Is the attendance in the OHL declining

[etr102]

They generally do better after the holidays. They are not big crowds by the standards of some of the OHL franchises, but will usually draw around 3,000 on average, with a few sellouts a year. The official arena capacity is about 3,500, and they've had crowds as big as 4,000+.

Considering all the other things to do in the area, that's not bad. There are four major league sports teams, two major college programs (with football, basketball and hockey as big draws), plus headliner concerts and several large casinos. That's a lot of competition for people's entertainment time and money. No other OHL market (now that Toronto no longer has a team) has anywhere near that much entertainment competition, and the local media provides almost zero coverage of the team.

I'd have to disagree that "No other OHL market has that much entertainment competition."

The Windsor Spitfires compete with those exact same 6 sports programs that you mentioned for media attention. In fact, Windsor is FAR closer to the Tigers, Lions and Red Wings than Plymouth is.

If the average Windsorite is given a choice between Tigers tickets and Spits tickets, I'd say 90% would choose the Tigers tickets.

I'm also not sure what "now that Toronto no longer has a team" means. Mississauga has an OHL team and is a suburb of Toronto much like Plymouth is to Detroit.

 

[Whalers Fan]

I'd have to disagree that "No other OHL market has that much entertainment competition."

The Windsor Spitfires compete with those exact same 6 sports programs that you mentioned for media attention. In fact, Windsor is FAR closer to the Tigers, Lions and Red Wings than Plymouth is.

If the average Windsorite is given a choice between Tigers tickets and Spits tickets, I'd say 90% would choose the Tigers tickets.

I'm also not sure what "now that Toronto no longer has a team" means. Mississauga has an OHL team and is a suburb of Toronto much like Plymouth is to Detroit.

And from what I've seen Mississauga has issues drawing fans, too.

When you consider the border crossing time, Plymouth and Windsor can be about the same driving time to downtown, too. I can get to the Detroit stadiums in about 30 minutes. And do many people from across the border really frequent UofM and MSU sporting events, which have huge attendance figures -- especially for football?

Anyway, this has always been a "big time sports" town, and the Whalers are a small fish (no pun intended) in a very large pond. At best, they would rank 11th in the market for sports teams, behind the Tigers, Lions, Red Wings, Pistons, UM football/basketball/hockey, and MSU football/basketball/hockey.

 

[etr102]

And from what I've seen Mississauga has issues drawing fans, too.

When you consider the border crossing time, Plymouth and Windsor can be about the same driving time to downtown, too. I can get to the Detroit stadiums in about 30 minutes. And do many people from across the border really frequent UofM and MSU sporting events, which have huge attendance figures -- especially for football?

Anyway, this has always been a "big time sports" town, and the Whalers are a small fish (no pun intended) in a very large pond. At best, they would rank 11th in the market for sports teams, behind the Tigers, Lions, Red Wings, Pistons, UM football/basketball/hockey, and MSU football/basketball/hockey.

I don't disagree with you that Mississauga suffers from attendance woes. My point was that 'Toronto no longer has a team' didn't quite make sense.

And as I said before, the Spitfires also rank behind those same same teams for fan and media attention. Thousands of Windsorites attend every Tiger and Red Wing game. It takes roughly 10 minutes to get from Windsor to Comerica Park. It probably takes more time to find a spot to park on game day than it does to cross the border. Transit Windsor has special event buses that go directly from Windsor to Comerica Park and they pack DOZENS of full buses. (Plus all the people who drive over).

There's probably more people from Windsor at Comerica Park than there are from Plymouth.

And yes, we attend UofM and MSU Football games as well, but not nearly to the same scale as Tigers and Red Wings games.

Anyway, my point is is that Plymouth is far from being the only 'small fish' in a big market.

 

[mouse 29]

And from what I've seen Mississauga has issues drawing fans, too.

Exactly rite, watching the colts/Missy game there can't be 400 fans in attendance - no matter what they announce

 

[Whalers Fan]

I don't disagree with you that Mississauga suffers from attendance woes. My point was that 'Toronto no longer has a team' didn't quite make sense.

