Is Tim Thomas HHOF or HHOVG?

[Howie Hodge]

I wouldn't trust my opinion on him. The wallpaper on my cellphone has been either Giguere or Manon Rheaume for the last decade.

Yyyyyessss...........

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

There have been comments kind of implying that longevity is overrated or not necessary. The problem I have is that at some point, every player winds up in a sweet spot (favourable coach, good linemates, whatever). But if you move around, play long enough or play internationally... eventually we'll see if you can succeed outside of those ideal conditions. We never got to see Thomas succeed without Julien-Chara-Bergeron.

and we never got to see Dryden succeed without Robinson, Savard, Richard and LaFleur...that's a slippery slope I dont think you want to tread on

 

[Plural]

Being an average goaltender for a prolonged period of time has value. A significant amount of value.

For evidence, consider the contracts that are regularly given to average goaltenders, and consider all of the playoff teams who wish that they'd had average goaltending.

Yup. Being an average goaltender is like being an average #1C or #1D. The word average is bit misleading since the 15th best goaltender in the NHL is most likely 15th best goaltender in the world. Being that good for 4-5 seasons is more than majority of goalies in the league ever do.

 

[Michael Farkas]

and we never got to see Dryden succeed without Robinson, Savard, Richard and LaFleur...that's a slippery slope I dont think you want to tread on

I think that's very valid actually. Proper talent evaluation exists to settle these disputes. But Dryden's lack of longevity and homogenous situation lowers his value to the bottom of the Big 7 for me certainly...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

and we never got to see Dryden succeed without Robinson, Savard, Richard and LaFleur...that's a slippery slope I dont think you want to tread on

you are aware of the time ken dryden upset the greatest regular season bruins team of all time en route to the conn smythe right?

 

[Canadiens1958]

and we never got to see Dryden succeed without Robinson, Savard, Richard and LaFleur...that's a slippery slope I dont think you want to tread on

1971 Dryden did very well without Savard -injured and Robinson and Lafleur, both playing junior.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

you are aware of the time The Canadiens upset the greatest regular season bruins team of all time en route to the conn smythe right?

fixed.

you are aware that Dryden allowed 25 goals (3.57 GAA) in that series, right?

 

[Killion]

fixed.

you are aware that Dryden allowed 25 goals (3.57 GAA) in that series, right?

Yeah, thats cool though. Dryden played all 20 games for the Habs in 71 on their way to the Cup & I dont believe they'd have made it without him. One of the Greatest Displays of Goaltending I've ever seen... gotta give credit where its due. Overall he had a 3.01 GAA, .914 SV%, winning 12, losing 8 games in what was a pretty wide open affair start to finish through Boston, Minny & Chicago. I & others I'm sure sometimes wondered how he'd have faired on a lesser team through the 70's, faced a lot more rubber, net crashing & so on, and based on what we did see of him I have no doubt he'd have been a Superstar with any team provided he was able to stay healthy physically. Its not as easy some might imagine staying sharp playing behind a great club.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

fixed.

you are aware that Dryden allowed 25 goals (3.57 GAA) in that series, right?

that bruins team was averaged over 5 goals/game in the regular season.

come on, man, that was arguably the greatest offensive juggernaut of all time. they had three players in the top 4 in goals, all five guys in the top 5 in assists (and another tied for 6th), and the top four scorers, plus #s 7, 8, and 9. orr and espo setting records that they themselves would not equal again. and so on.

dryden was spectacular and you know it.

 

[quoipourquoi]

fixed.

you are aware that Dryden allowed 25 goals (3.57 GAA) in that series, right?

Ken Dryden allowed 25 GA on 285 shots against a team that averaged 35.92 goals per 285 shots. Good for a 69.6 EvE, which for a more recent comparison is statistically in the range of finalists like 1999/2000 Ed Belfour (70.6/70.2) and 2000/2003 Martin Brodeur (70.8/68.8).

