Is the FHL back to 5 teams?

[Sports Enthusiast]

I don't believe that is true. The majority of AHL teams are now owned by NHL teams. They may not be profitable in the strict sense of AHL income exceeding AHL expenses, but the economic advantages to the NHL team outweigh those considerations for those teams. Most of the privately owned AHL teams are at least making a modest profit - the ones that weren't profitable were bought and moved for the most part.
As far as the ECHL goes, I had the chance to drive commissioner emeritus Pat Kelly to the airport last season, and I asked him about that. He still attends all the league meetings and knows the owners. He said all but a few are at least breaking even. Of those that lose money it isn't a lot, and most of those are satisfied with that. The Quad City team he mentioned was operated by the owners son, who was a very poor businessman, and wouldn't listen to any help or advice from the league office or other owners. He had plenty of opportunity to do better financially, but just didn't run the team properly.
You aren't going to make millions owning an ECHL team, but the idea that every team loses money just isn't true.

Theres obviously varying factors. Most AHL teams suffer because of NHL ownership. On the ice, with the NHL teams taking over the whole income thing is more of a moot point.

The ECHL is kind of a different ballgame though. A lot of it comes down to arena ownership. If you get a certain amount of attendees per game that you need to hit to break even or even turn a profit thats one half of the battle. Theres expenses though to take care of. Obviously youre gunna pay a staff but you eill also either be paying rent or paying vendors and other stuff. Nobody really got privy to the finances but I found it interesting last year with the arena deal that was in place the guy who was to be involved figured it would be cheaper to pay for an entry fee of an expansion team rather than pay off the team debt. It was mentioned a few posts above the amount of butts you need per game to break even in juniors and this league but I always wondered about the ECHL and AHL. I figured in the ECHL it was close to 3,000. For most of the years the Jackals did hover around the mark. Granted nobody ever really knew the finances and the Nichols years they were giving free tickets away like hotcakes. I assume because they owned the arena they banked on concession sales to offset.

I should say when I heard this it was maybe about 8 years or so ago and the league landscapes were entirely different. The ECHL had all those floundering Southern markets and you had the teams in California in cities like Stockton who actually declared financial bankruptvy as a city. You also had the CHL. Maybe taking the strong CHL teams and getting rid of the smaller ECHL markets has changed things. Though im stunned Wheeling is still surviving.

 

[Captain Crash]

I think the next season or two will determine if the FHL will ... merge with the SPHL,

0% chance of this

It was mentioned a few posts above the amount of butts you need per game to break even in juniors and this league but I always wondered about the ECHL and AHL. I figured in the ECHL it was close to 3,000.

Contrary to popular belief, there's no magic attendance number that makes a team profitable in a given league. Their lease, travel, sponsorships, and local economy are huge variables that make every franchise's business model unique.

Though im stunned Wheeling is still surviving.

A perfect example of the above. They have an incredibly favorable lease. Their geographic location makes most of their travel cheap. They're the only team in a town that has a surprising number of large companies, so they're able to get lucrative sponsorships. The cost of living in Wheeling is very low, which means they can pay less to employees and spend less on other expenses, including the mandatory player housing. So while they may not draw nearly as much in attendance as say Toledo or Orlando, they don't have to because their overall expenses are a lot lower.

Comparing attendance is rarely an accurate portrayal of a franchise's financial stability.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

keep in mind, the USPHL, Outback, just added a team and there's more than just the USPHL, There's another whole league called the NA3EHL, which until this year had a team in Binghamton, in fact many AHL Markets AS well as ECHL ones that transitioned had junior offshoots, including Portland and Manchester, in fact, my local market now has a NA3EHL team on one side of the river and a new USPHL entry on the opposite side of said river , no less than 5 minutes from here beginning this season.

The USPHL and their predecessor EJHL had a lot of teams sponsored by those teams they share a market in. The USPHL’s business model and their leaving USA Hockey is specifically about offering free-to-play hockey (NCDC division) by taxing the other junior teams and youth teams in the organization and not selling tickets because people won’t go. The teams are in those markets because that’s where they’ve established their organization. They don’t draw fans or sponsorships and are 100% financially driven by those players.

Contrary to popular belief, there's no magic attendance number that makes a team profitable in a given league. Their lease, travel, sponsorships, and local economy are huge variables that make every franchise's business model unique.



A perfect example of the above. They have an incredibly favorable lease. Their geographic location makes most of their travel cheap. They're the only team in a town that has a surprising number of large companies, so they're able to get lucrative sponsorships. The cost of living in Wheeling is very low, which means they can pay less to employees and spend less on other expenses, including the mandatory player housing. So while they may not draw nearly as much in attendance as say Toledo or Orlando, they don't have to because their overall expenses are a lot lower.

