Is Tim Thomas HHOF or HHOVG?

[Kyle McMahon]

Voted neither. One great, but overrated playoff run. Two great regular seasons, in between which he was put on waivers and went unclaimed. The rest of the league apparently realized his great numbers were largely a product of the system. One of the most unlikely underdog/out of nowhere stories you'll ever see, so I suppose he has the "Fame" aspect covered for that reason.

I guess it depends on one's definition of "Hall of Very Good". In my own mind I'd say maybe the best 20 goaltenders not in the actual HOF are who I think of for this. Thomas doesn't make that cut for me.

 

[acor]

TBH, I think he should, but he won't... At first, HHOF is very hard on goalies, at second-hockey fans are obsessed about so called "career achievments", wich are second most overrated thing in hockey IMO (first is draft)... I think 3 great years are more hall worthy that 15 years of good career and accumulated stats...

 

[Michael Farkas]

Typically, I would agree with the notion that a bunch of so-so to good seasons don't do much for a HOF case...but in this instance, it would prove he was an NHL talent. He was only NHL caliber in a very finite set of circumstances. Bergeron/Chara/Julien for the most part.

Outside of his time under Julien he gives up 3 goals a game or whatever. And it's not like he put together a Dryden like career even for us to overlook it.

For me, he is one of the worst goaltenders I have ever seen at this level and am highly suspicious of his ability to do anything outside of that one spot where every goalie got their numbers plumped.

I wouldn't give him a sash that said "Hall Monitor" much less anything noteworthy...he's Cechmanek with a Cup because his team made a superhuman offensive effort whereas Cechmanek's didn't score in an entire series...

 

[quoipourquoi]

Typically, I would agree with the notion that a bunch of so-so to good seasons don't do much for a HOF case...but in this instance, it would prove he was an NHL talent. He was only NHL caliber in a very finite set of circumstances. Bergeron/Chara/Julien for the most part.

Outside of his time under Julien he gives up 3 goals a game or whatever. And it's not like he put together a Dryden like career even for us to overlook it.

For me, he is one of the worst goaltenders I have ever seen at this level and am highly suspicious of his ability to do anything outside of that one spot where every goalie got their numbers plumped.

I wouldn't give him a sash that said "Hall Monitor" much less anything noteworthy...he's Cechmanek with a Cup because his team made a superhuman offensive effort whereas Cechmanek's didn't score in an entire series...

This is where I talk about him joining the Bruins in the second-half of 2005-06 and putting up top-10 numbers, and then you talk about 2006-07, and then I mention that his even strength numbers in 2006-07 weren't bad at all but a lack of discipline made him look worse than he was - something greatly improved in 2007-08 even if the penalty kill itself was still poor, and then you talk about Rask replacing him in 2009-10, and I say that Thomas had surgery after 2008-09 and that Rask was really good so he probably would have challenged most #1s but especially older ones recovering from surgery, and you say it means less because the Vezinas weren't consecutive, and I say there's still two of them, and you talk about a weak goal in the Stanley Cup Finals, and I say it was still one of the better Stanley Cup Finals in history, and then we freeze frame while the credits roll until this time next week.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, I woke up a little hungover...my bad. There's no new information to present.

Except this: When a work conference is doling out free 1800 tequila, i will not resist. That's new only to you guys though haha...

 

[Killion]

This is where I talk about him joining the Bruins in the second-half of 2005-06 and putting up top-10 numbers, and then you talk about 2006-07, and then I mention that his even strength numbers in 2006-07 weren't bad at all but a lack of discipline made him look worse than he was - something greatly improved in 2007-08 even if the penalty kill itself was still poor, and then you talk about Rask replacing him in 2009-10, and I say that Thomas had surgery after 2008-09 and that Rask was really good so he probably would have challenged most #1s but especially older ones recovering from surgery, and you say it means less because the Vezinas weren't consecutive, and I say there's still two of them, and you talk about a weak goal in the Stanley Cup Finals, and I say it was still one of the better Stanley Cup Finals in history, and then we freeze frame while the credits roll until this time next week.

... then you say your hungry and feel like a snack... then Mrs qpq asks what would you like... and you say some Orville Redenbacher, microwave, we got any?.... Mrs qpq suggests thats not good for you, very likely coronary inducing.... and you say not as coronary blood shooting out of the eyeball inducing as the conversation I just had on hf about Tim Thomas.... your wife then asks who's Tim Thomas.... you tell her all about him, 35 minute lecture.... she looks at you bored and tells you that your wrong, that Timmy was an inconsistent sieve who "got lucky" and is really just a bad version of Gary Suitcase-Headcase Smith, 3rd stringer.... Gobsmacked, you retire to the kitchen, make your popcorn, retreat to the walk-in closet, shrine to Felix the Cat, Martin Brodeur & all things Holy Goalie & begin munching on your popcorn when... your cell phone goes off.... its one of your beer leaguer Buddies..... got himself involved in an ATD on-line.... wants your advice on who to pick.... Thomas or Rask... and so it begins again..... and again and again and again.... you can run qpq... but you cant hide... not even in the sanctuary of your Shrine... not even with the lights out...

