but realistically Toews has simply achieved more. Tow major individual awards, three Stanley Cups (as captain and one of their best players), tonnes of golds in international hockey. What do you think it takes?

And yes - 'influential'. Between him and Bergeron, they've affected the way centre is played nowadays more than anyone in recent memory.

Those players have all played the last 10 years though. That’s why I listed them.

The interesting thing is all those players have the individual talent and accolades to be HOF worthy, while some have the playoffs success to go with it. Toews is probably the only one without the talent and individual success that many of those guys have.

I agree. He has a HOF worthy resume, but he isn’t a HOF talent. And his career is mainly team success. Getzlaf IMO is still a borderline player. He achieved more based on being on better teams, and as much as he contributed, the Hawks or team Canada’s success doesn’t fall on Toews. Cups aren’t individual awards, but we bend that role with Toews because we look at his Captaincy as something significant to their success, which it isn’t. It’s the talent.

That’s a pretty big stretch.....how did Toews and Bergeron influence the way centers are played? Centers had been utilized the same way for years before the Hawks.....you forget that Bergeron, Toews, and even Kopitar had elite defenseman, high level scoring, with great-elite goaltending....Who is to say it’s the center position the difference?

Toews isn’t doing anything more special than any other defensive or two way player, he just had one of the best supporting cast in the league. That makes a difference.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

'Questionable' was quite honestly the first word I used so can't see me drawing any conclusions in that statement.
and that Crosy, Malkin and P. Kane are on my list with with those three also - plus those three all actually won the Hart and have multiple other awards.

Or are you saying Kuznetsov is more worthy of The Hall than Bergeron, Kopitar or Toews?

p.s. Kopitar was third last year and Bergeron would've most likely been if he hadn't gotten hurt.

Apologies if I jumped in the middle of a broader discussion. My post was more directed at what I assumed was you making a connection between Selke winning forwards being more important to winning Cups than an offensive forward like Getzlaf, and based that on their combined Cups as proof. So I mentioned four guys who have more combined Cups who aren't Selke winners or even close to Selke winners to prove the "more Cups" argument is a weak one.

 

[GreatGonzo]

again. 2nd place hart finish trumps a freaking selke trophy.

Cups are a team accomplishment. Toews won a conn symthe in which Patrick Kane scored the winning goal in the cup finals and was as impactful. The two biggest goals of those playoffs for chicago were both scored by kane.

Anytime your a Hart Finalists, that’s going to better than a Selke. Your among one of the players voted as most valuable to your team, how is that not more prestigious?

Kane had 8 points in those 6 games with the game winning goal, while Toews was trying to figure out how not to be a liability. That’s whats puzzling about the Smythe, it’s not like basketball where it goes to the best player in the finals, you can have a beastly 1st and 2nd round, and totally flop in the next two and still win MVP. Toews flopped hard in the finals, but like you stated, it’s such a team effort, that it took his team to win the series....did he help get them there in a big way? Yes, but he couldn’t finish the job.

Questionable.
Toews, Kopitar and Bergeron have six Stanley Cups between them.
Selke is a major award and trumps a second place finish across the board. Unless the player has half a dozen like Brad Park or something.

And Conn Smythe trumps second place Hart finish. - and I love Getzlaf. One of my favourite players. I like him a lot more that Toews... trust me. Him and Bergeron were my dark horse picks to win the Hart going into last season and my bet to meet in the finals. And they are both there again this year.

The Selke definitely takes a back seat to the Hart, Art Ross, Lindsay, Norris, and Vezina. It’s very media driven as well, seeing how Toews one and only Selke win....Bergeron had more first place votes.

a Smythe absolutely does not trump a Hart Finalists....that’s ridiculous. Williams won a Smythe, I didn’t hear anyone saying he was better than Getzlaf. The fact is only three people have won smythes that were ever Hart candidates since the lockout ....There is a reason for that. Toews has never been a Hart Finalists, and there is a reason for that. The Smythe isn’t reserved for the best, only for the player who played the best in the post season, and as we have seen...that can be anyone, it doesn’t have to be an elite player.

 

[b in vancouver]

Apologies if I jumped in the middle of a broader discussion. My post was more directed at what I assumed was you making a connection between Selke winning forwards being more important to winning Cups than an offensive forward like Getzlaf, and based that on their combined Cups as proof. So I mentioned four guys who have more combined Cups who aren't Selke winners or even close to Selke winners to prove the "more Cups" argument is a weak one.

I find myself in the strange position of defending Jonathan Toews, which is uncharted territory for me. As a player I found him over-rated much of the time but now it seems like everyone's jumping on his last two years as proof that he hasn't had a great career. Sure, he was on some powerhouse Blackhawk and Canadian teams and there's a handful of other centres that probably would have had just as much success in his position - but we won't know - and it did happen.

I just kind of draw a line between talent and HOF resumes.
Getzlaf is a good example of this. (I hope and expect him to get in) Getzlaf is a better player than Perry - but at the moment Perry has a better HHOF resume. There's a few guys from the past 10-15 years ('03 draft and on) that there's going to be some tough calls on. - I just think that Toews hardware puts him in that top group of 10 (probably right there at 10) but ahead of guys like Getzlaf, Giroux, Backstrom, Weber, Perry, E. Staal, Subban, Burns, etc.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

again. 2nd place hart finish trumps a freaking selke trophy.

It should be pointed out that Toews has a 4th place Hart finish.

 

[b in vancouver]

Those players have all played the last 10 years though. That’s why I listed them.

The interesting thing is all those players have the individual talent and accolades to be HOF worthy, while some have the playoffs success to go with it. Toews is probably the only one without the talent and individual success that many of those guys have.

