Is the plus/minus stat unfair to goal scorers?

[Spartachat]

Goal scorers tend to be in the ice during power plays and when the team is down a goal at the end of the game. During a power play you can't get a plus, you can only get a minus (shorthand goal against). At the end of the game, it is more likely to have an empty net goal scored against than your team to score a goal. This is one of the reasons Draisaitl has such a poor plus/minus this year.

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[StoneHands]

EN goals don't count against +/- so you can delete this thread.

Edit: I'm wrong but I'll leave this here to bask in my infamy.

 

[JT Kreider]

EN goals don't count against +/- so you can delete this thread.

Of course they count, how can you say that so confidently and yet be so wrong

 

[Khelandros]

Goal scorers tend to be in the ice during power plays and when the team is down a goal at the end of the game. During a power play you can't get a plus, you can only get a minus (shorthand goal against). At the end of the game, it is more likely to have an empty net goal scored against than your team to score a goal. This is one of the reasons Draisaitl has such a poor plus/minus this year.

This is not true.

 

[JoVel]

+/- is just a poor stat overall.

 

[JoVel]

EN goals don't count against +/- so you can delete this thread.

I'm pretty sure they do?

 

[gorangers0525]

EN goals don't count against +/- so you can delete this thread.

You're incorrect so please delete this post lol.

+- is unfair to all of us because it means literally nothing about an individual player's ability.

 

[bobholly39]

I feel as though the better value of +/- is to also include powerplay goals you're on the ice for as a "+" - but ignore PK goals when you're defending on the PK (would be too big a handicap - unless you only count pk goals as a +).

To take OP's Drai example. He's -12 this year. But he's been on the ice for a league leading 48 power play goals for. 48 - 12 = overall impact + 36.

If you wanted to do minor tweaks, and also give the player a - for any goals his team allows while on the Powerplay, that'd be fine too.

I don't like +/- in general - but if you want something to measure the overall impact on goal differential Drai has had on his team, this +36 seems a lot more sensible than the -12.

 

[teemussalami]

I'm surprised plus/minus is still being used as a main statistic, as flawed as it's proven to be.

 

[StoneHands]

Of course they count, how can you say that so confidently and yet be so wrong

Because I'm dumb.

I'm pretty sure they do?

You right.

You're incorrect so please delete this post lol.

+- is unfair to all of us because it means literally nothing about an individual player's ability.

I would delete but that's dirty.

 

[JT Kreider]

Because I'm dumb.

All good. I chose Kivlenieks over Talbot and his 44 save shutout in fantasy hockey last night, so I surely take the cake in dumbness

 

[Doctor No]

Goal scorers tend to be in the ice during power plays and when the team is down a goal at the end of the game. During a power play you can't get a plus, you can only get a minus (shorthand goal against). At the end of the game, it is more likely to have an empty net goal scored against than your team to score a goal. This is one of the reasons Draisaitl has such a poor plus/minus this year.

Define "unfair". What is plus-minus doing beyond what it claims to do?

Does plus-minus require context to be useful? Yes. All statistics require context to be useful.

 

[DRW204]

i hate when people compare traditional +/- to overall team goal differential (ie: player X is a (-4) on a team that is +15). does anyone else think this extremely silly?

 

[Leksand]

I'm surprised plus/minus is still being used as a main statistic, as flawed as it's proven to be.

I think it is a stat with many flaws and people who have looked at it much more closely tend to really think so.

Having said that, to me the question is why is points and goals per season or per game seen as such great end all be all stat in practice? If you say it ain’t so, go to any discussion about best all time, Hall of Fame worthiness, player x vs player y, and you will find page after page of points and goals stats without that much nuance. The belief in points as a really great overall summary stat is so strong among some that they even think era adjustment is bad - it’s points and goals and not much else.

Hockey games are won by scoring more goals than you let in and the latter aspect has so much less weight in virtually any discussion.

So, circling back to topic, +/- seems to be very flawed, but then what do you do?

BTW, just yesterday Matthews is beaten defensively for Dallas to score, then scores with a beautiful shot a few minutes later. Only the latter will count in discussions about his greatness in the future. “He was not good defensively” will be countered with “No he wasn’t’” or just ignored and that’s that. (I don’t watch enough Leads to know if he is great ok or bad defensively - it’s just an illustration of my point)

 

[Bergyesque]

Goal scorers tend to be in the ice during power plays and when the team is down a goal at the end of the game. During a power play you can't get a plus, you can only get a minus (shorthand goal against). At the end of the game, it is more likely to have an empty net goal scored against than your team to score a goal. This is one of the reasons Draisaitl has such a poor plus/minus this year.

Not true since Pastrnak, Matthews, McKinnon, Eichel and Aho all have more than 30 goals and all have positive plus/minus.

 

[aufheben]

Yes it is. One of the many reasons people dislike the stat.

 

[ItWasJustified]

You're not suppose to let in goals when you're on the PP.

 

[JackSlater]

That shorthanded goals count is a bit strange but other than that it's just a stat. A stat can't be flawed or unfair.

 

[Krewe]

Draisaitly isn't bad defensively because he has a bad +/-. He's bad defensively because his defense is bad. Sure I guess the +/- is correct in this case, but +/- in general is only mildly useful as a macro stat, and with a heavy grain of salt

 

[nshlphoenix]

Like all stats, they are a piece of an overall evaluation of a player. Anyone using a single stat to judge a player is just plain stupid.

 

[Jack Flask]

Of course a goal against while on pp should be a -Fyi +/- is a very tell-tale stat of a player’s effectiveness defensively. Is it the whole story , no but its a big part of it. Thats why its there

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

EN goals don't count against +/- so you can delete this thread.

Edit: I'm wrong but I'll leave this here to bask in my infamy.

I'm going to quote this just so you can't erase it.