Is there too much emphasis on a player's size?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Flames Draft Watcher

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
4,793
0
Calgary
Visit site
There's a lot of small junior guys that put up huge numbers. People love to trot out names like Fleury and St. Louis but those are the exceptions, not the rule. Small players have a lot of obstacles to overcome to make the NHL. To be successful they need to be more skilled, determined, fast, strong, etc than players 5 inches bigger than them or they will be shut down quite easily or become physically initimdated by the league as they get pounded, knocked down and abused by 6'5 defensemen all day.

And it's not like teams are unwilling to select small guys early as evidenced by Jeff Tambellini, P.M. Bouchard, Chistov, etc. If the player has elite skills and skating then he's probably worth taking a chance on.

But I'd say overall that size isn't overemphasized, it definitely should be a factor. The smaller or thinner players on the Flames like Kobasew and Saprykin who haven't filled out very well to this point are much more easily knocked off the puck. They aren't as effective and will never be unless they can add more core strength. And when I'm talking about size, it's not just about height. As one player mentioned smaller guys who are extremely strong for their size do not have as many problems adapting. Andrew Ference is a good example from a Flames perspective. The kid is only 5'10 and plays defense but at around 200 lbs he holds his own ground very well and can knock bigger players off the puck.

Those who think size doesn't matter at all are idealists IMO. One only has to look at a guy like Todd Bertuzzi and how hard he is to shut down to see how much of a difference size can make. A 5'11 Todd Bertuzzi would not be nearly as effective. Bigger forwards are harder to contain and shut down. Bigger defensemen make it easier to contain and shut down forwards. Bigger goalies take up more of the net. It's a positive attribute.
 

shveik

Registered User
Jul 6, 2002
2,852
0
Visit site
This issue keeps popping up, but I'll just drop my 2 cents (again) anyways.

Size is an asset like any other (skating, stickhandling, you name it). What turns off the teams is not the lack of size per se, but rather the degree of this "deficiency". For example, a 5'6" player would be like somebody who can only keep a puck on his stick for maybe few inches ;) The thing is, teams can hope that a player who can't skate, stickhandle or shoot would improve those skills. There is not a whole lot of growing that somebody can do. It is not like the teams do not draft small players, it is just that usually other assets that a player has are not enough to propel him into top rounds.
 

NYRGoalieGlut*

Guest
IMHO, not taking players that r incredibly small (weight included) isn't overemphasised, but taking players just because they're huge is. Give me a medium sized 6'0 player (w/ good weight, not necessarily huge, but not skinny) that's skilled and fast, over a 6'4 230 pound player, w/ so so skill w/ so so speed, just because he MAY turn out to be a power forward, because he might as well be a 3rd round checker or even a 4th liner. I hate when teams select players just because they're big, how many good PFs r there, it seems not that many, how many 4th line grinders r there? If u must take a player that's huge w/ so so skill and speed, at least take one later in the draft. This reminds me of NBA teams taking 7'5 stiffs, just because they're 7'5, and w/ a "little work" they can turn into something, and they almost never do. Small players, that r too small, don't make it in today's NHL that often, so not taking them high at least, I think isn't overemphasised.
 

Don'tcry4mejanhrdina

Registered User
Aug 4, 2003
11,338
2,118
This space.
La-La-Laprise said:
False. They LOOK faster but if you time them the bigger guys are faster than you think.
I know that. Lemieux in his prime is a perfect example of that. But most of the fastest aren't exactly huge. Gaborik is about 6'1" 190, Fata 6' 200, Koltsov 6' 200, Fedorov 6'2" 205, Walz 5'10" 180, Afinogenov 6' 190, Sami Kapanen 5'10" 185, St. Louis 5'7" 181, Donovan 6'2" 205, Chimera 6'2" 204, Scott Niedermayer 6'1" 200, Havlat 6'1" 194, ect... those are some of the fastest guys in the NHL and none of them are over 205 pounds. I know there are bug guys who can skate really fast, but how many guys that weigh 225-230 have top notch speed? VERY rare. Guys who don't have to carry around extra body weight (whether it's muscle or not) are usually faster than great big guys. I'm not trying to say that all little guys are fast and big guys slow, but I don't think we'll see a 6'4" 230 pound guy winning the fastest skater event at the all star game any time soon.
 

MikeC44

Registered User
Sep 18, 2003
454
0
Moncton, NB
Visit site
cob said:
The coaching mentality of today's game is what is going to destroy it.

Ever wonder why we can't sell this game in that States? Well, when the coaches demand that in order to make the NHL even the most offensive players have to play defense, you are essentially stifling thier offensive creativity. I mean, Hartley benching Kovalchuk to me is a joke. This guy is going to not only fill seasts for the Thrashers, but lift them out of them with his explosive offensive prowess. Trying to turn him into an all around player to me does way more harm then good.