 

[BlueBull]

This gets asked a lot. I think Thomas had a real shot when the buzzer sounded in Game 7 of the 2011 Finals. If everything freeze-frames there, he becomes a really interesting case for the voters. Even midway through the next season, there was a lot of attention to the case he was building game-by-game.

Then in January of 2012, it all started falling apart. First he made the victors' White House visit a debacle, then he loses the first round in OT of game 7 (which is what brought Holtby to the forefront). Then he drops off the team abruptly for political reasons, going into his "mountain bunker" phase. During his break from hockey the Bruins trade him unceremoniously to the Islanders for a conditional draft pick. Comes back with the Panthers, and doesn't look great. Goes to the stars and looks even worse, eventually retiring as a backup only 3 years removed from a legendary season.

His HHOF case died in that middle paragraph. He put off a ton of people with his behavior in leaving Boston, and really undermined his prior performances with an awful comeback attempt. There's still something of an intriguing case on paper, but I don't think a lot of people really put their heart into arguing for him anymore, and at the end of the day it's about the vote and not the stats.

To be Far, he was 38 by then. So it was almost impossible for him to not fall off at that age, unless he had some Jagr-esque Gene.
If he wanted a longer career he maybe should of gotten the chance to play at least backup minutes a couple year pre-lockout. Maybe that might of helped his Career.
Tim's career reminds me of a guy like Johnny Bower. Short Career, with an Insane Peak.

 

[Spirit of 67]

Hall of Note Worthy.

Incredibly good for a few years. Not nearly good enough career overall.

 

[tarheelhockey]

To be Far, he was 38 by then. So it was almost impossible for him to not fall off at that age, unless he had some Jagr-esque Gene.
If he wanted a longer career he maybe should of gotten the chance to play at least backup minutes a couple year pre-lockout. Maybe that might of helped his Career.
Tim's career reminds me of a guy like Johnny Bower. Short Career, with an Insane Peak.

My understanding of his career is that he always looked for opportunities to be a starter, even if it meant going outside the NHL pipeline in the process.

 

[Killion]

To be Far, he was 38 by then. So it was almost impossible for him to not fall off at that age, unless he had some Jagr-esque Gene.
If he wanted a longer career he maybe should of gotten the chance to play at least backup minutes a couple year pre-lockout. Maybe that might of helped his Career.
Tim's career reminds me of a guy like Johnny Bower. Short Career, with an Insane Peak.

... uh.... not exactly though I can appreciate, understand why youd make that comparison as both were in their 30's before playing regularly in the NHL, as Starters. Bower had a whole other life & career prior to joining the Leafs, winning multiple League Championships & personal trophies as MVP, Outstanding Goalie & so on at the AHL & WHL levels. His career at the pro level commencing in 1945 but yes, like Thomas a steep drop off once Father Time caught up with him though in Johnny's case not fully until maybe age 43 or so. Bower playing through an era when there were only 6 openings at the NHL level, no Backups. Tim Thomas on the other hand, very strange & circuitous route to the NHL. Very much an outlier, different breed from a Johnny Bower, the only commonality being the age thing. His (Thomas's) an interesting story, one of persistence, Great Peak, and I for one would actually support his induction into the HHOF.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Thomas tried and failed to make 26,28, 30 team NHL...Bower is not comparable...

 

[Barnum]

While I would have Tim Thomas making it just barely, I'd also like to emphasize the "just barely" part as well. While his case for peak performance is certainly strong, I also can't help but feel that there is still something lacking.

And I'm never one to worry about off-court/off-field/off-ice shenanigans. OJ Simpson deserves to be in Canton and Pete Rose deserves to be in Cooperstown in my books.

That is slightly flawed isn’t it? Pete Rose’s actions were not limited to off the field shenanigans, Rose bet on baseball while he was playing or coaching.

 

[Killion]

Thomas tried and failed to make 26,28, 30 team NHL...Bower is not comparable...

Exactly. The only comparable, commonality being age so understandable why someone would make that comparison superficially... synergies, similarities do exist. Scratch the surface however, and no, not so much. Differences rather stark, vast... As for Thomas's snubbing the White House, something that unfortunately overshadows his career personally I dont have an issue with it however I think the "Hockey Establishment" in the US did have & probably still does...

