Is this defence good enough?

Mortimer Snerd

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First, step away from the edge. Trouba is not going to be traded this year. As much as some of us want to see his entitled ass shipped off to this mythical horrible destination that is somehow worse than Winnipeg, it's not going to happen. It's clear the organization sees another Cup run this year, and they are going to keep the team intact as much as possible.

As to whether this team's D is good enough? Even with Trouba, my answer is no. Morrissey is our star, why isn't he locked up yet, Chevy? Without him, every day would be like Sunday. After him, you start talking about least damaging.

Buff is like a box of chocolates. Will you get a nice praline, or crunchy frog? Total game changer in both the good and bad sense of the phrase. Overpowering beast, aimless wanderer, or reckless risk taker... they're all in there and which one shows up on any given night can lead us to delight or despair.

Trouba is one of those people that can accurately be described as stupid. Worse, he's stupid with a mean streak. That's a bad combination. On that play he was concussed, you could see he was going head hunting again, but got the worst of it. I see injuries and suspensions in his future.

Myers is just a clumsy klutz in the D zone and we have his heir apparent waiting in the wings. Stanley. Oh joy.

Kulikov is meh and grossly overpaid. And who knows if his back will hold up. We must have been desperate for a LD when we offered that contract. And we still are.

Chiarot and Morrow. Well, at least they work cheap. Since we're spending too much elsewhere, we can't really afford better.

Niku needs more Moose time. All offense, no defense right now.

Poolman is the big unknown for this season. Can he play well enough to earn regular playing time on the Jets, or will he and Dano develop a press box bromance?

Sorry, I really don't see a serious Cup threat with this D corp. There's only so much Laine can do to propel this team to greatness. ;)

Just my opinions. There will be no charts or graphs presented as supporting evidence.

:laugh: Buffalo is not a myth. It is very real.
 
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Maukkis

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Nobody is saying that Trouba is not a VG Dman, nobody (well almost) is saying that he won't be missed. But losing him is only a disaster if we can't get decent value back.

I think you overvalue Myers a bit. I think he is a #5 with PP scoring as a plus. Maybe he is a 4/5 tweener.

If we lose Trouba the return has to include his eventual replacement or a significant upgrade at another position, like 2C for example.

We are not going to get the ideal trade return. Like it or not, his market value is somewhat reduced by the situation. But there are still plenty of potential deals that can work out well, if we get a bit of a break, or really good wheeling and dealing from Chevy. We may need to include some other good player to grease the deal if we are going to get value. And/or we might have to take on a bad contract.
Losing Trouba is a disaster in any case, but at least some of it can be mitigated by trading him for the right assets. Those DO NOT include expensive forwards such as Tyler Johnson, though. Replacing Trouba is a high priority, and it would be irresponsible to sacrifice precious cap space to add another luxury elsewhere at this point.

I want no part in extending Myers after this season, but I can't help but think that Chevy will feel pressured to do so anyway, given the porous depth we would otherwise have at D. I have little confidence in Myers being able to carry that second pairing with Kulikov, but when nobody else has even the slightest realistic chance of doing the same, he's going to have to step up. Same goes for everybody else, basically. Kulikov won't have a partner who has been an overkill for the role they played (3rd pairing Myers), which scares the living shit out of me. The bottom pairing is almost entirely dependent on Poolman's development. It would be massive if he could carry that pairing well enough for Maurice to trust them. Chiarot won't drive play there, that's for sure.

And suddenly, after looking at those roles which will likely be filled by tweeners and guys who aren't able to carry their pairings, it just becomes evident how catastrophic it is to lose Trouba. With him, you'd have Buff carrying the second pairing (and taking Kulikov with him) and Myers on the third where he can dominate.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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Losing Trouba is a disaster in any case, but at least some of it can be mitigated by trading him for the right assets. Those DO NOT include expensive forwards such as Tyler Johnson, though. Replacing Trouba is a high priority, and it would be irresponsible to sacrifice precious cap space to add another luxury elsewhere at this point.

I want no part in extending Myers after this season, but I can't help but think that Chevy will feel pressured to do so anyway, given the porous depth we would otherwise have at D. I have little confidence in Myers being able to carry that second pairing with Kulikov, but when nobody else has even the slightest realistic chance of doing the same, he's going to have to step up. Same goes for everybody else, basically. Kulikov won't have a partner who has been an overkill for the role they played (3rd pairing Myers), which scares the living **** out of me. The bottom pairing is almost entirely dependent on Poolman's development. It would be massive if he could carry that pairing well enough for Maurice to trust them. Chiarot won't drive play there, that's for sure.