And as I said before, the Spitfires also rank behind those same same teams for fan and media attention. Thousands of Windsorites attend every Tiger and Red Wing game. It takes roughly 10 minutes to get from Windsor to Comerica Park. It probably takes more time to find a spot to park on game day than it does to cross the border. Transit Windsor has special event buses that go directly from Windsor to Comerica Park and they pack DOZENS of full buses. (Plus all the people who drive over).

There's probably more people from Windsor at Comerica Park than there are from Plymouth.

And yes, we attend UofM and MSU Football games as well, but not nearly to the same scale as Tigers and Red Wings games.

Anyway, my point is is that Plymouth is far from being the only 'small fish' in a big market.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on the mentality of the sports fans in this area. I've lived here for over 50 years, so I think I have a good handle on the sports fans on this side of the border. Neither the Whalers nor the OHL are even a blip on the radar for most people living over here. When I mention we have season tickets to the Whalers, most people do not even understand what level of hockey that is or know anything about the OHL. In Windsor, I'm sure it's a different story.

 

[krazy kanuck]

It takes roughly 10 minutes to get from Windsor to Comerica Park. It probably takes more time to find a spot to park on game day than it does to cross the border. Transit Windsor has special event buses that go directly from Windsor to Comerica Park and they pack DOZENS of full buses. (Plus all the people who drive over).

My brother lives in Windsor and tells me this as well. I've had Lions seasons tickets since 1997, and I have never, ever, had it only take 10 minutes. Opening day this year I decided to try the bus for the first time, and it was 1:45 to get back on the very first bus. I'm not saying it saying it can't happen, I've just never experienced a 10 minute drive in the dozens times I've crossed over.

 

[General Zodd]

Ottawa made up a huge chunk of attendance in the East for several years in the early-to-mid 2000's, but they're sinking now. Announced attendance of 1400 last night but there were no more than 500 people there.

67's never drew well at playoff games in Kanata, never drew well on weekdays, and it was a train wreck waiting to happen when they moved out there full time.

Attendance will improve when they move back to Bank St. but a lot of collateral damage, many season ticket holders will not be back

I think a lot of it has to do with the level of play in Junior hockey the last few years. Steadily on the decline IMO and has been for the last decade. You just don't see the big-name marquee players that you used to see in days gone by. Still a great development league but it's gotten to the point where the owners have overshot their maximum pricing level for tickets. There may be a few small center's where the prices are relatively affordable but bang for the buck, I'd now rather watch NHL!!

I think people in Ottawa are finding other ways to spend their money. The Senators are Kings in the Capital City and fans are getting rather discerning in their tastes.

However I do feel that junior fans in Ottawa are a bit lazy!! Sure the team is off to a rough start but should improve once they get going but they need support!! . Maybe get off your lazy butts and make the short drive to Kanata? The 67's drew 12,000 (ironically a figure no one will be able to beat this year due to arena size limitations) for their season opener but have more staff at the last few games than spectators. Disgraceful!!!

 

[Whalers Fan]

I think a lot of it has to do with the level of play in Junior hockey the last few years. Steadily on the decline IMO and has been for the last decade. You just don't see the big-name marquee players that you used to see in days gone by. Still a great development league but it's gotten to the point where the owners have overshot their maximum pricing level for tickets. There may be a few small center's where the prices are relatively affordable but bang for the buck, I'd now rather watch NHL!!

I think people in Ottawa are finding other ways to spend their money. The Senators are Kings in the Capital City and fans are getting rather discerning in their tastes.

However I do feel that junior fans in Ottawa are a bit lazy!! Sure the team is off to a rough start but should improve once they get going but they need support!! . Maybe get off your lazy butts and make the short drive to Kanata? The 67's drew 12,000 (ironically a figure no one will be able to beat this year due to arena size limitations) for their season opener but have more staff at the last few games than spectators. Disgraceful!!!

