Is Thomas Greiss Toast?

[DetroitRed]

There are FA goalies Yzerman could sign?
Bernier is so valuable to this team that if not traded for 1st then there's no point.
I do not see the problem for Yzerman signing him after the playoffs..

We have Bernier, Glendening, Ryan, Staal and Helm we can trade. I have no idea what Yzerman can get for them.

Merrill and Nemeth have expiring contracts, too. They might also be able to trade Mantha. He wouldn't come as a "rental," but that still might appeal to certain teams. I really think that in the right situation, he'd be a 30-goal scorer.

 

[jaster]

I never suggested Greiss was superior.
And I never wanted to waive Bernier. I said the only way to claim the goalie, Nedwhatever, would be to waive another goalie - and i said Bernier because he was a UFA and Greiss has another year left.
But I still didn't think it was feasible.
"I think I'd keep Bernier and trade him at the deadline."
Which would still be my plan if Greiss was giving us passable goaltending.

You can say you didn't want to waive Bernier all you want, but the reality is also that you labeled Bernier a replacement-level player (meaning: waiver-worthy), suggested waiving him for a washed up prospect was possibly the way to go, and said that if we did so, "that would be fine" (even though the guy you wanted was far closer to replacement level than Bernier).

Bernier has been nothing short of impressive for this team down the stretch last season and throughout this one. Will he keep it up? It's anyone's guess. But to this point, your hot takes regarding Jonathan Bernier have been ridiculous.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Merrill and Nemeth have expiring contracts, too. They might also be able to trade Mantha. He wouldn't come as a "rental," but that still might appeal to certain teams. I really think that in the right situation, he'd be a 30-goal scorer.

How dare you suggest trading Merrill and the mullet.

Nemeth could probably get a 3rd. Shit, Andy Greene at age 37 got a 2nd last year.

Mantha is worth a good haul if we ship him out. It was nice to see Mantha score a goal last night, but it might be what's best for all parties involved at this point.

 

[RedMenace]

click-bait site has us trading Bernier @ low price.

Also says: "Thomas Greiss has been outstanding for the Red Wings as of late. That's why he's the least likely candidate to be traded at the deadline. According to The Athletic, Jonathan Bernier is reportedly on the way out of Detroit...."

Rumor: Red Wings To Trade Former Leafs Goaltender - NHL Rumors - NHLTradeRumors.Me

That... well, that seems completely backward.

 

[DetroitRed]

How dare you suggest trading Merrill and the mullet.

Nemeth could probably get a 3rd. Shit, Andy Greene at age 37 got a 2nd last year.

Mantha is worth a good haul if we ship him out. It was nice to see Mantha score a goal last night, but it might be what's best for all parties involved at this point.

Yeah, I know none of those other guys would get a first, except maybe Bernier, but I just can't picture a team wanting to have to come up with two goalies in the same offseason. It's possible, I just don't think it's probable.

I agree on Mantha.

 

[MBH]

You can say you didn't want to waive Bernier all you want, but the reality is also that you labeled Bernier a replacement-level player (meaning: waiver-worthy), suggested waiving him for a washed up prospect was possibly the way to go, and said that if we did so, "that would be fine" (even though the guy you wanted was far closer to replacement level than Bernier).

Bernier has been nothing short of impressive for this team down the stretch last season and throughout this one. Will he keep it up? It's anyone's guess. But to this point, your hot takes regarding Jonathan Bernier have been ridiculous.

LOL.
The old "you can say what you want but you said this" like I said something outrageous.

Bernier has been a replacement level goalie his entire career.
There's not a whole lot of evidence he's much better than that now - other than he's been better than a couple shitshows.

You can lie and mischaracterize what I said if it makes you feel better.
But I was saying that if we claimed Ned from Carolina (not my idea), we'd likely have to make to make room for him by dumping one of our other goalies.
And in that post I said I WOULD NOT do that.