Comparing attendance is rarely an accurate portrayal of a franchise's financial stability.

That was referencing my comment about junior teams (USHL-NAHL) reliance on attendance, with ticket revenue making up a substantial portion of their revenue stream, with money from pre-season camps being the other big one, in most cases bringing in more than corporate sponsorship. Obviously travel eats up a lot of that, with teams like Carolina Thunderbirds, Youngstown Phantoms, and Fairbanks Ice Dogs spending a lot more than their counterparts. For juniors and probably the Fed, attendance is pretty good indicator of financial health.

AHL isn’t even about making money, it’s about prospect development. Would the NHL who owns those teams prefer them to not hemorrhage money? Of course. ECHL has the middle ground between there and juniors where they have leases and extensive travel, but still rely on game day revenue.

 

[GindyDraws]

Okay, so the Mentor Ice Breakers is a thing.

And the odds that I give every team making a full schedule to be 0%.

Also, I'm still befuddled as to why when the Elimra arena was bought, the new owner was adamant he wanted nothing to do with the Jackals, yet wants to put a glorified beer league team in a clown shoes operation.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Okay, so the Mentor Ice Breakers is a thing.

And the odds that I give every team making a full schedule to be 0%.

Also, I'm still befuddled as to why when the Elimra arena was bought, the new owner was adamant he wanted nothing to do with the Jackals, yet wants to put a glorified beer league team in a clown shoes operation.

what, so you're saying Elmira should never have pro hockey because of the clown show that killed pro hockey in Port Huron and Louisville, JD, BECAUSE THAT'S EXACTLY WHY Elmira and the ECHL TERMINATED THAT FRANCHISE, what does this expansion have to do with the Jackals being shut down after the black eye that the Afr's were, not just there but in those other two markets, and you now know why Louisville will never get pro hockey ever because of the above clown show ownership that the Afr's are.....

the Jackals should've been terminated the minute the arena went into receivership, in all honesty once the legal suits started and were made public knowledge, here, and other forums similar to these forums, is that a clown show, also.

 

[Dingo44]

Okay, so the Mentor Ice Breakers is a thing.

And the odds that I give every team making a full schedule to be 0%.

Also, I'm still befuddled as to why when the Elimra arena was bought, the new owner was adamant he wanted nothing to do with the Jackals, yet wants to put a glorified beer league team in a clown shoes operation.

I've been to a bunch of FHL games in multiple cities and it's obvious you've never been to a game.

 

[royals119]

Okay, so the Mentor Ice Breakers is a thing.

And the odds that I give every team making a full schedule to be 0%.

Also, I'm still befuddled as to why when the Elimra arena was bought, the new owner was adamant he wanted nothing to do with the Jackals, yet wants to put a glorified beer league team in a clown shoes operation.

I'm not sure that the owner of the new FHL team also bought the arena. I thought he was just leasing the arena.
I assume he would rather have an FHL team vs buying the Jackals because it is cheaper. The expansion franchise from the FHL likely cost less than he would have had to pay for either the original Jackals franchise, or an expansion from the ECHL. The Jackals organization also had significant debt, so if he bought that team he'd be saddled with their old debts too. Also, and FHL team is cheaper to operate due to lower salaries, few or no player benefits, less games, etc.

I've never seen an FHL game, so I can't comment on the quality firsthand. As an outsider looking in I can see where you get the "beer league" impression, since it looks like the players have other jobs during the season, and the rosters change from week to week, with some players having no significant history of playing pro, junior or college. That makes it appear like they are just throwing together a roster of guys from the local adult rec league from week to week in some cases. Probably not every team, and certainly not every player though. There are cases where that used to happen in the ECHL too. (although not as much anymore, since there are fewer pro teams overall, and ECHL teams can sign players from the SPHL or FHL when they need to fill out a roster.)

 

[JMCx4]

... I've never seen an FHL game, so I can't comment on the quality firsthand. As an outsider looking in I can see where you get the "beer league" impression, since it looks like the players have other jobs during the season, and the rosters change from week to week, with some players having no significant history of playing pro, junior or college. That makes it appear like they are just throwing together a roster of guys from the local adult rec league from week to week in some cases. ...

I've been to a handful of Danville Dashers games over the last several seasons, mostly playoff games. By that time each season, the rosters are relatively steady & the collection of players either stink or look like a team. The FHL standings by each season's end typically shows one or two dominant teams, with the rest way behind (some of that due to teams not playing full schedules due to various forms of instability). Overall skill level is about what you'd expect for the lowest level of pro hockey in North America: One or two guys per team who have a chance to advance one or MAYBE two levels before they retire, but the rest just there because they want to play hockey. When the majority of your younger recruits come from lower tier Canadian & U.S. junior programs, you can't expect much.