And that's just his statistical average which gets anchored down by a blowout loss. 7 of those 25 GA came in one game, meaning he held them to 18 goals on 229 shots in the other 6 games - of which he needed to (and did) win 4 games.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I thought this was interesting. Other than one encounter with Johnny Boychuk, Tim Thomas hadn’t been in any sort of contact with any of his former Bruins teammates until this week. That seems almost impossible in today’s environment.

There’s also maybe a tone of... regret? at letting it go that long. Might speak to the journey he’s taken mentally over the past decade.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

I think the best he gets is the Bruins retiring his number. I mean he did win the Stanley Cup, Conn Smythe, two Vezinas and the Jennings while playing for them. 378 wins too which I would question, but when you add it to the other things he did, if you ask me he deserves it.

But he's a long shot for the Hall of Fame.

 

[seventieslord]

I think the best he gets is the Bruins retiring his number. I mean he did win the Stanley Cup, Conn Smythe, two Vezinas and the Jennings while playing for them. 378 wins too which I would question, but when you add it to the other things he did, if you ask me he deserves it.

But he's a long shot for the Hall of Fame.

378 is his GP. He has 196 wins for Boston.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I think the best he gets is the Bruins retiring his number. I mean he did win the Stanley Cup, Conn Smythe, two Vezinas and the Jennings while playing for them. 378 wins too which I would question, but when you add it to the other things he did, if you ask me he deserves it.

But he's a long shot for the Hall of Fame.

i don’t believe any of cheevers, thompson, or brimsek had their numbers retired so it looks like tim tom is probably out of luck on that front.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

i don’t believe any of cheevers, thompson, or brimsek had their numbers retired so it looks like tim tom is probably out of luck on that front.

Forgive the digression- but the agglomeration of Bruins Retired Numbers are a varied lot-
Orr/Bourque/Shore (beyond obvious)
P. Esposito (obvious)
Schmidt/Clapper (worthy)
Bucyk (justifiable in an Alex Delvecchio kind-of-way)
Cam Neely (understandable, if somewhat sentimental)

[After he hangs 'em up, the Chara jersey is probably headed to the rafters, too. I'd place that one in the "worthy" column.]

Then come the "I'm-not-so-sure-about-that-Yogi" laureates. Hitchman? Middleton? Terry O'Reilly?!?

I suppose I didn't say a kind word about Cowley in the entire "top-100" project... but he's objectively a more significant contributor to meaningful Bruins success than Neely, to say nothing of the other three guys south of him. Brimsek, of course, has greatness known to anyone who bothers to look into his record.

Bottom line is that there are better and worse Hall-of-Famers than Thomas- and there are more and less worthy Boston retired numbers than Thomas. Having said that, if Thomas has his number retired, and Brimsek remains un-honored, that would be quite ritardato. Probably moreso than Cheevers in the HoF, but Thomas not.

Ultimately, I agree with several posters than (pace Cheevers), the HoF standard for goalies is too high for Thomas to have a realistic chance. And as the memories of his on-ice playoff performances fade, those chances will inevitably decrease. I feel a little wistful about that, but it's not exactly like it's a howling injustice, either.

 

[VanIslander]

Only 5 seasons of significant wins, two of which were great.

214 career wins? (19 goalies in the NHL today already have more)

One great playoffs with a single series win beside that.

His only international appearances: Olympic backup, four world championship tourneys, EACH & EVERY one as a backup, not the starter.

No way should Thomas be inducted. It is ridiculous.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I thought this was interesting. Other than one encounter with Johnny Boychuk, Tim Thomas hadn’t been in any sort of contact with any of his former Bruins teammates until this week. That seems almost impossible in today’s environment.

There’s also maybe a tone of... regret? at letting it go that long. Might speak to the journey he’s taken mentally over the past decade.

OK, so following up on that thought... this is a lot sadder and a lot more ominous for the game of hockey than it looked at first.

https://apnews.com/a823a8e35563303b028294912736d048

Doctors told Tim Thomas that two-thirds of his brain were getting less than 5% blood flow and the other third was averaging about 50%.

