Is Thomas Greiss Toast?

[golffuul]

First 4 games.
0-3-1 2.53 .917 sv%

Next 11
1-8-2 .866 3.88 sv%


9 of 15 games under .900.
That's rough.

I'm always leery to live and die by statistics, for goalies, when so much is dependent on the group of players in front and how well they play for them. It's quite obvious, from all who have watched the Wings, this season, that the team plays harder for Bernier than they do for Greiss. And it didn't help that Greiss had to play the majority of the games when our team was decimated by Covid/Injury. Bernier has been fortunate in that regard, but also Bernier has played more consistently.

The eye test would tell me that Greiss is struggling just as much as the team is and that Bernier has been through this before with the Wings and he knows how to deal with it better. Overall, I'm not willing to sell off Greiss, at this point, because I believe his confidence is very much linked with the rest of the team's confidence and that his play will improve as the team's ability to play better improves. Goalies can be like that. All you have to do is look at a guy like Jonathan Quick who was all but unbeatable when his team was really good in front of him, but has been not very good for the last number of years.

We also don't know the kind of chemistry that Greiss has with our goaltending coach and whether that has a lot to do with it or not. As someone who has played professional sports, I can tell you that a coach/instructor you aren't quite confident with, doesn't really make for the best of results in the short-term.

 

[14ari13]

I tried to warn of the strong possibility of this outcome before the season. You had suggested Greiss was the clearly superior goalie and that Detroit should consider waiving Bernier in order to acquire some other goalie who was waived.




Greiss sucking is no surprise to me. Bernier has been here. He's proven himself with this miserable squad. He was a top-10 goalie down the stretch last season with the worst team in the league. Greiss is coming from a much better defensive structure, where his acrobatics weren't so easily exposed. Him getting lit up here is disappointing, but not shocking.

That said, he's not toast. Still got 30-some games to go, he'll get plenty of chances to rebound. Starting to become clear that Bernier should be re-signed (if he's willing) and protected though.

If I remember right the majority of the posters thought Greiss would be much better than Bernier. But newsguyone is one of the fastest to write players off. Then when it turns out to be wrong, he wont admit it.

He had a number of good games this season, so I don't write him off completely. But going forward, after this season, I wouldn't be interested in him.

He is approaching average retirement age for a goalie anyway, certainly next season it's a question he will face.

Back to this season though, at the start, he was playing about on par with Bernier. Granted, he wasn't winning, but to me, that had to do with goal support. Recently, I was thinking that maybe he felt a little more competitive at the start of the season because starting goalie for the Wings wasn't set in stone yet, plus the team wasn't so out of the playoff picture.

He's played badly lately, but I think he's got enough left to make it through the season and maybe even have mostly decent performances during the remaining stretch.

He started relatively ok to good, but the team cant win with him in net.


The difference between Bernier and Greiss is that Bernier is far better to handle the puck. He also knows the team and he knows what is going to happen. Bernier sees Nielsen jumps on the ice and he thinks be ready it is 5 on 3.
Bernier has found his niche with this team.
Greiss is not bad, it is the team. Bernier on the other hand is great and he has proven it now in 2 seasons and it shows it is not a fluke. I have insisted that Yzerman has to get a 1st round pick for Bernier. Bernier is a top 5 or 10 goalie in the league.

But Greiss is far better than Rinne and many other goalies. Far better than Howard last season too. He allowed 7 goals last, but can't be blamed on any of them.

Bernier is worth 1st. If Yzerman does not get 1st, I would keep Bernier. I would not trade him for anything less than 1st.

 

[ManwithNoIdentity]

We need to re-sign Bernier at all costs

I think Greiss asks for a trade

 

[Gniwder]

We need to re-sign Bernier at all costs

I think Greiss asks for a trade

Teams don't pay $3.6M for a backup goalie, and Greiss isn't good enough to be a full time starter. He needs a situation where he's splitting starts with another goalie, and there aren't too many teams like that. Probably the reason why he wound up with the WIngs.

