Is the plus/minus stat unfair to goal scorers?

Discussion in 'National Hockey League Talk' started by Spartachat, Feb 14, 2020.

  1. Spartachat

    Spartachat Disgruntled Melnyk Bot

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    Goal scorers tend to be in the ice during power plays and when the team is down a goal at the end of the game. During a power play you can't get a plus, you can only get a minus (shorthand goal against). At the end of the game, it is more likely to have an empty net goal scored against than your team to score a goal. This is one of the reasons Draisaitl has such a poor plus/minus this year.
     
  2. StoneHands

    StoneHands Registered User

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    EN goals don't count against +/- so you can delete this thread.

    Edit: I'm wrong but I'll leave this here to bask in my infamy.
     
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  3. JT Kreider

    JT Kreider FIRE GORDIE CLARK

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    Of course they count, how can you say that so confidently and yet be so wrong
     
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  4. Khelandros

    Khelandros Registered User

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    This is not true.
     
  5. JoVel

    JoVel Registered User

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    +/- is just a poor stat overall.
     
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  6. JoVel

    JoVel Registered User

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    I'm pretty sure they do?
     
  7. gorangers0525

    gorangers0525 Registered User

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    You're incorrect so please delete this post lol.

    +- is unfair to all of us because it means literally nothing about an individual player's ability.
     
  8. bobholly39

    bobholly39 Registered User

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    I feel as though the better value of +/- is to also include powerplay goals you're on the ice for as a "+" - but ignore PK goals when you're defending on the PK (would be too big a handicap - unless you only count pk goals as a +).

    To take OP's Drai example. He's -12 this year. But he's been on the ice for a league leading 48 power play goals for. 48 - 12 = overall impact + 36.

    If you wanted to do minor tweaks, and also give the player a - for any goals his team allows while on the Powerplay, that'd be fine too.

    I don't like +/- in general - but if you want something to measure the overall impact on goal differential Drai has had on his team, this +36 seems a lot more sensible than the -12.
     
  9. teemussalami

    teemussalami Registered User

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    I'm surprised plus/minus is still being used as a main statistic, as flawed as it's proven to be.
     
  10. StoneHands

    StoneHands Registered User

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    Because I'm dumb.

    You right.

    I would delete but that's dirty.
     
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  11. JT Kreider

    JT Kreider FIRE GORDIE CLARK

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    All good. I chose Kivlenieks over Talbot and his 44 save shutout in fantasy hockey last night, so I surely take the cake in dumbness
     
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  12. Doctor No

    Doctor No Registered User

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    Define "unfair". What is plus-minus doing beyond what it claims to do?

    Does plus-minus require context to be useful? Yes. All statistics require context to be useful.
     
  13. DRW204

    DRW204 Registered User

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    i hate when people compare traditional +/- to overall team goal differential (ie: player X is a (-4) on a team that is +15). does anyone else think this extremely silly?
     
  14. Leksand

    Leksand Registered User

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    I think it is a stat with many flaws and people who have looked at it much more closely tend to really think so.

    Having said that, to me the question is why is points and goals per season or per game seen as such great end all be all stat in practice? If you say it ain’t so, go to any discussion about best all time, Hall of Fame worthiness, player x vs player y, and you will find page after page of points and goals stats without that much nuance. The belief in points as a really great overall summary stat is so strong among some that they even think era adjustment is bad - it’s points and goals and not much else.

    Hockey games are won by scoring more goals than you let in and the latter aspect has so much less weight in virtually any discussion.

    So, circling back to topic, +/- seems to be very flawed, but then what do you do?

    BTW, just yesterday Matthews is beaten defensively for Dallas to score, then scores with a beautiful shot a few minutes later. Only the latter will count in discussions about his greatness in the future. “He was not good defensively” will be countered with “No he wasn’t’” or just ignored and that’s that. (I don’t watch enough Leads to know if he is great ok or bad defensively - it’s just an illustration of my point)
     
  15. Bergyesque

    Bergyesque Been there, done that.

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    Not true since Pastrnak, Matthews, McKinnon, Eichel and Aho all have more than 30 goals and all have positive plus/minus.
     
  16. aufheben

    aufheben as if

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    Yes it is. One of the many reasons people dislike the stat.
     
  17. ItWasJustified

    ItWasJustified Registered User

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    You're not suppose to let in goals when you're on the PP.
     
  18. JackSlater

    JackSlater Registered User

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    That shorthanded goals count is a bit strange but other than that it's just a stat. A stat can't be flawed or unfair.
     
  19. Krewe

    Krewe Registered User

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    Draisaitly isn't bad defensively because he has a bad +/-. He's bad defensively because his defense is bad. Sure I guess the +/- is correct in this case, but +/- in general is only mildly useful as a macro stat, and with a heavy grain of salt
     
  20. nshlphoenix

    nshlphoenix Registered User

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    Like all stats, they are a piece of an overall evaluation of a player. Anyone using a single stat to judge a player is just plain stupid.
     
  21. Jack Flask

    Jack Flask Registered User

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    Of course a goal against while on pp should be a -Fyi +/- is a very tell-tale stat of a player’s effectiveness defensively. Is it the whole story , no but its a big part of it. Thats why its there
     
  22. Sidney the Kidney

    Sidney the Kidney Missing Link

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    I'm going to quote this just so you can't erase it. :D
     

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