Bernier has been good.
Not great.
.904 .907 and .913.

Most boring hot take theater ever.

 

[Tetsuo]

I'm inclined to listen to MBH's opinion on this one. He's definitely got the experience when it comes to outlandish hot takes.

 

[jaster]

LOL.
The old "you can say what you want but you said this" like I said something outrageous.

How outrageous is certainly a matter of debate, but the point is you were hedging to the point of saying two contradictory things, and then when it was pointed out that you said one, you're able to fall back on, 'no I said this other thing!' And then you go on to call other people liars. mod

 

[MBH]

How outrageous is certainly a matter of debate, but the point is you were hedging to the point of saying two contradictory things, and then when it was pointed out that you said one, you're able to fall back on, 'no I said this other thing!' And then you go on to call other people liars. mod

I have no hot takes on Bernier.
You could justifiably criticize me for believing Greiss would be as a good as Bernier. I was definitely wrong there.
But that doesn't allow you to be hostile and mean enough. So you make up nonsense about my Bernier "hot takes."
Why you care enough to lie about what I think/mean is the curious thing.

 

[DetroitRed]

I basically affirmed that Greiss is probably toast soon, but I don't have interest in him going forward anyway.

Here's a counter question to 'is Greiss toast?'

If you got offered a first-round pick for Bernier, but taking that offer meant that you had to re-sign Greiss for another season as a backup, would you take that first-round pick and re-sign Greiss?

I would.

 

[Gniwder]

I basically affirmed that Greiss is probably toast soon, but I don't have interest in him going forward anyway.

Here's a counter question to 'is Greiss toast?'

If you got offered a first-round pick for Bernier, but taking that offer meant that you had to re-sign Greiss for another season as a backup, would you take that first-round pick and re-sign Greiss?

I would.

Greiss is already signed for next season.

 

[jaster]

I have no hot takes on Bernier.
You could justifiably criticize me for believing Greiss would be as a good as Bernier. I was definitely wrong there.
But that doesn't allow you to be hostile and mean enough. So you make up nonsense about my Bernier "hot takes."
Why you care enough to lie about what I think/mean is the curious thing.

I'm reading what you wrote. If you think I'm lying, it's because you have a disconnect between what's in your brain and what you're typing out. Try harder, I guess. Sorry about your hurt feelings.

 

[14ari13]

I basically affirmed that Greiss is probably toast soon, but I don't have interest in him going forward anyway.

Here's a counter question to 'is Greiss toast?'

If you got offered a first-round pick for Bernier, but taking that offer meant that you had to re-sign Greiss for another season as a backup, would you take that first-round pick and re-sign Greiss?

I would.

Greiss is signed next season too.

If I were Yzerman I would not trade Bernier unless 1st coming back.

Bernier is a top 3 goalie in the league in my opinion.

 

[DetroitRed]

Greiss is already signed for next season.

OMG. I guess I confused his deal with Howard's last. I was thinking one year deal.

 

[DetroitRed]

Greiss is signed next season too.

If I were Yzerman I would not trade Bernier unless 1st coming back.

Bernier is a top 3 goalie in the league in my opinion.

Yeah, we need a first for Bernier or forget it.

 

[MBH]

Bernier is a top 3 goalie in the league in my opinion.

Yes.
And yet I'm the one with Bernier hot takes.

 

[14ari13]

Yes.
And yet I'm the one with Bernier hot takes.

I do not follow every discussion on the board.
But if I remember right most of the posters here were expecting Greiss to outplay Bernier, maybe Yzerman included too.
But maybe it turns out that it is almost impossible to outplay Bernier at this point.
Bernier benefits greatly from not playing under pressure.
Bernier plays the puck a lot and plays it real good.
He also knows the team. We also know the team. I can almost tell when they are going to make a turnover which often is costly.

Greiss has to play the puck, or he is going to get shelled every game. He will get burned, but he will win some games.