 

[Captain Crash]

I've been to a bunch of FHL games in multiple cities and it's obvious you've never been to a game.

I've also been to a bunch of FHL games in multiple cities and I agree wholeheartedly with the way he characterized it.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

Okay, so the Mentor Ice Breakers is a thing.

And the odds that I give every team making a full schedule to be 0%.

Also, I'm still befuddled as to why when the Elimra arena was bought, the new owner was adamant he wanted nothing to do with the Jackals, yet wants to put a glorified beer league team in a clown shoes operation.

Deal fell through. That or it was all a staged ruse from the beginning. The arena hasnt been bought, its now being leased. But Nichols could buy it in the future per the deal. I think the Jackals folding was a political move. Nichols had an FHL franchise rihts required before then. Weeks after it was announced the Jackals were folding the deal of an alleged arena buy was called off.

what, so you're saying Elmira should never have pro hockey because of the clown show that killed pro hockey in Port Huron and Louisville, JD, BECAUSE THAT'S EXACTLY WHY Elmira and the ECHL TERMINATED THAT FRANCHISE, what does this expansion have to do with the Jackals being shut down after the black eye that the Afr's were, not just there but in those other two markets, and you now know why Louisville will never get pro hockey ever because of the above clown show ownership that the Afr's are.....

the Jackals should've been terminated the minute the arena went into receivership, in all honesty once the legal suits started and were made public knowledge, here, and other forums similar to these forums, is that a clown show, also.

Afr isnt perfect by any means but the dog and pony show continued after and got worse. Atleast under Afr the on ice product wa usually competitive. The only difference between Afr and post Afr is that after Afr it became friends of the local politicians and then it became local government agency. So instead of getting screwed and not getting their promises they could now do the screwing over

I'm not sure that the owner of the new FHL team also bought the arena. I thought he was just leasing the arena.
I assume he would rather have an FHL team vs buying the Jackals because it is cheaper. The expansion franchise from the FHL likely cost less than he would have had to pay for either the original Jackals franchise, or an expansion from the ECHL. The Jackals organization also had significant debt, so if he bought that team he'd be saddled with their old debts too. Also, and FHL team is cheaper to operate due to lower salaries, few or no player benefits, less games, etc.

I've never seen an FHL game, so I can't comment on the quality firsthand. As an outsider looking in I can see where you get the "beer league" impression, since it looks like the players have other jobs during the season, and the rosters change from week to week, with some players having no significant history of playing pro, junior or college. That makes it appear like they are just throwing together a roster of guys from the local adult rec league from week to week in some cases. Probably not every team, and certainly not every player though. There are cases where that used to happen in the ECHL too. (although not as much anymore, since there are fewer pro teams overall, and ECHL teams can sign players from the SPHL or FHL when they need to fill out a roster.)

All I really know about that is Robbie Nichols bought the franchise rights of some FHL team in March 2017, no idea what franchise or anything. Wasnt really following the FHL. Youre probably right on the cost but he didnt fold the Jackals. That was the guy who was going to buy the arena but the more I think about it I feel like that was some secretive political decision. At that time(and still)the IDA actually owns the arena. When the ownership change was announced at a press conference the guy wasnt there but the county executive and his right hand man that led economic growth and is looking to replace him this fall were there leading the presser. The guy who bought it never appeared in a news interview or anything, Then a few weeks later the deal was called off. Some people I know say the guy was interested but actually backed out way earlier and never agreed to buy it. More questions than answers. Maybe Nichols and the political heads made the call. I highly doubt Nichol has that kind of capital to buy the arena, take on the debt and field a team, especially if it had been an ECHL one.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

What a trainwreck. I like the logo to a degree but thats about it. Thats the only thing I can like about this.

Elmira hockey team chooses Enforcers as nickname, Brent Clarke as head coach

I hate that they took it and made something that could work into a societal type issue. They are catering to and playing a "political" agenda from day one and you admit it in your presser why you named it that. I know the issue is a tired one. Im fine with people having their own views. Where I draw a line in the sand is when im told I should support authority, believe all the people in prison are bad people, that none of them can change and none are there due to misfortune. I know a few people who have been CO's, even through relation, im not going to lie and say they are all genuine sweethearts or anything like this. Not big for labels or control.

Interesting they mention a radio broadcaster but not that they have a radio station home.

 

[Dingo44]

I like the new name in Elmira.

And I like FHL hockey. The league is a trainwreck but in a fun way. Hockey is actually good and it's nice to not have to worry about systems and just be able to see two teams going at it for fun. Price is right too.

I've brought a bunch of people to the Thunderbirds games and they've all loved it and most come back.

I saw NHL games in Buffalo, Raleigh, Detroit, and Vegas last year, USHL games in Plymouth, MI, and OHL games in Windsor, Sarnia, and London. I have about as much fun in Winston as any of them - it's a different kind of fun, but still fun never the less.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

I like the new name in Elmira.