This defense first attitude is what enables the Clark Wilm type players to get the call ups instead of the smaller firebug players that are a lot more exciting to watch. To me, this, as well as the lack of consistent officiating, is what is killing the NHL.

But Bob Hartley gets to keep his job because they win games, not because the arena is full.
 

LaLaLaprise

lalalaprise -twitter
Feb 28, 2002
8,716
1
Halifax, Nova Scotia
mario66 said:
I know that. Lemieux in his prime is a perfect example of that. But most of the fastest aren't exactly huge. Gaborik is about 6'1" 190, Fata 6' 200, Koltsov 6' 200, Fedorov 6'2" 205, Walz 5'10" 180, Afinogenov 6' 190, Sami Kapanen 5'10" 185, St. Louis 5'7" 181, Donovan 6'2" 205, Chimera 6'2" 204, Scott Niedermayer 6'1" 200, Havlat 6'1" 194, ect... those are some of the fastest guys in the NHL and none of them are over 205 pounds. I know there are bug guys who can skate really fast, but how many guys that weigh 225-230 have top notch speed? VERY rare. Guys who don't have to carry around extra body weight (whether it's muscle or not) are usually faster than great big guys. I'm not trying to say that all little guys are fast and big guys slow, but I don't think we'll see a 6'4" 230 pound guy winning the fastest skater event at the all star game any time soon.

Yeah but the shorter players Appear to be faster because they are moving theri arms and legs 100 mph. Gurein pulled a 13.9 at the skills comp which is as fast as gaborik and if you watch Gurein skate you wouldnt have thought he was that fast.

Bigger guys, have bigger strides, which makes them appear to be slower.
 

Oilers Chick

Registered User
Jun 7, 2002
5,974
1
Philly in April 2014
Visit site
Wow, some really good and intriguing answers everyone.

Ok, so if you were the coach (or GM or both), which one would you take:

5'9 with lots of grit or 6'4 with excellent speed? Why?

Keeping in mind that both players are similar in overall skill level.
 

Jason MacIsaac

Registered User
Jan 13, 2004
22,239
5,962
Halifax, NS
Oilers Chick said:
Wow, some really good and intriguing answers everyone.

Ok, so if you were the coach (or GM or both), which one would you take:

5'9 with lots of grit or 6'4 with excellent speed? Why?

Keeping in mind that both players are similar in overall skill level.
If they both have the same amount of skill and brains I would take the 6`4 speedy player every time out of 100. Its one thing to get a player with nice size, when they have speed that is something you don't pass up.
 

stockwizard*

Guest
La-La-Laprise said:
Yeah but the shorter players Appear to be faster because they are moving theri arms and legs 100 mph. Gurein pulled a 13.9 at the skills comp which is as fast as gaborik and if you watch Gurein skate you wouldnt have thought he was that fast.

Bigger guys, have bigger strides, which makes them appear to be slower.
I know what you mean. When I watched St. Louis at the skills comp, I thought holy look at that little guy go. Then he had one of the poorer times.
Small guys are usually quicker than big guys, but the big guys often times have a better top end speed.
If I was going to draft a small guy high up, he would need to be fast. In my opinion as long as you have speed, and are fairly strong on your skates it doesn't matter if you are 5'9''.
 

c-carp

Registered User
Mar 3, 2002
9,824
18
Illinois
Visit site
Oilers Chick said:
There seems to be more and more emphasis being placed on how tall a player is or how much he will weigh when he finally "fills out".

Is size over-emphasized too much? Why or why not?

Is it over-emphasized to the point that it does or can supercede talent/skill?

Your thoughts
I think that this is true in all sports, unless the person is extremely small. The Blues drafted a D-man last draft in tha later rounds with the last name of Pervishyn (I believe) He is 5'6 or 5'7. He is suppost to have all world skills so if he develops they will have a steal. If he stays that size I dont see how he will overcome that lack of size. The St.Louis and Fluery's of the sports world who do are rare.

On the other hand I remember watching the coverage of the 99 draft and McKenzie and the guys covering it saying that if Barett Jackman was 2 inches taller and heavies he would have been a top 10 pick. At his size 6'0 and 190-195 that should have been a case where he should have been picked because that to me is big enough. Many times you cannot judge the size of the fight in the dog and this kid has plenty. I am not complaining he fell to my team.
 

LaLaLaprise

lalalaprise -twitter
Feb 28, 2002
8,716
1
Halifax, Nova Scotia
Oilers Chick said:
Wow, some really good and intriguing answers everyone.

Ok, so if you were the coach (or GM or both), which one would you take:

5'9 with lots of grit or 6'4 with excellent speed? Why?