 

[ShelbyZ]

it's not like he's ever been as remotely horrible as he has been with Detroit.

He was in 2017-18 under the defensive dumpster fire led by Doug Weight: .895SV% and 3.82GAA

That was the year the Wings had that ridiculous 7-6 OT loss against the Isles where NY went from being down 5-2 to leading 6-5 after scoring 4 PP goals on a Bertuzzi match penalty. Greiss started that game and got pulled after the Wings first 5 goals and at some point during an intermission or after the game, Osgood basically said he sucked.

On another board, someone made the point that his numbers were inflated by Trotz... and between that and his age, I don't see why red flags didn't go up for me earlier.

It's probably true to some degree. It's no secret that Trotz coaches a defensive game and in the two years Greiss was under him the team was ranked 3rd and 5th in terms of least amount time spent on the PK.

I mean I liked the Greiss signing from a low risk, negligible cost bandaid stand point and figured perhaps he'd deliver goaltending closer to what the team had gotten from Howard in 18-19. That said, I can't remember what thread it was in, but I remember posting something about how if you ranked the D and coaching in front of Greiss on a scale from 0 to 10 -0 being Weight and 10 being Trotz- the Wings are probably going to be a 1.5, so it's possible he could end up closer to what he was under Weight. I guess that was more realistic than I hoped...

 

[TheClap]

One stat you should post up there is goal support. Another worth finding (if you can) is how many penalties we take when Greiss is in, and what our PK percentage is in those games.

I too would like to see these stats.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Greiss is a good goalie if you have a decent team and he's solidly your backup. He's not a good goalie if you have a bad team and he's asked to be a 1B.
He's not really ever been on too bad a team nor did he have the real weight of the position on him. However, "red flags" shouldn't have gone up for you on Greiss. What on Earth would you have considered a red flag on him? Being in his mid 30s? He's been basically the same goalie for the past 7 years in a pretty consistent #2 role. He's not a super flashy dive all over the place guy and he also didn't show continuous injury history like Howard did that presaged his decline. Greiss is just not playing well in 20-21. He was a safe backup goalie option. The only thing would be his age... but he's not failing this year because he's old. He's failing this year because his angles are shit and the team can't score a lick so he's mentally psyching himself out. It's not necessarily that NYI were goal-scoring juggernauts (they weren't in the last two years with Trotz), but that they could go out and score if they needed to. Detroit this year couldn't score in a whorehouse with a hundred dollar bill sticking out of their pants. NYI under Trotz didn't score because they had talented guys focus on defensive low-event hockey. DRW this year can't score because they have around 5 good players and 7 really bad players focusing on defensive low-event hockey.

Jonathan Bernier has been on quite a few bad teams (like those Toronto teams he was on... woof.) He's more used to playing without the lead or playing while not in control of the game.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

LOL.
The old "you can say what you want but you said this" like I said something outrageous.

Bernier has been a replacement level goalie his entire career.
There's not a whole lot of evidence he's much better than that now - other than he's been better than a couple shitshows.

You can lie and mischaracterize what I said if it makes you feel better.
But I was saying that if we claimed Ned from Carolina (not my idea), we'd likely have to make to make room for him by dumping one of our other goalies.
And in that post I said I WOULD NOT do that.

Bernier has been good.
Not great.
.904 .907 and .913.

Most boring hot take theater ever.

Also... no, Bernier has been great. Look at our roster... still. The defense is improved over last year... but it's still pretty bad. We can't score at all. Two 5 goal bursts don't change that fact.

Top 3 or 5? Yeah, that's crazy talk. But Jonathan Bernier literally gives the Wings a chance in games when they play the low-event style of hockey they have been. That's what you ask of a goalie in his spot and he's done a tremendous job of it. The Wings are still facing a pretty large talent gap between themselves and the rest of the teams they play. Bernier's stats are really damn good when you look at 5 on 5. You see .910 and say "meh". He's put up a .918 and .923 last year and this year at 5-on-5. Wings have been lit up like a Christmas tree when they face a power play. Meaning that the PKers suck something fierce.