Which team with cap space is going to trade for him?

He's 35, he'll probably just ride out the contract then sign as a backup somewhere for a year or two.

 

[kliq]

Teams don't pay $3.6M for a backup goalie, and Greiss isn't good enough to be a full time starter. He needs a situation where he's splitting starts with another goalie, and there aren't too many teams like that. Probably the reason why he wound up with the WIngs.

Which team with cap space is going to trade for him?

He's 35, he'll probably just ride out the contract then sign as a backup somewhere for a year or two.

For the most part I agree, but the Wings could always retain a mil or even 1.5 if it means assets coming back. Though for this to happen I think a playoff team would need to loose their starter. For example, if Toronto lost Anderson for the season, I could see them being interested in one of our guys.

 

[Gniwder]

For the most part I agree, but the Wings could always retain a mil or even 1.5 if it means assets coming back. Though for this to happen I think a playoff team would need to loose their starter. For example, if Toronto lost Anderson for the season, I could see them being interested in one of our guys.

I'm pretty sure everyone will be asking for Bernie, not Greiss. And if Bernie gets traded, Stevie has no choice but to keep Greiss.

Just because a player asks to be traded doesn't mean he'll get what he wants.

 

[ManwithNoIdentity]

Teams don't pay $3.6M for a backup goalie, and Greiss isn't good enough to be a full time starter. He needs a situation where he's splitting starts with another goalie, and there aren't too many teams like that. Probably the reason why he wound up with the WIngs.

Which team with cap space is going to trade for him?

He's 35, he'll probably just ride out the contract then sign as a backup somewhere for a year or two.

Even still, I think if some offers something other than a 2nd we need to resign Bern

 

[kliq]

I'm pretty sure everyone will be asking for Bernie, not Greiss. And if Bernie gets traded, Stevie has no choice but to keep Greiss.

Just because a player asks to be traded doesn't mean he'll get what he wants.

Agreed, but I could see Griess costing a lot less. I dont get your last comment though, did Griess ask to be traded?

 

[Red Stanley]

You probably saw Greiss smash his stick after that seventh Chicago goal yesterday. I remember thinking, wow, Greiss really got lit up this period. The losing must be getting to him.
In my head, I'd kind of assumed Greiss was playing well but having very little fortune.
And then I actually looked at his stats.
1 win
11 losses
3 OTL.
3.46 GAA
.882 sv%
Barf.
Jimmy Howard last year.
2 wins
23 losses.
2 OTL
4.20 GAA
.882 save percentage.
Outside the GAA - those numbers are awfully similar. Similarly awful.
Greiss is 35. And that's about the age the wheels fell off for Jimmy Howard.
Starting to make me wonder if Yzerman can afford to trade Bernier or let him walk away. You need one passable goalie, right?

It's almost as if goaltending hasn't been the biggest reason why this team does so poorly. People see Bernier, who's playing the best hockey of his career, and think "if only we get decent goaltending ..." No. It takes amazing goaltending to maintain the illusion of mediocre goalie numbers on this dumpster fire of a team.

 

[Gniwder]

Agreed, but I could see Griess costing a lot less. I dont get your last comment though, did Griess ask to be traded?

No it was in response to a post saying he's gonna ask. I don't think he will anyways, he knew what he signed up for, he did it for the money.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Any goalie on this team is toast.

 

[Gniwder]

Any goalie on this team is toast.

No, Bernier is marmalade.

I love marmalade on toast though. Now I'm hungry....

 

[kliq]

No it was in response to a post saying he's gonna ask. I don't think he will anyways, he knew what he signed up for, he did it for the money.

Oh ok, gotcha. Agreed, he had to know what he was getting in to so I'd be shocked if he asked for a trade.

 

[MBH]

If I remember right the majority of the posters thought Greiss would be much better than Bernier. But newsguyone is one of the fastest to write players off. Then when it turns out to be wrong, he wont admit it.