I know ticket prices are quite a bit higher with many of the Canadian franchises, but that would not be the reason for poor attendance here. My center ice seats cost me $12 each as part of a season ticket package, and we receive a pass for free VIP parking, too. Any unused ticket can be turned in for a ticket to any other game, so no tickets go wasted. For some games, individual seats in the end zone go for $5.

Compared with the outrageous prices the Red Wings charge for some games, you cannot get a better hockey watching bargain anywhere, IMO.

 

[mouse 29]

I know ticket prices are quite a bit higher with many of the Canadian franchises, but that would not be the reason for poor attendance here. My center ice seats cost me $12 each as part of a season ticket package, and we receive a pass for free VIP parking, too. Any unused ticket can be turned in for a ticket to any other game, so no tickets go wasted. For some games, individual seats in the end zone go for $5.

Compared with the outrageous prices the Red Wings charge for some games, you cannot get a better hockey watching bargain anywhere, IMO.

Speaking as a STH in Barrie, our tickets are pretty much in line with yours. I believe we pay in the $500 range per club seat tickets and gives us all the preseason games, all the regular season games and the first 2 playoff games. As a club seat holder we have acces to a parking pass (another $500.00 for 1 space) and a private lounge. My outlay as STH in Barrie is around $1,500.00. A pretty good value when you compare to the NHL. We just recently had an NHL exhibition game at the BMC and it cost me $400.00 for 4 tickets.

Anyway I suppose some people will find the ticket prices high in the 'o', but IMO I think they are pretty reasonable. However I do think the overall quality of play has been declining. I know we have been spoiled here in Barrie and a few other teams as well. However I do understand the comments regarding the level of play/compete in some of the franchises in relation to the attendance level.

 

[doogie24]

My brother lives in Windsor and tells me this as well. I've had Lions seasons tickets since 1997, and I have never, ever, had it only take 10 minutes. Opening day this year I decided to try the bus for the first time, and it was 1:45 to get back on the very first bus. I'm not saying it saying it can't happen, I've just never experienced a 10 minute drive in the dozens times I've crossed over.

I recall discussing this with you last year, and you mentioning that it's tough for you to get to the border very early from Barrie, which is understandable.

(this isn't directed at you, KK - just relaying what i've learned over the years) The tunnel bus will never be fast because of every person on the bus having to get on and off and personally interviewed by border agents. It's a terrible process which I hate, unless you are dead set on drinking and want an 8 dollar ride to and from the game. Drive over and spend the 8 bucks on parking and save yourself a good hour or even two hrs of waiting. (Keep in mind you also sit in Windsor waiting for the bus to fill up, and wait for it to fill up on the way back)

It all depends on when you cross in comparison to puckdrop/first pitch/kickoff.

These are completely rough numbers, but I have traveled to tons of games over the years and been very early, and very late.

ex: 7:00 game, downtown Detroit

5:00 - 10 minutes - 15 at most.
5:30 - 15/20
6:00 - 30 or so
6:30 - good luck - 45 to hour. (if its a weekend or a big game, maybe more)

This obviously varies, but I always try and be at the border at least 1.5 hours before the start of the game. Would rather kill time downtown than sit at the border.

 

[doogie24]

Other random thoughts on attendance

Sometimes I wonder what London could really hold if they wanted. There's nights when tickets are in such high demand they could add another 5000 no problem. But we have also seen early playoff rounds that don't sell out (despite what they say) with handfuls of empty seats in the upper deck. It looks like 9000 is right around the perfect number.

Windsor STH's would have a better handle on this, but one reason HAS to be the decline of the on ice product over the past few years. They moved into the beautiful FU center, saw one of the best junior hockey teams ever for 2 years, (yes I went there) which included great teams for a few more on each end of those two titles - and now they are a basement dweller that can't seem to reach their potential. That surely affects interest - people can find something better to do on a Thursday night if they want to.

The point about Plymouth and many area/Michigan residents not even knowing what level the Whalers play at is an interesting one that I think makes a lot of sense. This is the best development league in the world for the 16-20 age group, and Plymouth has consistently fielded one of the better teams in the league for 20 years. But its "Junior / Amateur" and i'll bet some still think its some sort of minor hockey, not really realizing what the caliber is.

