Is this shady or normal for hockey parents?

[Slats432]

Unfortunately though, "commitment" goes beyond "you really like hockey and are willing to work hard to get better and be the best player you can be wherever that ends up" when there's a significant $$$ component at that age.

If the money is what is talking then the "kid" doesn't quit. The parents quit.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I think that the Outlier theory has an effect but it isn't the only effect. That problem is created by outside influences that say you need to be at this level or that level by a certain age to "make it". If you quit hockey because you don't make AAA then it is your commitment that is more of an issue than the level you play at. People believe that development is a straight line. It is not. If you are good enough, you play. If you aren't, you don't. Lots of factors but I believe that the cream always rises to the top.

It's hard for a 10-13-15 year old to make judgments based on long-term trends though. It's easy as a parent or coach to say "hockey development is a long process, your career isn't over because you didn't make AAA this year", but that's not how kids see it.

I suspect we lose a lot of talented hockey players because they quit because of one bad year, or bad try-out. I remember listening to hockey broadcaster Jeff Marek describe how he quit hockey because he didn't make AA/AAA (forget which) one year. He now thought that was rather silly.

So, I have no solutions here. Parents and coaches can try to talk kids through a disappointing year, but you can't force a kid to play hockey if they say they want to quit.

But I don't necessarily believe "the cream always rises to the top". I think I've cited Zach Hymen on this point before - he owes his pro hockey career to his bad buying teams for him to play on. Now full credit to Hymen as he's worked hard since being given that opportunity, and his long career since then is on him, not his dad.

 

[Slats432]

It's hard for a 10-13-15 year old to make judgments based on long-term trends though. It's easy as a parent or coach to say "hockey development is a long process, your career isn't over because you didn't make AAA this year", but that's not how kids see it.

I suspect we lose a lot of talented hockey players because they quit because of one bad year, or bad try-out. I remember listening to hockey broadcaster Jeff Marek describe how he quit hockey because he didn't make AA/AAA (forget which) one year. He now thought that was rather silly.

So, I have no solutions here. Parents and coaches can try to talk kids through a disappointing year, but you can't force a kid to play hockey if they say they want to quit.

But I don't necessarily believe "the cream always rises to the top". I think I've cited Zach Hymen on this point before - he owes his pro hockey career to his bad buying teams for him to play on. Now full credit to Hymen as he's worked hard since being given that opportunity, and his long career since then is on him, not his dad.

It is disingenuous to use Hyman as an example since he is the ONE player that you can use as an the example of a dad that bought teams to get him ahead. Hockey is a game where money gets you advantage. I remember seeing the Prokhop father buying ice and having individual sessions for his kids. I know our AAA goalie at U18 that played with my son had private sessions on private ice. Does that give them advantage? Yes. But the kid has to have the commitment. Even guys that get passed over in the NHL draft. Well, you might quit and go to University if you have your CHL package. But you also could have this path. Vincent Desharnais - Stats, Contract, Salary & More

Kids will take in what the parents feed them. The kids that make it the furthest are the ones that have the longest and highest level of commitment. You can't make a kid play that is right, because when mine was quitting Junior, it crosses your mind to say, suck it up and play, but you allow for them to make the decision with all the information. If they have the passion and the belief, that is what determines results.

 

[Yukon Joe]

It is disingenuous to use Hyman as an example since he is the ONE player that you can use as an the example of a dad that bought teams to get him ahead. Hockey is a game where money gets you advantage. I remember seeing the Prokhop father buying ice and having individual sessions for his kids. I know our AAA goalie at U18 that played with my son had private sessions on private ice. Does that give them advantage? Yes. But the kid has to have the commitment. Even guys that get passed over in the NHL draft. Well, you might quit and go to University if you have your CHL package. But you also could have this path. Vincent Desharnais - Stats, Contract, Salary & More

Kids will take in what the parents feed them. The kids that make it the furthest are the ones that have the longest and highest level of commitment. You can't make a kid play that is right, because when mine was quitting Junior, it crosses your mind to say, suck it up and play, but you allow for them to make the decision with all the information. If they have the passion and the belief, that is what determines results.