And I like FHL hockey. The league is a trainwreck but in a fun way. Hockey is actually good and it's nice to not have to worry about systems and just be able to see two teams going at it for fun. Price is right too.

I've brought a bunch of people to the Thunderbirds games and they've all loved it and most come back.

I saw NHL games in Buffalo, Raleigh, Detroit, and Vegas last year, USHL games in Plymouth, MI, and OHL games in Windsor, Sarnia, and London. I have about as much fun in Winston as any of them - it's a different kind of fun, but still fun never the less.

The name would work but the reasoning for itis just well...a bit buzz killing because it has nothing to truly do with enforcer as the meaning so much. If they used it through the hockey intent that would be awesome.

The top pro leagues are becoming too corporate and boring. Its not about winning anymore because of all these TV contracts they can make money without internal needs really.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

What a trainwreck. I like the logo to a degree but thats about it. Thats the only thing I can like about this.

Elmira hockey team chooses Enforcers as nickname, Brent Clarke as head coach

I hate that they took it and made something that could work into a societal type issue. They are catering to and playing a "political" agenda from day one and you admit it in your presser why you named it that. I know the issue is a tired one. Im fine with people having their own views. Where I draw a line in the sand is when im told I should support authority, believe all the people in prison are bad people, that none of them can change and none are there due to misfortune. I know a few people who have been CO's, even through relation, im not going to lie and say they are all genuine sweethearts or anything like this. Not big for labels or control.

Interesting they mention a radio broadcaster but not that they have a radio station home.

No one is telling you to support anything. This isn't about politics. It's a calculated marketing message aimed at selling hockey tickets. Take your politics elsewhere.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

So, with all that said, the FHL has the potential to have two stable markets for the first time ever.

That said, the actual hockey isn't any good, so they'll have to market the crap out of it.

Does anyone think this will be the year that every team, from top to bottom, plays the same number of games? Personally, I doubt it. I'll put my money on Mentor being this year's midseason fold.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

So, with all that said, the FHL has the potential to have two stable markets for the first time ever.

That said, the actual hockey isn't any good, so they'll have to market the crap out of it.

Does anyone think this will be the year that every team, from top to bottom, plays the same number of games? Personally, I doubt it. I'll put my money on Mentor being this year's midseason fold.

how about Both teams thriving for a change, Eddie

 

[CrazyEddie20]

I think Carolina will continue to be successful, and Elmira has a good chance. The other four? Not so sure.

 

[JMCx4]

I think Carolina will continue to be successful, and Elmira has a good chance. The other four? Not so sure.

Port Huron will draw strong again this season, and I expect Danville to rebound from last season's dip below 1K per game (though maybe still under that milestone). Soskin will make sure both teams stay vital. Watertown had a good attendance year last season to build on in 2018/19 as well. The League will not fail solely on drooping attendance.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

ELMIRA'S MAJOR ISSUE likely becomes can Nichols restore faith in the market to help fade the memory of the final years of the Jackals, even though that will sadly, always be a part of that market, and how long will the market/fanbase forget what occurred there

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

ELMIRA'S MAJOR ISSUE likely becomes can Nichols restore faith in the market to help fade the memory of the final years of the Jackals, even though that will sadly, always be a part of that market, and how long will the market/fanbase forget what occurred there

The lack of quality will be a bigger issue than that. Seriously D3 is way better and Cornell is only 45 minutes away.

 

[Nightsquad]

The lack of quality will be a bigger issue than that. Seriously D3 is way better and Cornell is only 45 minutes away.

Can you even get tickets to attend games at Cornell? My understanding is there is a wait list for season tickets. Even with the Big Red's somewhat close proximity Elmira-Corning is a lunch box town, blue collar. Cornell is representation of Ivy league, more elitist. I am sure the FHL and The Enforcer identity would align well with the Chemung and Allegheny County fan base.

 

[iamjs]

Pennsyltucky? Haha I thought only us people from upstate NY called it that. But I must confess upstate NY isnt much different. Economic depression, opiod crisis and all the same.

Ive also come to realize most cities in the country suck and are about the same. Poor economics, drugs, ugly architecture, smug, smelly, polluted air. The only difference is some have more billionaires and or millionaires than others. Thats mostly it. The smaller the city the less entertainment options.

Nah, even those of us that live here refer to it as Pennsyltucky, but I think it's more directed at certain areas. I've heard it used with Johnstown even by those who live in the city itself.

That said, those who live in Pennsyltucky are at least happy that they don't live in Fayettenam (aka Fayette County.) Fayettenam is the PA equivalent of giving "Florida Man" his own section of the city in the middle of nowhere.