I really want to see Sarnia break through and put together some good years at the top of the league - RBC is pretty accessible to many outside of Sarnia in Lambton county, gotta wonder if people would flock to the games if the on ice product was consistently better. Having top level stars like Stamkos, Galchenyuk and Yakupov helps, but not nearly as much as deep playoff runs for repeated years.

 

[ottawah]

Ottawa attendance had been in a slow decline for years despite the team remaining a top contender. 2005 had a record attendance of 9231 but then steadily dropped every year (one year had a miniscule gain) on route to a 30% drop in 2012 (6507) when they were still in the civic center, and that year they were a memorial cup contender.

So the drop is Ottawa is not simply due to the team becoming terrible and moving to a less than desired location. That certainly helped the trend along, but the trend is there for anyone to see.

Personally I think more and more hockey on TV, especially NHL hockey, is saturating everyone's appetite.

 

[etr102]

I guess we'll just have to disagree on the mentality of the sports fans in this area. I've lived here for over 50 years, so I think I have a good handle on the sports fans on this side of the border. Neither the Whalers nor the OHL are even a blip on the radar for most people living over here. When I mention we have season tickets to the Whalers, most people do not even understand what level of hockey that is or know anything about the OHL. In Windsor, I'm sure it's a different story.

I think your missing the point. I agree with you that the OHL/Whalers aren't a blip on the radar for most people in the metro Detroit area.

My point is, is that the Whalers aren't the only team that is a small fish in a big market.

You make it seem like since there's a river running between Detroit and Windsor that we are a bunch of rubes who watch junior hockey because we have no other option and that's not the case. Spitfire fans have all of the exact same options for entertainment.

I suppose the biggest difference is media coverage. I know that the OHL gets virtually 0 coverage in Detroit media. However Windsor's daily newspaper covers the Spitfires quite extensively (even though they are still second fiddle to the Red Wings, Tigers and Lions).

 

[StormSurge9]

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Guelph always draw well in attendance??

Guelph usually averages close to 4000 over the course of the season.

P.S. here is a good site I found that tracks attendance. You can view your team over the past couple seasons. http://www.hockeyattendance.com/teams/#

 

[mouse 29]

It would seem from what I am hearing that a perceived drop in attendance is in direct relation to the product on the ice. With the exception of a few areas where it is felt that the there is too much competition for every one's dollar.

So based on all the input, if the quality of the on ice product/talent has declined, would it be fair to say that this is the main reason that the attendance is down. Or perhaps it goes a little deeper into the policies and regulations thus creating a decline in the quality.

Would it be fair to say, that if the CHL/OHL as stated many times wants to remain as the premier development league for the NHL, should't we have the best players available. Whether NA or import!!

Perhaps the CHL should allow

1. no restrictions on imports
2. take a different approach to the game and stop trying to change the game of hockey. Don't get me wrong player safety is a major concern, but playing gate keeper for the game of Hockey and with some of their more controversial rule changes they may run the risk of loosing the distinction of being the main pipeline to the NHL.
After all I can still remember when every one thought the WHL would die against the NHL with its 6 teams.
3.Perhaps the CHL should focus more on rule changes to bring in talent and less on pissing contests with other leagues. (NCAA etc) or rule changes to keep talent out.
Perhaps a more open handed approach to work together with other leagues.

Anyway, based on what I have read I think this league needs to take a slightly different direction in terms of fan support, attendance, and the game in general. After all it is the fan that generates the support for this league, and as suggested by many in this thread the attendance is dropping overall. Speaking of course for the 'O' only, as I can't comment on the West or the Q.

 

[mouse 29]

Guelph usually averages close to 4000 over the course of the season.

P.S. here is a good site I found that tracks attendance. You can view your team over the past couple seasons. http://www.hockeyattendance.com/teams/#

Thank you SS9 great info. So in a nut shell since the 2005-2006 season the overall attendance in the OHL has dropped 10.5% and the playoffs have increased by only 1.5%.