His wife, Melissa, and oldest daughter, Kiley, started crying. Thomas didn’t react — because he couldn’t process what he was hearing.

“I couldn’t believe it because I couldn’t function well enough to understand it,” he said.
...
“I woke up the next morning after it, and I couldn’t decide what I wanted to eat, where I wanted to go,” Thomas said. “I couldn’t plan a schedule. I survived by following the team schedule the rest of the year and just made it through that season.”

He then hung up his skates.

Thomas struggled to communicate with anyone, let alone watch hockey, in ensuing years. He couldn’t keep up with games, and he moved with his family to the woods to get away. He didn’t talk to his former teammates or even call his father.

The brain scan occurred a year after his retirement, and his thoughts wandered to his career and the hits he took to the head.
...
Thomas on Wednesday attended his first NHL game since retiring and got to see some old Bruins teammates and friends behind the scenes. He’s not interested in getting involved with the game again in part because he thinks of the damage it caused him.

 

[The Wizard of Oz]

The longer time passes the more I lean towards his induction. He’s one of the post lockout era to hit that elite level of play and then actually got the job done. Not to mention he beat Luongo “head to head” for his Cup and MVP. Although his NHL career wasn’t long he only had one average season for Boston with the rest being above average to elite. It’s a great story to tell being able to battle your way through the lower leagues and Europe and become the best in the world after age 30. Or was a great story, it’s tragic to hear about his brain injury.

 

[psycat]

HHOF for sure in my book, but I am one of those who prefer peak over longveity- preferably a player got both obviously but in this case his peak is so high I think he belongs regardless.

 

[Garbageyuk]

As a Habs fan: he should be in no question. He accomplished everything every goaltender dreams of. No kid puts on the pads and dreams of winning "x amount of regular season games". That is pretty much the only argument against him - longevity. Not enough of an issue to keep him out, imo.

 

[ted2019]

his career is a lot like Sandy Koufax's career. both had short careers with incredibly high peaks.

I get why length is a detriment to his case for some. Just seems weird that essentially saying "well if he added 4-5 average to his career he'd be in". Doesn't make sense to say someone needed more sub great seasons to make the HOF.

Except that Koufax was a generational pitcher, while Thomas had 2 incredible seasons in 9 years.

 

[Voight]

I think the best he gets is the Bruins retiring his number. I mean he did win the Stanley Cup, Conn Smythe, two Vezinas and the Jennings while playing for them. 378 wins too which I would question, but when you add it to the other things he did, if you ask me he deserves it.

But he's a long shot for the Hall of Fame.

Bill Durnan is in FYI.....

The longer time passes the more I lean towards his induction. He’s one of the post lockout era to hit that elite level of play and then actually got the job done. Not to mention he beat Luongo “head to head” for his Cup and MVP. Although his NHL career wasn’t long he only had one average season for Boston with the rest being above average to elite. It’s a great story to tell being able to battle your way through the lower leagues and Europe and become the best in the world after age 30. Or was a great story, it’s tragic to hear about his brain injury.

Agreed, and his 2011 playoff run was one of the best (by a goalie) in the last 30 or so years FWIW. Guy was unstoppable that year.

If he refuses to visit a Bush II White House instead of an Obama White House is the press a little easier on him?

(Trump being an obvious outlier)

Yes. Without a doubt.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Where would Thomas rank among some of the other hotly debated "HOF/HOVG bubble" goalies such as CuJo, Osgood or Barrasso?

 

[Michael Farkas]

1. Cujo



2. Barrasso


3. Osgood


Uhhh...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Where would Thomas rank among some of the other hotly debated "HOF/HOVG bubble" goalies such as CuJo, Osgood or Barrasso?

I have it

1) Barrasso
2) Cujo
3) Thomas
(gap)
4) Osgood