And suddenly, after looking at those roles which will likely be filled by tweeners and guys who aren't able to carry their pairings, it just becomes evident how catastrophic it is to lose Trouba. With him, you'd have Buff carrying the second pairing (and taking Kulikov with him) and Myers on the third where he can dominate.

I don't see losing Trouba as a disaster, not at all. By itself, that is. It is easy to see our D being a very large open sore very soon. Trouba is gone, sometime in the next 2 years. I know some are still not convinced but I have only the tiniest doubt of that.

Buff is aging. So far he looks like playing well until he is 40+, but that can change pretty suddenly at his age.

If you don't like Myers on the 2nd pair, how much less will you like him on the 1st?

I fail to see the 2nd pair upside from Poolman. Tanev improved quite a bit at a similar age but I think he is an exception. Poolman plays a pretty steady game so he might be OK on the 2nd pair in an emergency but I doubt he improves enough to be a plus there. All we have in the pipeline at RHD is Green and Kovavcevic. I don't expect top 4 out of either of them. One could develop and that would be a nice surprise but it isn't something to bank on.

The left looks a little better, maybe a lot better but it is the maybe that is worrying. We need both Niku and Samberg to turn out well to have a strong left side behind JoMo.

I don't want to wait while Trouba's value erodes further. I want to get the best value possible for him and I think that means moving sooner rather than later.

We may end up having to trade one of our favourite wingers for more help at D and possibly C also. I don't think this team is completely built yet.
 

Maukkis

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I don't see losing Trouba as a disaster, not at all. By itself, that is. It is easy to see our D being a very large open sore very soon. Trouba is gone, sometime in the next 2 years. I know some are still not convinced but I have only the tiniest doubt of that.

Buff is aging. So far he looks like playing well until he is 40+, but that can change pretty suddenly at his age.

If you don't like Myers on the 2nd pair, how much less will you like him on the 1st?

I fail to see the 2nd pair upside from Poolman. Tanev improved quite a bit at a similar age but I think he is an exception. Poolman plays a pretty steady game so he might be OK on the 2nd pair in an emergency but I doubt he improves enough to be a plus there. All we have in the pipeline at RHD is Green and Kovavcevic. I don't expect top 4 out of either of them. One could develop and that would be a nice surprise but it isn't something to bank on.

The left looks a little better, maybe a lot better but it is the maybe that is worrying. We need both Niku and Samberg to turn out well to have a strong left side behind JoMo.

I don't want to wait while Trouba's value erodes further. I want to get the best value possible for him and I think that means moving sooner rather than later.

We may end up having to trade one of our favourite wingers for more help at D and possibly C also. I don't think this team is completely built yet.
Myers on the second pairing is something we should be able to live with, but only if he is given a solid partner to play with. The first pairing is just not an option.

If Niku became something close to a Gardiner or a Krug, we would likely be fine at LHD. However, that's probably not happening too soon, so until then, we'll have a gaping hole there. The RHD situation is already bad with the uncertainty revolving around Trouba, and if Buff starts to slow down, we'll be in shit deeper than the ocean.

A winger trade could help us, but trading wingers for defensemen is notoriously difficult, unless you're a top 3 GM dealing with a bottom 3 one. I'm of the opinion that the inevitable Trouba trade has to involve a defenseman coming back. Given the pipeline and weak depth in the roster, we cannot waste that trade chip by keeping him for two runs.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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Myers on the second pairing is something we should be able to live with, but only if he is given a solid partner to play with. The first pairing is just not an option.

If Niku became something close to a Gardiner or a Krug, we would likely be fine at LHD. However, that's probably not happening too soon, so until then, we'll have a gaping hole there. The RHD situation is already bad with the uncertainty revolving around Trouba, and if Buff starts to slow down, we'll be in **** deeper than the ocean.

A winger trade could help us, but trading wingers for defensemen is notoriously difficult, unless you're a top 3 GM dealing with a bottom 3 one. I'm of the opinion that the inevitable Trouba trade has to involve a defenseman coming back. Given the pipeline and weak depth in the roster, we cannot waste that trade chip by keeping him for two runs.

I know the first pairing is not an option for Myers but if Trouba leaves without returning a replacement and Buff ages out, that is what we are looking at. I doubt any of Poolman, Green, Kovacevic surpass Myers.

Niku might become that good but I am not counting on that. Those 2 guys are pretty **** good. The gaping hole isn't there as long as Buff can make a Morrow or Chiarot look like a 2nd pair D. Maybe by the time he can't either Niku or Samberg is ready to step in to the 2nd pair role.

It is the right side that scares me. LHD are also easier to acquire by trade. Trading middling wingers for top 4 D is notoriously difficult. We may need to trade a Connor or Ehlers to bolster the D. I know no one wants to even think about that but we may have little choice.
 