 

[MBH]

Also... no, Bernier has been great. Look at our roster... still. The defense is improved over last year... but it's still pretty bad. We can't score at all. Two 5 goal bursts don't change that fact.

Top 3 or 5? Yeah, that's crazy talk. But Jonathan Bernier literally gives the Wings a chance in games when they play the low-event style of hockey they have been. That's what you ask of a goalie in his spot and he's done a tremendous job of it. The Wings are still facing a pretty large talent gap between themselves and the rest of the teams they play. Bernier's stats are really damn good when you look at 5 on 5. You see .910 and say "meh". He's put up a .918 and .923 last year and this year at 5-on-5. Wings have been lit up like a Christmas tree when they face a power play. Meaning that the PKers suck something fierce.

Great is a pretty imprecise word.
It's pretty hard for me to see Bernier as anything more than he's been throughout his career.
A legit NHL goalie. Probably not a starter on a good team.
I'll take a ,910 2,94 goalie on this team.
I hoped Greiss would match that. I was wrong.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Great is a pretty imprecise word.
It's pretty hard for me to see Bernier as anything more than he's been throughout his career.
A legit NHL goalie. Probably not a starter on a good team.
I'll take a ,910 2,94 goalie on this team.
I hoped Greiss would match that. I was wrong.

I mean, you're not technically wrong. But .910, 2.94 in Detroit is a damn sight different than .910, 2.94 in Carolina or Toronto or Tampa Bay.

This team, despite making gigantic defensive strides, is still dogshit in its own end and routinely has the play taken to them by the other team. Being a legit, average NHL goalie on a roster like Detroit's is a big success. Goalie on a woefully undertalented team is not like being a stud shooting guard on an awful basketball team where you can fill the stat sheet. Nor is it like being a quarterback on an abysmal football team where you can pad your stats.

It's just so damn difficult to use stats for a goalie in the short run to indicate much of anything unless they're just eye-poppingly bad like Howard's last year. Like Pekka Rinne in the Trotz Nashville years always had ludicrous stats because Nashville was so freaking good at funneling all the shots to low-danger areas. So while you'd get 30-40 shots a night against Nashville then, there were usually about 5-10 that had any prayer of going in.

 

[MBH]

I mean, you're not technically wrong. But .910, 2.94 in Detroit is a damn sight different than .910, 2.94 in Carolina or Toronto or Tampa Bay.

This team, despite making gigantic defensive strides, is still dogshit in its own end and routinely has the play taken to them by the other team. Being a legit, average NHL goalie on a roster like Detroit's is a big success. Goalie on a woefully undertalented team is not like being a stud shooting guard on an awful basketball team where you can fill the stat sheet. Nor is it like being a quarterback on an abysmal football team where you can pad your stats.

It's just so damn difficult to use stats for a goalie in the short run to indicate much of anything unless they're just eye-poppingly bad like Howard's last year. Like Pekka Rinne in the Trotz Nashville years always had ludicrous stats because Nashville was so freaking good at funneling all the shots to low-danger areas. So while you'd get 30-40 shots a night against Nashville then, there were usually about 5-10 that had any prayer of going in.

At the same time, the NHL has a long history of spectacular goalies on weak teams.
Anyway, I thought Bernier was potentially our best UFA trade option. If Greiss can't pick it up, I'm not sure Yzerman will move Bernier.

 

[Red Stanley]

At the same time, the NHL has a long history of spectacular goalies on weak teams.
Anyway, I thought Bernier was potentially our best UFA trade option. If Greiss can't pick it up, I'm not sure Yzerman will move Bernier.

Move Bernier now only if someone overpays. Otherwise if he continues to play well next season and we bolster the defense with Seider and whoever else, his stats will rise and he'll be worth even more at the next trade deadline.