... that he wasnt obedient, compliant, that in not showing up he gave the team, the League & the game a bit of a black eye really pretty preposterous, beyond hypocritical considering what any number of Players & certainly Builders have pulled. Actual crimes. I dont like athletes, actors or musicians pontificating, using their celebrity to protest or criticize whatever regime or politician, policies etc but this, what Thomas did, seriously small potatos. It cant however be ignored as I'm dead certain its considered a black mark against him amongst the always insecure NHL establishment & that includes those on the HOF Induction Committee's.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Thomas tried and failed to make 26,28, 30 team NHL...Bower is not comparable...

that says more about the teams ability to evaluate talent than it does Thomas's ability.

Kurt Warner failed to make a 30 team NHL until he was 27...to the point where he was bagging groceries when St Louis signed him. Does that make his career any less impressive? are his 2 MVP trophies worth less? or his SB ring?

Warner's career also mirrors Thomas's in content too. He came out of nowhere and set the league on fire.

Over 3 seasons he won 2 MVPs, a SB, led the league in TD 2x...then disappeared for 5 years.

He resurfaced in Arizona and played well, but no where near his peak in St Louis. He had 1 last gasp playoff run in 08, reaching the SB.

He only has 5 full years as a starter, won 2 MVPs, 1 SB MVP, a SB and was 2x All Pro...he is seen as a pretty definite HOF'er.

Conversely, Thomas won 2 Vezinas, 1 Cup, 1 Smythe and 2x AS-1

 

[Pominville Knows]

In his 1996 World Championships Bronze Medal effort he played backup to the legendary Parris Duffus. Has to count as something?

But... He is a cool dude and i'm with Killion on this one, he should perhaps get in. That 1996 Bronze was part of his outlier path to fame.

 

[Killion]

that says more about the teams ability to evaluate talent than it does Thomas's ability....... Conversely, Thomas won 2 Vezinas, 1 Cup, 1 Smythe and 2x AS-1

... yeah I dont know about that quite so much BBB.... Thomas, some people in life, just take the roads less traveled, free-spirits. Thomas himself simply not willing to tow the line, sign, do his apprenticeships in the Minors, he knew better, that doing so would have made him unhappy, so opportunist to some, mental happiness to him more important. As I said his an interesting & unique story, he was when he finally did arrive after years of persistence quite the shooting star.

Technically brilliant (and believe me I know a little bit about goaltending), mentally exceptionally strong, on his game & got right into the heads of his opponents, no Tim Thomas no way the Bruins win. Reminded me a bit of Bernie Parent with the Flyers, Eddie Belfour in Dallas.... So ya, Tim Thomas, Hockey Nomad & Mercenary, unbelievable story on many levels, took his place amongst the rest of the stars in the galaxy & should be inducted. A story, a life & a career that should be honored, remembered for generations to come. Modern era story of persistence. Follow your heart, your dream, ignore the naysayers. Good for him. He reached for & grasped the Brass Ring. Never quit, never said die.

 

[Doctor No]

that says more about the teams ability to evaluate talent than it does Thomas's ability.

Teams gave Thomas plenty of opportunities to make it before he hit it big with the Bruins. Even the Bruins gave him a shot previously - did they suddenly get better at evaluating talent while Thomas was in Finland?

 

[Thenameless]

That is slightly flawed isn’t it? Pete Rose’s actions were not limited to off the field shenanigans, Rose bet on baseball while he was playing or coaching.

If you say so. For me, one of two players with over 4,000 hits (and the most hits outright in MLB history) tells me he was one of the very best and that he did not bet against his own team. He won two World Series with the BRM as one of their best players. I don't have a problem with a guy betting on other games, or his own team winning.

 

[Michael Farkas]

that says more about the teams ability to evaluate talent than it does Thomas's ability.

They evaluated just fine. He isn't talented. They were right. He worked out in spite of his best efforts.

 

[Barnum]

If you say so. For me, one of two players with over 4,000 hits (and the most hits outright in MLB history) tells me he was one of the very best and that he did not bet against his own team. He won two World Series with the BRM as one of their best players. I don't have a problem with a guy betting on other games, or his own team winning.