Maukkis

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I know the first pairing is not an option for Myers but if Trouba leaves without returning a replacement and Buff ages out, that is what we are looking at. I doubt any of Poolman, Green, Kovacevic surpass Myers.

Niku might become that good but I am not counting on that. Those 2 guys are pretty **** good. The gaping hole isn't there as long as Buff can make a Morrow or Chiarot look like a 2nd pair D. Maybe by the time he can't either Niku or Samberg is ready to step in to the 2nd pair role.

It is the right side that scares me. LHD are also easier to acquire by trade. Trading middling wingers for top 4 D is notoriously difficult. We may need to trade a Connor or Ehlers to bolster the D. I know no one wants to even think about that but we may have little choice.
You're the one saying that Trouba's departure would not be a disaster, yet you find all the same concerns I do. :laugh:

If we choose to patch the hole by putting Buff there, we no longer have the luxury of Buff carrying a tweener. If we don't, then we'll have to see whether Morrissey can carry someone like Trouba can (f***ing Stuart). Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

Carrying four top line wingers is not something I'd consider a good idea. It leaves way too little room for depth at other positions.
 

VictoriaJetsFan

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One of the issues with our D is that other than Morrissey we don't seem to have defensemen that can stand on their own. Their performance is so interconnected to their partners and their ice time. It's not the strongest foundation to build a top 6 on....really.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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You're the one saying that Trouba's departure would not be a disaster, yet you find all the same concerns I do. :laugh:

If we choose to patch the hole by putting Buff there, we no longer have the luxury of Buff carrying a tweener. If we don't, then we'll have to see whether Morrissey can carry someone like Trouba can (****ing Stuart). Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

Carrying four top line wingers is not something I'd consider a good idea. It leaves way too little room for depth at other positions.

I didn't say it would be a good thing. I think you are overstating it, not that it is totally wrong. How bad it is depends on a lot of variables. How do Chevy and Maurice handle it? I believe he is leaving. Its just a matter of exactly when. It is a challenge. It could turn into disaster depending on what Chevy does. But I wouldn't use such strong language until we see how it shakes out.
 

Jet

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Too many question marks in my mind:

Does Byfuglien continue to play the responsible game he played last year?
Does Myers stay healthy?
Does Trouba play or get dealt?
Does Poolman continue to develop?
Is Chiarot going to continue to improve?
Will Niku come in and contribute?
Will Kulikov stay healthy and find chemistry with someone (Myers?)
 
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Weezeric

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This has got to be the most prematurely negative thread on hfjets.

What happens if both of our #1 RHD leave or become horrible with nothing else coming in to replace them?!?

We might as well discuss our center depth once Scheifele starts to decline. We will really be in trouble then.

The Jets have by far the best RHD in the league. They have two guys who would be on the top pair of all but a couple teams. Myers certainly has weaknesses, but he would be the best RHD on a number of teams.

Come down off the ledge!
 

Channelcat

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This D group will still be adequate. Huddy needs to replaced at some point though. We can made some significant improvements on the coaching side very easily.
 

VictoriaJetsFan

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This has got to be the most prematurely negative thread on hfjets.

What happens if both of our #1 RHD leave or become horrible with nothing else coming in to replace them?!?

We might as well discuss our center depth once Scheifele starts to decline. We will really be in trouble then.

The Jets have by far the best RHD in the league. They have two guys who would be on the top pair of all but a couple teams. Myers certainly has weaknesses, but he would be the best RHD on a number of teams.

Come down off the ledge!


The context of the thread, that I attempted to articulate was what to do with the Jets eventual absence of Trouba. Given Trouba's contract situation I don't think its premature at all.

Discussing the centre depth is also a worthy exercise because its not that great if Little can't bounce back. It's not meant to be a pessimistic thread, just a realistic one. I still think the Jets are an elite team standing pat, but long term questions, valid ones, still exist.

And finally, its July, what else do we talk about?
 

Whileee

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This D group will still be adequate. Huddy needs to replaced at some point though. We can made some significant improvements on the coaching side very easily.
Jets were at or near the top of the NHL in preventing shots in dangerous areas. The D was able to overcome the inept coaching sufficiently to be among the NHL's best, I guess...

WPG
 

Channelcat

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Jets were at or near the top of the NHL in preventing shots in dangerous areas. The D was able to overcome the inept coaching sufficiently to be among the NHL's best, I guess...

WPG
They were adequate-very good by a number of metrics, but not good enough to win a championship. In terms of talent? Probably #1.
 

Channelcat

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Nobody in hockey circles will say he's a good coach. There's a reason he's never lasted anywhere (other than here). I've gone over it way too many times, I'm tired of it.
 

