Music: Is there a more influential musician for contemporary music than Louis Armstrong?

[Hippasus]

Spent most of my life being tortured by family members who played JAZZ. While Armstrong is good. I put Miles, Coltrane, Parker, Ellington, Goodman(token white), Hawkins, and Basie a head of Armstrong. I like Armstrong, but he gets points for doing stuff that others did first and he scores points because he somewhat refused to get involved in politics and was viewed as being harmless, while other Jazz people, who rocked the boat did not get the credit they deserved

It's being relatively tame that probably helps his case to be the most influential musician in between blues and jazz.

 

[Hippasus]

and you are over looking the guys the influences him

fats waller--as I stated before--when Armstrong played with him--Armstrong changed nearly everything about his style and his approach

Swing beats are often in 4/4 time and emphasize a downbeat on the 2 and 4. Then there is typically a bit of an eighth or sixteenth accentation or syncopated beat pattern through the 1 and 3. There is an alternation between slow and fast within the measures. Swing beats are a bit like a shuffle beat. This is why swing beats typically have a bit of a bounce to them. They are easy to feel and one can get locked into the phrases, which can open the door to improvising, dancing, or expanding or altering the groove in some way. Variations of this basic template have become common in the music since that time and can be found in all kinds of music directly or indirectly influenced by blues and jazz (rock, hip-hop, punk, death metal, grindcore, etc.). Although Armstrong didn't invent the swing beat, he pushed the style forward so much that he became the "gold standard" of it, in a way, with his skat style of vocals, his persona, etc. Perhaps one can point to some earlier or contemporaneous figure to Armstrong who influenced him in this way, but that case hasn't been made in this thread yet.

 

[Ouroboros]

I saw a Leonard Bernstein video on Youtube wherein it was claimed that contemporary (classical?) music is in a position where it must adjudicate a position between chromatic and diatonic sensibilities for composition.

I think this is essentially what has happened, to some extent at least. The wors of composers considered neo-romantic are strikingly more dissonant than the works of even most late-Romantic era composers, and even moreso than composers such as Wagner and Strauss who were known for their intense dissonances in their time. So I guess this could be seen as an adjudication between traditional diatonic/tonal composition and the intense chromaticism/atonality of much of modernity. It's also probably part of Schönberg's legacy - an emancipation of dissonance of sorts.

From Bernstein's perspective - I don't believe he was a great fan of most of what happened in 20th century classical. His taste seems firmly entrenched in the traditional. He would probably have counted himself among the critics who consider most of modern classical to be a sort of evolutionary dead-end, and that a return to traditional tonality was always inevitable and desirable.

 

[missingmika]

Depends on how you define contemporary. If you're talking last 5-10 years, it's Kanye West. If you're just talking music in general, probably.

 

[Chubbinz]

I think the 12 bar blues is a more important thing than any one musician. To my knowledge there hasn't ever been a name given for "the" guy that first starting using it, but if you want to give some credit you could look towards W.C Handy for being the first to publish songs written in 12 bar blues and thus causing it to become a standard.

 

[Jumptheshark]

one thing I find slightly amusing is that now one and I mean n0 one--has posted evidence to back up or refute the ops claim

First Fats Waller

 

[Jumptheshark]

and woody guthrie





without woody there is no Bob Dylan

 

[Jumptheshark]

3rd leadbelly

 

[Jumptheshark]

4th robert johnson

 

[Jumptheshark]

5th Charlie Parker

6th Coltrane

7th Miles Davies

 

[Jumptheshark]

8th Hank Williams

 

[Jumptheshark]

also for consideration

 

[Hippasus]

Depends on how you define contemporary. If you're talking last 5-10 years, it's Kanye West. If you're just talking music in general, probably.

That's more 'popular new release', I think, but I haven't actually heard new Kanye West. I think of contemporary as simply anything people are listening to in the last 25 years or so, music old or new.

 

[Hippasus]

one thing I find slightly amusing is that now one and I mean n0 one--has posted evidence to back up or refute the ops claim

First Fats Waller

Good example. However, I think myself and others have indeed backed up claims

 

[Jumptheshark]

Good example. However, I think myself and others have indeed backed up claims

with evidence not opinion

IE like videos of the artist

 

[Hippasus]

Bach's The Art of Fugue has several examples of what sound like swing rhythms but they aren't sustained enough to inspire music scenes or individual expression. Of course, such considerations are likely far removed from Bach's intentions.

with evidence not opinion

IE like videos of the artist

I gave historical narrative, music theory, and one source. These are actually forms of evidence. To the best of my knowledge, I provided neither empty opinion nor false info. It's better than clogging up the internet with videos.

 

[Jumptheshark]

curious to know how many people voicing opinions have studied music theory at some level.

and can give clear definitions of staves, clefs, rhythmic and pitch values, rhythmic metre and time signatures.

and of course different pitches and understanding what is just a noise and what is a music note. I am thinking back to the thread we had where some posters were pushing the theory that Axel Rose had the same pitch and range as Freddie Mercury

 

[kook10]

You could argue that Jelly Roll Morton has an equal or even greater claim. They were both huge players in early jazz, and Jelly Roll even might have had more stomp in him and therefore a clearer imprint on what would become jump and rock and roll.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Bach's The Art of Fugue has several examples of what sound like swing rhythms but they aren't sustained enough to inspire music scenes or individual expression. Of course, such considerations are likely far removed from Bach's intentions.