Keeping in mind that both players are similar in overall skill level.

5'09 Grit.

I value grit. Grit can make smaller players play larger than what they are.
 

Don'tcry4mejanhrdina

Registered User
Aug 4, 2003
11,338
2,118
This space.
La-La-Laprise said:
Yeah but the shorter players Appear to be faster because they are moving theri arms and legs 100 mph. Gurein pulled a 13.9 at the skills comp which is as fast as gaborik and if you watch Gurein skate you wouldnt have thought he was that fast.

Bigger guys, have bigger strides, which makes them appear to be slower.
Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. A guy like Martin Straka has to move his legs faster being only 5'9", when Scott Niedermayer makes it look effortless, yet he is faster than Straka. But I think that the fastest guys in the league tend to be average size at best (Chimera, Koltsov, Gaborik, ect...), even though there are guys like Guerin (6'2" 210) who have top notch speed, yet are big. Kovalchuk is another (only 6'1, but 220). It all depends on body type I guess. Look at Anthony Stewart, didn't he win fastest skater in the CHL skills competition despite being something like 6'1" 239? :dunno: While Pittsburgh has a prospect in Anshakov who is supposed to be really fast, and he's 6'3" 180. I love players who can skate, regardless of size, although I have a soft spot for little players, being only 5'7" myself. I think a lot of little guys in the NHL are fast because they usually need that edge if they are going against guys 30+ pounds heavier.
 

Don'tcry4mejanhrdina

Registered User
Aug 4, 2003
11,338
2,118
This space.
Oilers Chick said:
Wow, some really good and intriguing answers everyone.

Ok, so if you were the coach (or GM or both), which one would you take:

5'9 with lots of grit or 6'4 with excellent speed? Why?

Keeping in mind that both players are similar in overall skill level.
That's a tough one. I love speed, but grit is also importent. I think I'd go with the speed, it could make or break a players game.
 

KL*

Guest
andora said:
but wouldn't that be getting caught up in their potential at the nhl level, projecting them too early ? ;)

Not at all. You can project players to the NHL based on their numbers in junior relative to their competition and relative to what players in the past have done.
 

KL*

Guest
mario66 said:
That's a tough one. I love speed, but grit is also importent. I think I'd go with the speed, it could make or break a players game.

I see. So you will take Shean Donovan over Theo Fleury?
 

KL*

Guest
c-carp said:
I think that this is true in all sports, unless the person is extremely small. The Blues drafted a D-man last draft in tha later rounds with the last name of Pervishyn (I believe) He is 5'6 or 5'7. He is suppost to have all world skills so if he develops they will have a steal. If he stays that size I dont see how he will overcome that lack of size. The St.Louis and Fluery's of the sports world who do are rare.

1. It's not his size that he will have to overcome, it's the discriminatory treatment by NHL GMs that he will have to overcome.

2. St. Louis' and Fleurys are rare in the HOCKEY world, not the SPORTS world. You can be 5'7" in a lot of sports. Heck, even in the NBA. Nobody sat Spud Webb or Muggsy Bougues or even Earl Boykins just because they were short. If Isiaih Thomas was 5'10" then I am 7'1", and Isiaih won a couple championships. There are many short baseball players, and a 5'7" guy can be a RB or DB in football. In soccer, size doesn't matter at all, it's putting that ball in the net.

Honestly, I want someone to give me an example of an NHL player who "couldn't make it because of his size." Not someone who didn't get a fair shot because of his size, not someone who just didn't produce when he got his shot...I want an example of someone who got a shot, produced, but had to leave because he was "too small."

Here's a hint...he doesn't exist. Size does not matter in the NHL, outside the minds of the GMs and fans who buy into this archaic nonsense.
 

Vincent_TheGreat

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
6,128
1
Ontario
Visit site
Oilers Chick said:
There seems to be more and more emphasis being placed on how tall a player is or how much he will weigh when he finally "fills out".

Is size over-emphasized too much? Why or why not?

Is it over-emphasized to the point that it does or can supercede talent/skill?

Your thoughts

Absolutely not! Size is a major qualification now-a-days! There are few to none players that are 5'9 that have the talent or ability to with stand the physical play, unless the guy has unbelieveable talent its better to focus on a project thats bigger rather then a smaller project. DOes Size supercede talent, absolutely not! in the Case of St. Louis he was not ready out of University and needed to develop, he wasn't ready in Calgary he needed to develop but finally finished somewhat in his devlopment enough to succeed. Talent is alomst always first except in 04 when stupid teams like phoenix made stupid selections of size over skill early in the first, but other then that. Small players if equally or more talented will go High, see PM Bouchard top 10 in 02, and he was 5'10 and 157, thats puny!
 