What struck me was the steady decline since the 08-09 season. If that trend continues we will drop from an overall attendance of 68.6% in 12-13 to around 61.5% in 2017-2018.
All speculative but if this trend continues we will be in a situation similar to the NHL where the top teams are having to support the bottom teams.

Good post SS9

 

[SimonKnightsman]

You also have to consider the dates when looking at declines in attendance. A huge factor out of anyone's control is the economy from 2008 to 2012. In the 401 corridor many large centres seen record factory closings from Windsor to Cornwall and up thru Barrie, Owen Sound ect.....

This is why you have seen declines and I haven't even mentioned the US teams yet.

Junior Hockey tickets would be the first item taken from a families entertainment budget when one of the spouses has lost employment.

 

[mouse 29]

You also have to consider the dates when looking at declines in attendance. A huge factor out of anyone's control is the economy from 2008 to 2012. In the 401 corridor many large centres seen record factory closings from Windsor to Cornwall and up thru Barrie, Owen Sound ect.....

This is why you have seen declines and I haven't even mentioned the US teams yet.

Junior Hockey tickets would be the first item taken from a families entertainment budget when one of the spouses has lost employment.

Yes I agree many factors to consider, including demographics. But how do you explain an 8% rise in attendance in the 'Q' over the same period.

Would it have anything to do with the talent level especially the last 3 MEM cup championship teams or perhaps they are playing a different style of game. I seem to recall the suspension level in the 'O' last year was significantly higher, than that in the 'Q'. Or maybe they are playing a more entertaining brand of hockey??

 

[GBFP]

Barrie and Windsor attendance down you say - both fan bases burned by slimebag Branch and his affinity for London?

 

[youngblood10]

The games are not as exciting as they once were, fans don't make that emotional connection with a team like they once did. The play is very vanilla, I think the skill level and athletes are better than ever but 20 bucks or more per ticket to watch completive pond hockey is a hard sell if the team isn't a winner.

 

[JetsColts13]

I think the colts will be just fine. 3800+ tonight. Good crowd for this early.

 

[Whalers Fan]

The announced attendance in Plymouth last night was 3,206, which was bigger than expected.

 

[CharlieGirl]

The games are not as exciting as they once were, fans don't make that emotional connection with a team like they once did. The play is very vanilla, I think the skill level and athletes are better than ever but 20 bucks or more per ticket to watch completive pond hockey is a hard sell if the team isn't a winner.

I think that all depends on the your team. As a Rangers fan,I'm enjoying the heck out of the team so far this year. As far as exciting games, games at the beginning of the year are rarely exciting but can be fun to watch.

As far as emotional connection, I think that's a personal feeling and a league wide judgement can't be made.

I think the combination of the economy and the time of the year have the biggest impact on attendance, and it changes from year to year in some markets based on the quality of the team. Some markets, it doesn't matter if the team is among the top teams or the bottom teams.

 

[may know]

"I think that all depends on the your team." - CharlieGirl.

Yup.

A lot of you are overanalyzing attendance.

For those who have followed the league since the 70s and 80s the league has never been better. The players have gotten better and the quality of the teams have gotten better. As for the rules, the NHL will be micmicking the OHL rules sooner rather than later, so really in both cases it doesn't hold water.

If you look at the numbers of the league as provided by the link from StormSurge the numbers over the years have been pretty steady. http://www.hockeyattendance.com/teams/#

Keep in mind, that a number of new rinks were built in the OHL over the last 10-15 years which always accounts for a little bit of bump in attendance as the newness factor kicks in. The Q has benefited not from winning 3 Memorial Cups but a couple of new rinks opening up in the last 5 years in Boisbriand, Sherbrooke and Shawinigan. Also having a superstar like MacKinnon in a big market like Halifax helps. His arrival in Halifax, in a large arena, helped attendance spike up 25% and then 31% on top of that. They went from 5,331 to 8,686 in 2 years. With him gone, it's dropped 13% to 7518. Still pretty good numbers.

If you look at the OHL it comes down to three things.