This idea that I am writing off Bernier is fiction. Bullshit.
Look at my OP.
I'm suggesting that Greiss's play is so bad that Yzerman may have to put a halt to any plans to trade him.
Why would you trade Bernier? Because he has VALUE. Not because I'm writing him off. I have him and Glendening as our MOST VALUABLE trade chips.

My error was believing that Greiss could match Bernier.

 

[MBH]

It's almost as if goaltending hasn't been the biggest reason why this team does so poorly. People see Bernier, who's playing the best hockey of his career, and think "if only we get decent goaltending ..." No. It takes amazing goaltending to maintain the illusion of mediocre goalie numbers on this dumpster fire of a team.

I just don't see Bernier as anything more that a good 1B who looks better when he plays more than when he plays less.

 

[14ari13]

This idea that I am writing off Bernier is fiction. Bullshit.
Look at my OP.
I'm suggesting that Greiss's play is so bad that Yzerman may have to put a halt to any plans to trade him.
Why would you trade Bernier? Because he has VALUE. Not because I'm writing him off. I have him and Glendening as our MOST VALUABLE trade chips.

My error was believing that Greiss could match Bernier.

I am referring that you are writing off Greiss, not Bernier.

I have suggested myself several times that Yzerman should trade Bernier for 1st and nothing less.
I also think we should trade Glendening.

But I want to bring them back after the playoffs are over.

Ryan also leads the team in points and should be of a good value.

Greiss got to play last night in 3rd and went out and played the puck 4 times.
This team is so bad that if Greiss wants to win games he has to play the puck much more. He will get burned several times, but that is the only way with this team.
He has to understand that this team turns the puck a lot, so he has to be on even when we have the puck possession, or he has to be even more alert when we have the puck it is more dangerous.

And most of the posters were expecting Greiss to be much better than Bernier.

 

[DetroitRed]

If I remember right the majority of the posters thought Greiss would be much better than Bernier. But newsguyone is one of the fastest to write players off. Then when it turns out to be wrong, he wont admit it.


He started relatively ok to good, but the team cant win with him in net.


The difference between Bernier and Greiss is that Bernier is far better to handle the puck. He also knows the team and he knows what is going to happen. Bernier sees Nielsen jumps on the ice and he thinks be ready it is 5 on 3.
Bernier has found his niche with this team.
Greiss is not bad, it is the team. Bernier on the other hand is great and he has proven it now in 2 seasons and it shows it is not a fluke. I have insisted that Yzerman has to get a 1st round pick for Bernier. Bernier is a top 5 or 10 goalie in the league.

But Greiss is far better than Rinne and many other goalies. Far better than Howard last season too. He allowed 7 goals last, but can't be blamed on any of them.

Bernier is worth 1st. If Yzerman does not get 1st, I would keep Bernier. I would not trade him for anything less than 1st.

I agree with almost everything you said. The only concern I have is that if we trade Bernier, then we need to come up with two goalies for next season instead of one.

I think they need to come up with a replacement for Greiss for next season no matter what. So, if they trade Bernier, then they need to come up with a replacement for Bernier, too. Finding two goalies is probably a lot harder than finding one.

I love the idea of getting an extra first-round pick because I would love for them to draft Wallstedt, but I would try to get that extra first in a different way. I would probably try to trade Mantha, instead. The reason why is that I think we've seen enough to confirm what the scouting reports said about him and motivational issues. I also think, if it's not just who he is as a player, he probably won't grow out of it soon; I think he'll keep going back and forth. But I digress.

 

[DetroitRed]

I think there are a couple of constants between this season and last season, by the way.

One constant is the Wings scoring only 2 goals-per-game on average...

No team in the NHL scored an average of four goals a game last season, but it was quite common for a team to score an average of three. A lot of teams were between three and four. This season's not much different, but there are, last time I checked, four teams who now score just over 4 goals a game. Again, Detroit is still at 2.