You have changed your argument. First post distinctly stated, you didn’t care about “off field” shenanigans but the problem with that statement is, Pete Rose bet on baseball while on the field. Now, you have revised a tad. So, really you do not care about betting or shenanigans at all, whether it’s on or off the field/ice/pitch and/or otherwise. That’s how you should have phrased it, instead of trying to minimize Rose’s history to off the field. That’s fine, I have no problem you have that opinion, just be more straightforward about it.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

without getting into whether thomas' 2011 playoffs was one of the greatest of all time or fairly average for a CS-winning goalie performance, whether his tugnutt-like peak stats tell us that he was hasek-lite or a system goalie, nor the quagmire of him not visiting the whitehouse and later retiring to spend his days stroking his gun collection in his bunker, and whether those two things are related, and whether his rightful legacy is being a locker room-dividing quitter or deserving to be serenaded by two million drunk bostonians singing auld lang syne out of tune, i think thomas' HHOF or even HOVG relevance raises an interesting methodological problem about how we evaluate goalies historically.

we, which is to say the hockey establishment but also HOH, put a huge amount of value in the year-to-year dependability of goalies. which makes sense, because if your star winger has an off-year, you probably have another guy who can give you 2/3 of that production and you can probably trade for or sign another guy to mostly make it up. a number one d, or a decent approximation, is harder to replace, and that's why most people have bourque ahead of potvin. but even then, you have six defensemen on your team, and probably a couple of guys in the minors who can credibly pull bottom pair duty.

but a goalie who can play 50-70 games? where are you going to find another one of those? boston was very lucky to have tuukka rask in 2010, epic 3-0 collapses within another epic 3-0 collapse notwithstanding, and again in 2013. and so it's important that your goalie can be counted on to be at least above average every year.

i wonder: is js giguere even a HOVG goalie? like thomas, his highs are crazy high. unlike thomas, he has a run where he is a legit starter for seven straight years, with a prime of 30 wins and top 10 vezina placement four out of five years. nestled within that prime, of course, are one of the greatest goalie performances of all time accompanied by a conn smythe, and a cup win that could easily have come with a second smythe and i wouldn't have blinked. but i'm willing to bet that if we were to do a top 200 goalies list guys like olie kolzig, sean burke, andy moog, nik khabibulin, and ryan miller would be ahead of giguere on most ballots.

whereas no sane person would have pavel bure behind mike gartner.

 

[Thenameless]

You have changed your argument. First post distinctly stated, you didn’t care about “off field” shenanigans but the problem with that statement is, Pete Rose bet on baseball while on the field. Now, you have revised a tad. So, really you do not care about betting or shenanigans at all, whether it’s on or off the field/ice/pitch and/or otherwise. That’s how you should have phrased it, instead of trying to minimize Rose’s history to off the field. That’s fine, I have no problem you have that opinion, just be more straightforward about it.

You are correct. I'm voting Pete Rose in because of his play.

 

[Doctor No]

i wonder: is js giguere even a HOVG goalie? like thomas, his highs are crazy high. unlike thomas, he has a run where he is a legit starter for seven straight years, with a prime of 30 wins and top 10 vezina placement four out of five years. nestled within that prime, of course, are one of the greatest goalie performances of all time accompanied by a conn smythe, and a cup win that could easily have come with a second smythe and i wouldn't have blinked. but i'm willing to bet that if we were to do a top 200 goalies list guys like olie kolzig, sean burke, andy moog, nik khabibulin, and ryan miller would be ahead of giguere on most ballots.

I have Giguere on the back end of my top forty, and significantly ahead of those you mention.

 

[Killion]

without getting into whether thomas' 2011 playoffs was one of the greatest of all time or fairly average for a CS-winning goalie performance, whether his tugnutt-like peak stats tell us that he was hasek-lite or a system goalie, nor the quagmire of him not visiting the whitehouse and later retiring to spend his days stroking his gun collection in his bunker.... but i'm willing to bet that if we were to do a top 200 goalies list guys like olie kolzig, sean burke, andy moog, nik khabibulin, and ryan miller would be ahead of giguere on most ballots.

... "stroking his gun collection in his bunker"?..... I liked this guy already but that, that pretty much puts him over the top vs.... gonna start a FB campaign.... Thomas for the HHOF..... and I guess I'd be in the "oddball" category with my ballot, because ya, I go for peak over longevity with goalies. Their just built different. Some guys have long NHL careers with several peaks & valleys, Sawchuk & Parent for example, others consistently solid (Plante, Roy, Belfour), others brilliant series & seasons then either gone completely, or like a Roger Crozier or a Jon Casey get injured, sick, get shuffled around or what have you, maybe peak again somewhere else briefly years later, maybe not. I dont mind, I appreciate the sort of "one hit wonders". Shooting stars as opposed to consistency & longevity & will, do rank some of them above those who were consistently solid.

 

[Sanf]

My understanding of his career is that he always looked for opportunities to be a starter, even if it meant going outside the NHL pipeline in the process.

Yeah he really wanted to play. When he played in Finland he demanded that he would play all the games. Basically every goalie wants to play, but he took it step further. There are reports and rumours about the tantrums if he was replaced or did not get to play. Don´t know if he matured on that one on his later years.

Still the real reason why he was always came back to Finland was that he couldn´t use his chances in NA.