OK but VInny Dehrarnais has a pretty unlikely NHL path as well. Not exactly unheard of, but he's playing his first full NHL season at the age of 27. But again - good on him, he's worked incredibly hard,

I think my objection was to the "the cream will always rise to the top". There are kids out there who could be amazing but quite because they didn't make a team, or their parents couldn't afford it, or they just got a bad coach for a couple years, or they just barely missed the cut, or any number of other reasons. There's a tremendous amount of luck involved - as well as talent and hard work of course.

 

[Slats432]

OK but VInny Dehrarnais has a pretty unlikely NHL path as well. Not exactly unheard of, but he's playing his first full NHL season at the age of 27. But again - good on him, he's worked incredibly hard,

I think my objection was to the "the cream will always rise to the top". There are kids out there who could be amazing but quite because they didn't make a team, or their parents couldn't afford it, or they just got a bad coach for a couple years, or they just barely missed the cut, or any number of other reasons. There's a tremendous amount of luck involved - as well as talent and hard work of course.

The kids who quit, quit. Mine made Junior A, and quit. Stephane Legault was in the WHL and on his way to a pro career then quit. Nikita Popugaev was a NHL draft pick, and quit. Stefan Legien quit. Antoine Lafleur had an NHL contract and quit. Ryan Pilon, Gregg Sutch, Nick Maygar, Eric Mestery...there is a long list but those are high profile guys that just quit.

Whether you are 11 or 21, you have to be willing to put everything into what you want. You want to pick any number of excuses or reasons to quit? (Didn't make AAA, bad coach, bad organization, bad year)

There is luck involved no doubt. (My son was top four on his U16AAA team until one of the highly touted guys broke his ankle in game one of the season, then he was top pair and the workhorse which helped his development.)

The cream rises to the top, as long as they are willing to commit.

 

[Slats432]

And one final note. We talk in high level coaching about controlling what you can control. Shit happens to everyone. What you do with it is what matters.

When my son got cut from Peewee AA, I told him that it was his responsibility to play well. He didn't force the coach to take him. What did he do? The summer after he was in the gym 5 days a week for 3 hours a day from May until August. He made Bantam tier 3. The next offseason he was in the gym 5 days a week 3 hours a day from May until August. He made Bantam AA. The next offseason he was in the gym 5 days a week 3 hours a day from May until August. He made U16AAA....I think you get my drift.

If you aren't getting the results, review your process. Put in the work. The cream rises to the top.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Ya they signed commitment contracts, and lost their commitment fee when they left.

The big issue is these three kids and their parents basically lied, and took up important roster spots.

Then two weeks later they went to another team.

Now my kids team has three huge holes on it and all of the best AA kids in the area are now all committed to other teams.

If these parents had been honest and just left without their faux commitment, these roster spots could have been filled with good players.

The head of the association, other parents and the kids who are still on the team are really, really pissed.



I mean I’ve been around the game all my life and these latest events have taught me a lesson that I shouldn’t just accept this behavior is ok because… “well hockey parents”.

Basically when my wife said her and other parents felt betrayed and lied to, I shouldn’t have blown it off with “ya we keep our word but this is what many hockey parents do so whatever”

We have tryouts in March. On the last day, they try to get the parents to sign contracts before leaving the building. Well, a kid who signed with our team (well his parent did) was very upset he didnt make our "A" team. Few weeks later parent contacted the org and asked for a release. It was granted as he wanted to play with better players. In the past, policy has always been, "If you are paid in full you can have your contract back." Not sure if they made the parent pay to get out of the contract.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Hyman's dad may have been able to, at least theoretically, buy him into Junior A, but that's a relatively low level of play on an NHL scale. Unless he paid off the entire league to make Zach be the best player, paid off the University of Michigan to give him a spot and paid off all of NCAA Hockey to eventually make Zach be one of the best players by his Senior Year, it's disingenuous to equate the advantages Hyman had growing up wealthy with "he owes his pro hockey career to his dad buying teams"