The other constant is Bernier. The Wings' defense and team defense has changed, but Bernier performed well last season as well.

 

[MBH]

I am referring that you are writing off Greiss, not Bernier.

I have suggested myself several times that Yzerman should trade Bernier for 1st and nothing less.
I also think we should trade Glendening.

But I want to bring them back after the playoffs are over.

Ryan also leads the team in points and should be of a good value.

Greiss got to play last night in 3rd and went out and played the puck 4 times.
This team is so bad that if Greiss wants to win games he has to play the puck much more. He will get burned several times, but that is the only way with this team.
He has to understand that this team turns the puck a lot, so he has to be on even when we have the puck possession, or he has to be even more alert when we have the puck it is more dangerous.

And most of the posters were expecting Greiss to be much better than Bernier.

All I expected was someone who would match what Bernier did last year. Two goalies at Bernier level, I figured, would get us to .400-460 hockey.
Instead we're at .320 hockey.
Bernier - .600 hockey
Griess- .166 hockey

If Griess was doing what Bernier did last year (,415 hockey) that would mean 7 extra points in the standings.
We'd be one point behind Chicago for the fourth playoff spot.
We'd be playing .480 hockey.

 

[14ari13]

I agree with almost everything you said. The only concern I have is that if we trade Bernier, then we need to come up with two goalies for next season instead of one.

I think they need to come up with a replacement for Greiss for next season no matter what. So, if they trade Bernier, then they need to come up with a replacement for Bernier, too. Finding two goalies is probably a lot harder than finding one.

I love the idea of getting an extra first-round pick because I would love for them to draft Wallstedt, but I would try to get that extra first in a different way. I would probably try to trade Mantha, instead. The reason why is that I think we've seen enough to confirm what the scouting reports said about him and motivational issues. I also think, if it's not just who he is as a player, he probably won't grow out of it soon; I think he'll keep going back and forth. But I digress.

We have now 2 seasons and 3 goalies to analyse and it is not a small sample size or fluke. Bernier has outplayed both Howard and Greiss big time.
Greiss has to learn that the biggest danger for him is when his teammates have the puck on their stick not opposition, cause they make a lot of turnovers. Bernier knows this and he is ready.
Bernier made 3 big saves on Kane. And Kane is one of the biggest goalscorers in the league. A good example that he can make saves no matter what.

I think Yzerman should trade him for a 1st no less. If not 1st, then keep him.
Yzerman can bring him back or find another veteran goalie in the off season.

Greiss has to be more active and play the puck. Last game vs the jackets he did it in the 20 min he got to play, he did it 4 times. He has not been bad for us. He has not allowed heaps of soft and semi soft goals.

All I expected was someone who would match what Bernier did last year. Two goalies at Bernier level, I figured, would get us to .400-460 hockey.
Instead we're at .320 hockey.
Bernier - .600 hockey
Griess- .166 hockey

If Griess was doing what Bernier did last year (,415 hockey) that would mean 7 extra points in the standings.
We'd be one point behind Chicago for the fourth playoff spot.
We'd be playing .480 hockey.

Bernier is one of the best or hottest goalies in the league last 2 seasons. Howard and Greiss can not win a game.
I think we will see Greiss being more active and aggressive playing the puck. That should help him.

We are not as bad as last season. There are maybe 5 teams as bad as us.

I am not sure about improving the team right now. It will put us outside of top 5 draft picks. We need at least another one top 5.
Improving the team would be one small step forward now and then 2 back.

 

[DetroitRed]

We have now 2 seasons and 3 goalies to analyse and it is not a small sample size or fluke. Bernier has outplayed both Howard and Greiss big time.
Greiss has to learn that the biggest danger for him is when his teammates have the puck on their stick not opposition, cause they make a lot of turnovers. Bernier knows this and he is ready.
Bernier made 3 big saves on Kane. And Kane is one of the biggest goalscorers in the league. A good example that he can make saves no matter what.