1) Team on the ice, results
2) Ownership
3) Rink

The biggest drop in attendance in the league has been in Ottawa. Ottawa is a huge market and any drop there is felt across the league. When Hunt took over the team he put a lot of time and effort into marketing, since then not so much. Also doesn't help that the rink is going through renovations. So going from 8000 to 4000, it's going to have an affect on numbers.

But look across the league.
Barrie - numbers are pretty steady, though they dropped a bit when Howie Campbell took over. A lot of Barrie fans aren't big fans of Howie.
Belleville - Up and down with the results of the team, doesn't help there's talk of Belleville moving. Ask Bulls fans.
Erie - Like Belleville doesn't help there's always talk of Erie moving lately. Results on the ice have been of late too, which doesn't help. But with renovations done and the rink look good, plus having Connor McDavid will help.
Guelph - Pretty steady attendance that fluctuates with the team. Right up it's up because Guelph has one of the best teams in the league.
Kingston - Kingston fans hate Springer, but with the team being better on the ice, there's been a rise in attendance.
Kitchener - Been pretty steady since DeBoer took over, increased capacity helped last year. Down this year because the team is rebuilding.
London - Steady since the rink opened in 2002.
Mississauga - Actually pretty steady since the rink opened. Went up during the Memorial Cup year. Attendance is slightly up this year compared to last year.
Niagara - Pretty steady due to limited capacity. Will get a bump when they move to the new rink.
Oshawa - Gone down since the new rink opened and when John Tavares was there. Local economy also took a huge hit but still pretty steady.
Ottawa - Biggest dropper mainly due to ownership, team results of late, team playing in Kanata now. Ottawa fans will explain.
Owen Sound - Up and down with the team, last year was the best year in recent memory.
Peterborough - Another huge dropper. From 3400 the year they won the league in 2006 to just over 2200 now. Again, all due to the team not doing well over the last few years.
Plymouth - Pretty steady
Saginaw - Up and down with the team
Sarnia - Usually pretty steady, but attendance rests on the team's play. Lack of playoff success has always hurt.
Sault Ste. Marie - Has dropped since the new rink opened in 2006, attendance depends on the team, should see a slight rise this year.
Sudbury - Mark Burgess
Windsor - Another big dropper. Huge crowds when the new rink opened which corresponded to their Memorial Cup run year. But team hasn't been as good, complaints about ownership from some fans, game day changes, local economy being hit, attendance has gone down from 6200 to below 5000.

So there you have it. It's not about the stars, style of play or rules, it's about how the team does, how fans perceive ownership and the game day experience.

If London ever stunk, their crowds would be affected. A 5% drop in London has a bigger affect than a 10% raise in Owen Sound for example. Ottawa going from 8000 to 4000 has a huge affect on league numbers. Just like Halifax going from 4000 to 8000 has be affect.

I guarantee Quebec league numbers will be down this year because of the fact attendance at Quebec Remparts games is going to drop big, already down (-21% this year). Same thing in Halifax (-13% this year) and Saint John (-26.5% this year). Those are the three biggest rinks in the Q.

So I should add a 4th category - star power.

That's why as much as some fans complain, the CHL just wants to get the best players in the league. They don't care which teams get them as long as they get them.

 

[youngblood10]

I think that all depends on the your team. As a Rangers fan,I'm enjoying the heck out of the team so far this year. As far as exciting games, games at the beginning of the year are rarely exciting but can be fun to watch.

As far as emotional connection, I think that's a personal feeling and a league wide judgement can't be made.

I think the combination of the economy and the time of the year have the biggest impact on attendance, and it changes from year to year in some markets based on the quality of the team. Some markets, it doesn't matter if the team is among the top teams or the bottom teams.

I go to the games and have a good time also, my opinion expressed is what I hear from people who used to and are casual or oka bandwagoners. I love junior hockey, but I can certainly understand how those who no longer have the fire feel. My hope is someone will take into consideration this feedback as factors into the equation. The economy or economic formula doesn't really change, it's supply and demand, which creates price points.