Keep in mind when that hit piece was written, it was insinuating that Hyman was not a draftable player and S. Hyman buying ISS is the only reason he was drafted. Considering he was outperformed the vast majority of players drafted way ahead of him, I think we can chalk that one up to "demonstrably false". It's not like "his dad buying teams" would have given him any advantage at that point, especially once you're in NCAA or Pros, everyone is getting pretty similar opportunity for improvement then.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Hyman's dad may have been able to, at least theoretically, buy him into Junior A, but that's a relatively low level of play on an NHL scale. Unless he paid off the entire league to make Zach be the best player, paid off the University of Michigan to give him a spot and paid off all of NCAA Hockey to eventually make Zach be one of the best players by his Senior Year, it's disingenuous to equate the advantages Hyman had growing up wealthy with "he owes his pro hockey career to his dad buying teams"

Keep in mind when that hit piece was written, it was insinuating that Hyman was not a draftable player and S. Hyman buying ISS is the only reason he was drafted. Considering he was outperformed the vast majority of players drafted way ahead of him, I think we can chalk that one up to "demonstrably false". It's not like "his dad buying teams" would have given him any advantage at that point, especially once you're in NCAA or Pros, everyone is getting pretty similar opportunity for improvement then.

So since I brought up Hyman...

Every time I do I gave full credit to Hyman for making the most of the opportunity his dad gave him. You're absolutely right - once he was out of minor hockey Hyman was on his own.

But would he have been on the radar to get drafted or go to University if not for his dad? We'll never know.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

We have tryouts in March. On the last day, they try to get the parents to sign contracts before leaving the building. Well, a kid who signed with our team (well his parent did) was very upset he didnt make our "A" team. Few weeks later parent contacted the org and asked for a release. It was granted as he wanted to play with better players. In the past, policy has always been, "If you are paid in full you can have your contract back." Not sure if they made the parent pay to get out of the contract.

Most org I know of around here make you pay the commitment fee when you break their contracts.

I think it was like 1k this year, so the shady parents lost their commitment fee and it won’t be refunded etc.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Most org I know of around here make you pay the commitment fee when you break their contracts.

I think it was like 1k this year, so the shady parents lost their commitment fee and it won’t be refunded etc.

That's the crazy thing about hockey though - there are parents who will gladly eat that fee if it furthers their kid's hockey "career".

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

That's the crazy thing about hockey though - there are parents who will gladly eat that fee if it furthers their kid's hockey "career".

Ya they don’t care about pissing away 1k, pretty much know that for a fact.

The three families who screwed my daughter’s team make bank and 1k is a joke to them.

The best AAA teams around here after fees, travel, and the excel programs could get you a brand new car.

We just told our daughter she can’t play middle school hockey anymore because her AA team bantam fees are too much, meanwhile she has friends her age going to camps and tournaments over in Europe for the summer.

 

[jetsmooseice]

And one final note. We talk in high level coaching about controlling what you can control. Shit happens to everyone. What you do with it is what matters.

When my son got cut from Peewee AA, I told him that it was his responsibility to play well. He didn't force the coach to take him. What did he do? The summer after he was in the gym 5 days a week for 3 hours a day from May until August. He made Bantam tier 3. The next offseason he was in the gym 5 days a week 3 hours a day from May until August. He made Bantam AA. The next offseason he was in the gym 5 days a week 3 hours a day from May until August. He made U16AAA....I think you get my drift.

If you aren't getting the results, review your process. Put in the work. The cream rises to the top.

A peewee in the gym 5 days a week, 3 hours a day?! That's commitment. My son is entering peewee (u13) this fall and although he's a pretty athletic kid in general there's no way he'd be down with that, haha

 

[Slats432]

A peewee in the gym 5 days a week, 3 hours a day?! That's commitment. My son is entering peewee (u13) this fall and although he's a pretty athletic kid in general there's no way he'd be down with that, haha

It was after 2nd year peewee I think. Right before Bantam. And it is a workout group, all high level hockey players. It was the same gym that Iginla and Ennis went to so it came highly recommended.