Enoch

This is my boomstick
Jul 2, 2003
14,240
873
Cookeville TN
MY humble opinon on size:

If a player is small, but talented, draft him if he is going to be in a league where you can wait several years before signing him. I.e., you don't want to only have 1 year to sign him, NCAA or the European route is preferrable. If he isn't, I'd be more hesitant to select him. The fact of the matter is, alot of the "small" players still pan out, although it may take them longer. Lately, quite a few skilled "smaller" players have come out of the NCAA (Liles to name one) and performed quite well. They just need a bit more seasoning to get up to that physical playing field.

Also, somone mentioned grit....If a player is small, but bulky/gritty...I see no problem with drafting him. Look at Jordin Tootoo. He is 5'9" but he is very effective as an agitator/grinder, even as a rookie...
 

KL*

Guest
Vincent_TheGreat said:
There are few to none players that are 5'9 that have the talent

I see. So now talent is dependent on size?

Vincent_TheGreat said:
or ability to with stand the physical play,

Prove it. I am calling you out. Prove this. Prove that smaller players don't have the ability to "with stand"(sic) the physical play.

Vincent_TheGreat said:
unless the guy has unbelieveable talent its better to focus on a project thats bigger rather then a smaller project. DOes Size supercede talent, absolutely not! in the Case of St. Louis he was not ready out of University and needed to develop, he wasn't ready in Calgary he needed to develop but finally finished somewhat in his devlopment enough to succeed. Talent is alomst always first except in 04 when stupid teams like phoenix made stupid selections of size over skill early in the first, but other then that. Small players if equally or more talented will go High, see PM Bouchard top 10 in 02, and he was 5'10 and 157, thats puny!

Do you have a position on this matter? Or are you posting just to post? First you say that size is a "major qualification," and that size is a prerequisite for skill, then you end by saying that skill and talent are the most important thing.

What's your point? Do you have a point? Are you going to take a position?
 

John Flyers Fan

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
22,416
16
Visit site
Oilers Chick said:
There seems to be more and more emphasis being placed on how tall a player is or how much he will weigh when he finally "fills out".

Is size over-emphasized too much? Why or why not?

Is it over-emphasized to the point that it does or can supercede talent/skill?

Your thoughts

I don't really think it's overemphasized, and this is coming from someone that played college hockey at 5'6.

If you're undersized, you MUST be a great skater to compete in this current NHL. On top of being a great skater, you need to have a very high skill level and some serious grit.
 

Vincent_TheGreat

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
6,128
1
Ontario
Visit site
I see. So now talent is dependent on size? - NO, but there are less smaller players with elite skill because players are generally larger now.



Prove it. I am calling you out. Prove this. Prove that smaller players don't have the ability to "with stand"(sic) the physical play. - Soft players and small players dissapear when the going gets tough, Ribeiro and Bouchard are prime examples of players that can stand the physical play. It happens all the time, some smaller players can't take hits down low.



Do you have a position on this matter? Or are you posting just to post? First you say that size is a "major qualification," and that size is a prerequisite for skill, then you end by saying that skill and talent are the most important thing.

What's your point? Do you have a point? Are you going to take a position?
- Yes I have a position, there is not too much emphasis on size. I don't post for the sake of posting, never have. Size is a nice qualification but not necessary. Size is not a preequiste, your mixing up the meaning of different words as you have obviously mis-interpreted my post completely. Skill and talent are the most important and they happen to be in bigger size packages these days.
 

andora

Registered User
Apr 23, 2002
24,319
7,376
Victoria
ABQAvsFan said:
Not at all. You can project players to the NHL based on their numbers in junior relative to their competition and relative to what players in the past have done.

isn't that a tad risky, and also kind of the same thing you negatively described in that draft thread on the avs board?

ABQAvsFan said:
What happens is that if you see someone on a regular basis, if you watch them play, you stop seeing what that player is doing and you start seeing what you THINK he COULD do in the NHL. You project that player as an NHL player. Now, if you read Dollar Signs, that's exactly what baseball scouts are supposed to do. And it doesn't work.
.

i know we're talking stats and numbers in this thread, but isn't it really the same thing as you describe above? projecting young guys to do what they do, but in a relative manner, down the road in the nhl. isn't it all the same thing, isn't projecting a 150 pt player in the qmjhl to be a 80 pt player in the nhl (using stats primarily) the same as projecting a gritty captain leader in the whl to a 2nd/3rd line captain/assistant captain in the nhl (using what you've seen them do by watching a lot).. aren't those two things the same in principle..

honestly i'm curious, those two books you mentioned, dollar signs and moneyball, i want to read, but the only decent book store where i am doesn't have them, and would have to order them (i'm leaving for an extended period in less than a week so there's no point ordering)..but i want to read them badly to get a better perspective on, well everything
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->