I think Yzerman should trade him for a 1st no less. If not 1st, then keep him.
Yzerman can bring him back or find another veteran goalie in the off season.

Greiss has to be more active and play the puck. Last game vs the jackets he did it in the 20 min he got to play, he did it 4 times. He has not been bad for us. He has not allowed heaps of soft and semi soft goals.



Bernier is one of the best or hottest goalies in the league last 2 seasons. Howard and Greiss can not win a game.
I think we will see Greiss being more active and aggressive playing the puck. That should help him.

We are not as bad as last season. There are maybe 5 teams as bad as us.

I am not sure about improving the team right now. It will put us outside of top 5 draft picks. We need at least another one top 5.
Improving the team would be one small step forward now and then 2 back.

I don't disagree that Bernier could be worth a first. I'm just saying that I don't believe I'd trade Bernier.

My reason is that Greiss is approaching retirement, and even if he doesn't retire before next season, I don't have interest in keeping him on the team.

So, if you trade Bernier and you don't allow Greiss to return to the team, then you would have no goalie whatsoever. Therefore, you would need to come up with two new goalies right away.

I believe this is true even if you draft Wallstedt with your extra first-round pick because I don't think Wallstedt will be 100% NHL-ready even if I'm pretty optimistic about him. And again, I do want to trade for a first and draft Wallstedt, I just don't think trading Bernier is the best way to accomplish that considering the condition Greiss is in.

 

[PullHard]

Anyone playing in net for this team is going to be toast if they are anything less than a legit #1

Greiss has been a back up or 1B everywhere else and he is seemingly continuing to be at that level

Bernier had been a back up/ 1B type, but in the last ~1.5 seasons has been playing like a high end starter

The skaters on this team are all mostly underwhelming, it is going to be an ugly go for any netminder

 

[lomekian]

I am referring that you are writing off Greiss, not Bernier.

I have suggested myself several times that Yzerman should trade Bernier for 1st and nothing less.
I also think we should trade Glendening.

But I want to bring them back after the playoffs are over.

Ryan also leads the team in points and should be of a good value.

Greiss got to play last night in 3rd and went out and played the puck 4 times.
This team is so bad that if Greiss wants to win games he has to play the puck much more. He will get burned several times, but that is the only way with this team.
He has to understand that this team turns the puck a lot, so he has to be on even when we have the puck possession, or he has to be even more alert when we have the puck it is more dangerous.

And most of the posters were expecting Greiss to be much better than Bernier.

I think most expected him to be at a similar level to Bernier and allow the latter to be traded come the deadline with no real drop off.

Doesn't look like that will be the case

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

click-bait site has us trading Bernier @ low price.

Also says: "Thomas Greiss has been outstanding for the Red Wings as of late. That's why he's the least likely candidate to be traded at the deadline. According to The Athletic, Jonathan Bernier is reportedly on the way out of Detroit...."

Rumor: Red Wings To Trade Former Leafs Goaltender - NHL Rumors - NHLTradeRumors.Me

 

[14ari13]

I don't disagree that Bernier could be worth a first. I'm just saying that I don't believe I'd trade Bernier.

My reason is that Greiss is approaching retirement, and even if he doesn't retire before next season, I don't have interest in keeping him on the team.

So, if you trade Bernier and you don't allow Greiss to return to the team, then you would have no goalie whatsoever. Therefore, you would need to come up with two new goalies right away.

I believe this is true even if you draft Wallstedt with your extra first-round pick because I don't think Wallstedt will be 100% NHL-ready even if I'm pretty optimistic about him. And again, I do want to trade for a first and draft Wallstedt, I just don't think trading Bernier is the best way to accomplish that considering the condition Greiss is in.

There are FA goalies Yzerman could sign?
Bernier is so valuable to this team that if not traded for 1st then there's no point.
I do not see the problem for Yzerman signing him after the playoffs..

We have Bernier, Glendening, Ryan, Staal and Helm we can trade. I have no idea what Yzerman can get for them.