I gave historical narrative, music theory, and one source. These are actually forms of evidence. To the best of my knowledge, I provided neither empty opinion nor false info. It's better than clogging up the internet with videos.

videos and explaining your point of view is not clogging things up. A statement has been made about Satchmo, while I agree he is a great musician, influence something that is open to debate and comes down to perspective. How did he influence the music say of Woody Guthrie or Pete Seeger? Both those artist have been quoted by jazz players when it comes to progression and cord changes and flipping notes on their collective heads.. Fats Waller (who Satchmo played with) became a master of vocal arrangements and cord harmony and combining them into two. Armstrong even said several time, his time playing with Waller changed his perspective of music and what it could do and sound like.

Armstrong said that the greatest influence on him was how Waller wrote lyrics and the way he sang them with intonation and character. Look up the history of the song Aint Misbehavin and when and where it was written and the relationship to both the lyrics and harmony and the progression and regression in the song.

and since no one has actually posted any Armstrong music in this thread--why I do not know

here is 2 hours of music

 

[Hippasus]

curious to know how many people voicing opinions have studied music theory at some level.

and can give clear definitions of staves, clefs, rhythmic and pitch values, rhythmic metre and time signatures.

and of course different pitches and understanding what is just a noise and what is a music note. I am thinking back to the thread we had where some posters were pushing the theory that Axel Rose had the same pitch and range as Freddie Mercury

I have, to some degree. By the way, going through some of your videos.

 

[Hippasus]

videos and explaining your point of view is not clogging things up. A statement has been made about Satchmo, while I agree he is a great musician, influence something that is open to debate and comes down to perspective. How did he influence the music say of Woody Guthrie or Pete Seeger? Both those artist have been quoted by jazz players when it comes to progression and cord changes and flipping notes on their collective heads.. Fats Waller (who Satchmo played with) became a master of vocal arrangements and cord harmony and combining them into two. Armstrong even said several time, his time playing with Waller changed his perspective of music and what it could do and sound like.

Armstrong said that the greatest influence on him was how Waller wrote lyrics and the way he sang them with intonation and character. Look up the history of the song Aint Misbehavin and when and where it was written and the relationship to both the lyrics and harmony and the progression and regression in the song.

and since no one has actually posted any Armstrong music in this thread--why I do not know

here is 2 hours of music

kook10 might be right simply because swing rhythms are already present in his music at an earlier time. That is the attribute I am identifying as extremely influential for contemporary music. Armstrong has more timeless and epic music than Jelly Roll Morton or Fats Waller though.

 

[kook10]

kook10 might be right simply because swing rhythms are already present in his music at an earlier time. That is the attribute I am identifying as extremely influential for contemporary music. Armstrong has more timeless and epic music than Jelly Roll Morton or Fats Waller though.

Sure, but that largely is because of his longevity. His more timeless, epic, and popular music came later and in times when other acts were building on his (and their) earlier influence and innovating and influencing in their own ways.

Jelly Roll and Fats (stomp and stride) owed a whole lot to ragtime and Scott Joplin. Really what we are talking about here as the source of influence is the emergence of recorded music in the early 20th century and its distribution of previously isolated regional styles. That and the distribution of culture with the largest migration of people in US history from south to North.

 

[Hippasus]

I think the 12 bar blues is a more important thing than any one musician. To my knowledge there hasn't ever been a name given for "the" guy that first starting using it, but if you want to give some credit you could look towards W.C Handy for being the first to publish songs written in 12 bar blues and thus causing it to become a standard.

Such formal backdrops like the 12 measure blues are indeed important as they served as a sort of template by means of which to bring together different styles (in addition to the cultural migration of blacks in the U.S. and the commodification of music in the 20th century--as mentioned by kook10).

 

[Hippasus]

kook10 might be right simply because swing rhythms are already present in his music at an earlier time. That is the attribute I am identifying as extremely influential for contemporary music. Armstrong has more timeless and epic music than Jelly Roll Morton or Fats Waller though.

In case I wasn't clear, I was referring to Jelly Roll Morton in my first sentence here.

 

[Hippasus]

Sure, but that largely is because of his longevity. His more timeless, epic, and popular music came later and in times when other acts were building on his (and their) earlier influence and innovating and influencing in their own ways.

Jelly Roll and Fats (stomp and stride) owed a whole lot to ragtime and Scott Joplin. Really what we are talking about here as the source of influence is the emergence of recorded music in the early 20th century and its distribution of previously isolated regional styles. That and the distribution of culture with the largest migration of people in US history from south to North.

So perhaps the following could be said to be a chain of influence: Scott Joplin, Jelly Roll Morton, Fats Waller, Louis Armstrong. I'm unsure as to how someone like Robert Johnson fits into the mix. Going back to the roots of blues, after the other names, through passion and minimalism?