I agree. He has a HOF worthy resume, but he isn’t a HOF talent. And his career is mainly team success. Getzlaf IMO is still a borderline player. He achieved more based on being on better teams, and as much as he contributed, the Hawks or team Canada’s success doesn’t fall on Toews. Cups aren’t individual awards, but we bend that role with Toews because we look at his Captaincy as something significant to their success, which it isn’t. It’s the talent.

That’s a pretty big stretch.....how did Toews and Bergeron influence the way centers are played? Centers had been utilized the same way for years before the Hawks.....you forget that Bergeron, Toews, and even Kopitar had elite defenseman, high level scoring, with great-elite goaltending....Who is to say it’s the center position the difference?

Toews isn’t doing anything more special than any other defensive or two way player, he just had one of the best supporting cast in the league. That makes a difference.

When I mentioned 10 years I meant guys whom will all retire within the same 5 year window or so - like from the '03 draft and onwards, as that's whom Toews is up against for the Hall. Not Iggy or Dats or Thornton or Lidstrom or Jagr, etc. I thought that was a given.

As far as influencing the game and how it's played. I'll stand by that. Before Bergeron, Toews and co. came into the league there was a lot less focus on the defensive side or the 200ft game by 1st or 2nd line centres. There were always some like Saku Koivu and others but other more offensive centres and other coaches took notice - that despite being more gifted than these guys, players like Toews and Bergeron were dictating their shifts. And they started rounding out their games. From Sid on down - there's simply been more focus on the defensive side of the game than there was before and I think that's a direct result of them and a couple other guys.

 

[GreatGonzo]

When I mentioned 10 years I meant guys whom will all retire within the same 5 year window or so - like from the '03 draft and onwards, as that's whom Toews is up against for the Hall. Not Iggy or Dats or Thornton or Lidstrom or Jagr, etc. I thought that was a given.

As far as influencing the game and how it's played. I'll stand by that. Before Bergeron, Toews and co. came into the league there was a lot less focus on the defensive side or the 200ft game by 1st or 2nd line centres. There were always some like Saku Koivu and others but other more offensive centres and other coaches took notice - that despite being more gifted than these guys, players like Toews and Bergeron were dictating their shifts. And they started rounding out their games. From Sid on down - there's simply been more focus on the defensive side of the game than there was before and I think that's a direct result of them and a couple other guys.

I mean not really. It’s just a misunderstanding, but you clearly said over the past 10 years, not 10 years from now. And since ‘03 is not a 10 year span. Toews competition is relatively weak for his age group for sure.

That’s just not true....What exactly makes you think that? Detroit was doing it long before the hawks ever did. And they won multiple championships. Other teams had guys who were defensive studs on the first/second line, only the hawks, as a whole, had basically the perfect amount of everything. Your over emphasizing the idea that a two way number one center is the key to a championship, and that’s somehow what Toews and Bergeron did.....except your leaving our other key pieces that those teams possessed. There hasn’t been more focus on defense, we just have a more system based style of hockey that every team abides by. It’s not longer fluid and creative, just by a certain standard the coach makes. The Hawks chemistry worked, not because they have Toews has a two way star, but because they had guys like Bolland and Kruger....Keith and Hjalmarsson.....Sharp and Kane, as well as another two way guys like Hossa. You can’t put one type of player as the most influential, given the fact that those players wouldn’t have won if not for those other key players.

What about Kopitar? He’s been his teams best offensive AND defensive player for years...putting up great numbers playing a very defensive system. He hasn’t had the linemates to benefit from like Bergeron, and especially Toews has. He’s more unique in many more ways.

Toews and Bergerons play didn’t “inspire” or change the way other centers needed to play though. Crosby simply matured as a player and wanted to round out more and get better in certain areas....and that didn’t result in him winning more cups.

It should be pointed out that Toews has a 4th place Hart finish.

That’s still not being a Hart Finalists, and that was his best finish by a long shot. His two best post seasons, he wasn’t close to being considered. Even his other years being a Selke Finalists, he still wasn’t there.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

That’s still not being a Hart Finalists, and that was his best finish by a long shot. His two best post seasons, he wasn’t close to being considered. Even his other years being a Selke Finalists, he still wasn’t there.

To the bolded, I guess I'm not sure what your getting at there.

He wasn't a finalist no, but he was 4th instead finishing 2% behind Tavares. My point isn't to say, Toews was a 4th place Hart finisher so he belongs in the hall. My point is to say that it seams silly to use never a Hart finalist as some sort of hard and fast rule when he didn't make that cutoff on the basis of a couple of votes.

	2012-13 Hart voting						1	2	3	4	5
3	John Tavares	22	NYI	C	919	51.34	38	38	33	29	21
4	Jonathan Toews	24	CHI	C	886	49.5	39	35	29	29	19

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Also, he finished 6th 2 years prior.

 

[GreatGonzo]

To the bolded, I guess I'm not sure what your getting at there.

He wasn't a finalist no, but he was 4th instead finishing 2% behind Tavares. My point isn't to say, Toews was a 4th place Hart finisher so he belongs in the hall. My point is to say that it seams silly to use never a Hart finalist as some sort of hard and fast rule when he didn't make that cutoff on the bases of a couple of votes.

	2012-13 Hart voting						1	2	3	4	5
3	John Tavares	22	NYI	C	919	51.34	38	38	33	29	21
4	Jonathan Toews	24	CHI	C	886	49.5	39	35	29	29	19

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Also, he finished 6th 2 years prior.

We are talking about the idea of a Hart Finalists not being as good as a Smythe. Toews did finish 4th, my point was going more towards that argument. It just got confusing.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

We are talking about the idea of a Hart Finalists not being as good as a Smythe. Toews did finish 4th, my point was going more forwards that argument.

Ah, fair enough.