1stDan

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The defence looks great right now.

I feel way better about our blueline now than I did at the beginning of the year.

JoMo still putting in the work and polishing an already great all around game.
DeMelo is a beauty. Pionk is a machine. Poolman is finding some nastiness
RESTED Kulikov might stay off the stretcher for a while!

The top four is pretty solid IMO. The bottom pair isnt set in stone yet. But I think we have the horses!
 

Stumbledore

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The defence looks great right now.

I feel way better about our blueline now than I did at the beginning of the year.

JoMo still putting in the work and polishing an already great all around game.
DeMelo is a beauty. Pionk is a machine. Poolman is finding some nastiness
RESTED Kulikov might stay off the stretcher for a while!

The top four is pretty solid IMO. The bottom pair isnt set in stone yet. But I think we have the horses!

It's kind of fun to look at some of these threads after two years, re-read the anguish and predictions, see how pathetically wrong some of the prognosticators were and how uncannily accurate some of these posts turned out to be. Last fall, I alternated between feeling nervous and depressed about our newly patched together defensive corps. Today, like you, I'm feeling way better than I did at the start of the year.
 
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voyageur

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The defence looks great right now.

I feel way better about our blueline now than I did at the beginning of the year.

JoMo still putting in the work and polishing an already great all around game.
DeMelo is a beauty. Pionk is a machine. Poolman is finding some nastiness
RESTED Kulikov might stay off the stretcher for a while!

The top four is pretty solid IMO. The bottom pair isnt set in stone yet. But I think we have the horses!

The rest helps alot, the defense was playing pretty bruised up down the stretch, De Melo helped spread the depth out.
It's the first year Buff isn't leading the defense, so it's a different identity. They remind me more of our d-coach, and the way he played. I think Pionk is the key. He's the best skating defenseman on either side. Huddy played with a guy named Paul Coffey who had a pretty good career. This could be a breakout year for Pionk. He's our most crucial player in the playoffs, I expect him and Morrissey to be over 25 each game. Pionk is one of the best players I have seen keep his stamina through long shifts, and if the Jets come back as conditioned as they were coming into camp, without the injury woes, could be a solid group of 7, as I think Sbisa will play some games.
 

1stDan

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The rest helps alot, the defense was playing pretty bruised up down the stretch, De Melo helped spread the depth out.
It's the first year Buff isn't leading the defense, so it's a different identity. They remind me more of our d-coach, and the way he played. I think Pionk is the key. He's the best skating defenseman on either side. Huddy played with a guy named Paul Coffey who had a pretty good career. This could be a breakout year for Pionk. He's our most crucial player in the playoffs, I expect him and Morrissey to be over 25 each game. Pionk is one of the best players I have seen keep his stamina through long shifts, and if the Jets come back as conditioned as they were coming into camp, without the injury woes, could be a solid group of 7, as I think Sbisa will play some games.
I love Sbisa on the PK.
 

surixon

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Judging by training camp it looks like we have a refreshed and healthy Morrissey which will go a long ways to anchoring this defense. If DeMelo can just play a simple strong defensive game then I think our top pair will do just fine. It is the rest of the dcore that I am weary of. We need another top 4 player to play with Pionk, I think Samberg will be that guy in time but we may need a good stop gap. Bottom pairing is mediocre but adequate.

I think if we can get another second pairing dmen this summer and bring in a good third pair RD to mentor Samberg then I think we will have a good top 6 for next year.
 

voyageur

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Judging by training camp it looks like we have a refreshed and healthy Morrissey which will go a long ways to anchoring this defense. If DeMelo can just play a simple strong defensive game then I think our top pair will do just fine. It is the rest of the dcore that I am weary of. We need another top 4 player to play with Pionk, I think Samberg will be that guy in time but we may need a good stop gap. Bottom pairing is mediocre but adequate.

I think if we can get another second pairing dmen this summer and bring in a good third pair RD to mentor Samberg then I think we will have a good top 6 for next year.

I don't know if you want to invest in a top 4 defenseman, since that's 3-4 million (see Chiarot-Kulikov), and you have Heinola and Samberg both in the fight. De-Melo is the one you need for RH depth. I'd like to bring back a Beaulieu/Sbisa to be the PK leader, Sbisa can play top 4 too, if needed. Poolman is looking good on a 3rd pairing, and has Kovacevic behind him, who might be ready next year. The left side is more uncertain with Samberg, Heinola, Chisholm, Stanley all on ELCs, and with about 8 NHL games between them. Dahlstrom is signed, and he's probably #7/8, with Niku being pretty uncertain, as to where he fits (could he become a forward?).
 
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