 

[Yukon Joe]

It was after 2nd year peewee I think. Right before Bantam. And it is a workout group, all high level hockey players. It was the same gym that Iginla and Ennis went to so it came highly recommended.

So this is where I'm probably out of my depth, but I would seriously think that 15 hrs per week in the gym is not only overkill, but at risk of injury.

But I'm not a coach nor a trainer, and don't anyone dare take my word for it - it's only my (slightly educated) gut speaking.

My first year U15 (bantam) is in the gym maybe 3-5 hours per week, plus hockey (and some ball hockey), and I worry about injury from over-use.

 

[Mike C]

It's definitely normal. Hell it's normal for a lot of non-sport situations as well. Out of college I was competing for a spot in a symphony in the Chicago area and ran into a guy I know pretty well that plays the same instrument that I do. He ended up being the one that got selected for the position in Chicago. Two weeks later I run into him again auditioning for a spot in DC which kindof surprised me since he already had the Chicago offer.

Kevin Durant plays music?

 

[DingerMcSlapshot]

Just a straight up question:

After tryouts for team A your kid receives an offer and you commit to them, but secretly tryout for team B weeks later and accept their offer instead… do you consider this normal hockey parent behavior or would you consider this being shady?

Not shady at all.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Not shady at all.

Really? What ever happened to telling the truth?

There's nothing wrong with going "Thanks for the offer, Team A. We're going to try out for Team B. We hope you might keep the spot open for Little Johnny, but I understand if you can't".

Yes, you run the risk of not playing for Team A or Team B, but it's KIDS HOCKEY, and I'm sure they'll have a fun time on whatever Team C winds up being. I knew several kids who were devastated in September at not making the team they thought they should be on, and all wound up having great years on the team they did make.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Just an update on the situation from my OP…

My wife is friends with one of the moms who’s son left Team A after signing the commitment contract.

She texted my wife and asked if they were still friends and said the last few weeks have been pretty bad.

My wife said of course they are still friends and just explained why people on Team A are so upset.

Apparently the families who left are getting a lot of blowback and this mom’s son got punched in the head by one of my daughter’s teammates (his former teammate).

Don’t have all the details but sounds like this has gotten really stupid all around.

 

[MDCSL]

Situations a bit different than yours, but we’re committing to a PHL team and will possibly uncommit if my boy makes AA but it’s unlikely. I’ve never considered these rouge leagues before but we moved to a much smaller center last year and boy is the hockey here corrupt. My ten year old tried out for the AA team here as a goalie (there’s two teams, so 4 goalie spots) and played incredible - 0 ga, 1ga, 1ga in the three tryout games. They wound up not selecting him, even taking a kid who was well into the 10+ gaa all 3 games. Not only that, they bumped him down to the B team which is lower than he played last year - it was an absolute joke he was way too good for the tier and he hated every minute of it, even telling me he doesn’t like it anymore and won’t play goal next year. It got to the point that he would fight and wouldn’t go to his teams practice, but the age group up AA travel girls and age group up PHL/HSL teams used him as a practice goalie all year and he was fantastic at that level against older kids. Now one of the goalies who made the AA team over him’s dad has been made the head coach for the U13A team, so his son is automatically the goalie before tryouts even begin. After our tryouts he almost cried in the car and would not stop talking about how much he enjoyed playing games against better kids and he wants to stay a goalie. C’est la vie, I think this is the last time we will be associated with hockey Canada.

 

[DingerMcSlapshot]

Really? What ever happened to telling the truth?

There's nothing wrong with going "Thanks for the offer, Team A. We're going to try out for Team B. We hope you might keep the spot open for Little Johnny, but I understand if you can't".

Yes, you run the risk of not playing for Team A or Team B, but it's KIDS HOCKEY, and I'm sure they'll have a fun time on whatever Team C winds up being. I knew several kids who were devastated in September at not making the team they thought they should be on, and all wound up having great years on the team they did make.

Where was the lie? When you pay thousands to have your kid play. It's up to the family where that is.