Is Sidney Crosby on track to be (or already is) the 4th best forward ever?

[Midnight Judges]

MidnightJudges has to be one of the few people on Earth who genuinely believes a guy who finished top 10 in Selke (top 5 this year most likely) the past few years means he "sucks at defense".

When the media gives a guy sportsmanship and leadership award votes two Months after this, yeah, I start to take their opinions with a grain of salt.

 

[MadLuke]

No one is going to remember Crosby in thirty years for a bunch of 2nd 3rd place point finishes.

https://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/a-heros-funeral-for-maurice-richard

Sakic, Yzerman, Maurice Richard never won an Art-Ross, bunch of 2nd, 3rd place can be well remembered in someone legacy, why would people in 30 year's not bring up Crosby top 10 finish like they are doing today for Mikita/Hull/Beliveau.

Crosby biggest legacy claim will probably be this:
RS (750 games or more)
Crosby: 1.29
Malkin: 1.18
Ovechkin: 1.12
Kane: 1.04

Playoff (100 games or more)
Crosby: 1.13
Malkin: 1.04
Ovechkin: .98
Kane: .97

Hard to argue about that separation with that big of a sample of games against player in their very prime. How does the above and this:
Crosby : 1,1,2,2,3,3,3,3,5,6,10
Hull : 1,1,1,2,2,2,4,5,6,7,9
Ovechkin : 1,2,2,3,3,4,7,8

Not good claim for Crosby building a comparable has of now career to Hull ? What is missing ? What is your argument for Hull first 14 season above Crosby first 14 season ?

 

[george14]

When the media gives a guy sportsmanship and leadership award votes two Months after this, yeah, I start to take their opinions with a grain of salt.

That's a garbage argument. So we need to invalidate the media?

How about the players who voted Crosby the best player in the league for how many straight years? Them too?

How about the fans and polls on here? They don't matter

So that's it, I guess it's only the opinion of MidnightJudges that matters.

 

[Snowpants]

https://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/a-heros-funeral-for-maurice-richard

Sakic, Yzerman, Maurice Richard never won an Art-Ross, bunch of 2nd, 3rd place can be well remembered in someone legacy, why would people in 30 year's not bring up Crosby top 10 finish like they are doing today for Mikita/Hull/Beliveau.

Sakic and Yzerman are not top ten players of all time probably not even 20. They are instead remembered for similar reasons to Crosby ("great leaders" "clutch" "big moments"). No one is comparing them to the top four of all time though for good reason

Richard is also not remembered for that at least among most fans. Most would probably not even know that about him. He IS (rightly!) remembered as a big time scorer of his era again probably the best. He also has the 8 Cups and was the top scorer in the same number of years playoffs as he was regular season (5).

Crosby biggest legacy claim will probably be this:
RS (750 games or more)
Crosby: 1.29
Malkin: 1.18
Ovechkin: 1.12
Kane: 1.04

Playoff (100 games or more)
Crosby: 1.13
Malkin: 1.04
Ovechkin: .98
Kane: .97

I think again you are looking for something that is not there or at least not really considered a mark of greatness to most people. I do not care he was the highest PPG player of the era for one because he has been hurt so often. That helps your PPG of course. Playoffs I touched on he is and will be known forever as "clutch".

Hard to argue about that separation with that big of a sample of games against player in their very prime. How does the above and this:
Crosby : 1,1,2,2,3,3,3,3,5,6,10
Hull : 1,1,1,2,2,2,4,5,6,7,9
Ovechkin : 1,2,2,3,3,4,7,8

Not good claim for Crosby building a comparable has of now career to Hull ? What is missing ? What is your argument for Hull first 14 season above Crosby first 14 season ?

If you really do not know what Hull did Crosby did not in their first 14 season then I suggest you research it. Bobby Hull Stats | Hockey-Reference.com lots of info there for you. Look in particular at the # of times he led the league in goals. Then compare to Crosby. Hope that is helpful.

 

[MadLuke]

Sakic and Yzerman are not top ten players of all time probably not even 20

But will still be remembered in 10 year's.

If you really do not know what Hull did Crosby did not in their first 14 season then I suggest you research it. Bobby Hull Stats | Hockey-Reference.com lots of info there for you. Look in particular at the # of times he led the league in goals. Then compare to Crosby. Hope that is helpful.

Not sure why goals would be that important of a metric. Hejduk leaded the league in goal more often than Peter Forsberg, did you really thought I didn't knew about Bobby Hull goal scoring resume ? You do not have to talk to me has if I was that much of a moron (I do write like one too)

I think again you are looking for something that is not there or at least not really considered a mark of greatness to most people.

Giant sample size ppg domination over the field is considered offensive greatness to a lot of people, I must imagine it is the best metric for most serious analysis, one I tend to see the most.

I do not care he was the highest PPG player of the era for one because he has been hurt so often. That helps your PPG of course

If your are hurt a lot in your very peak and not otherwise I am not so sure that is the case, cutting your career short obviously help your ppg, missing time during your peak year's I am not sure it help your career ppg in a of course ways. That would be true if we would have really not played enough game to make the sample size relevant, but Crosby played 1107 nhl game during that time. Marleau the super iron man with the most game of the era played 1238 game.

To give an idea from 2005-2006 to today Crosby is #7 in ice time among forward in regular season, #1 in playoff. #33 in games played in RS, #2 in playoff. Very few forward played more NHL hockey than him during is career

 

[GreatGonzo]

Again though we fall back on how do we define defense. If it's keeping the puck out of your own net, then how does possession not help with that?

Like there are players in the league who have better sticks in the d-zone than Crosby, but are probably much worse at keeping the puck than him. Which is more valuable when it comes to keeping the puck out of your net?

That’s true, but then at that point it becomes confusing. What defines defense? A lot of people are saying possession....yet the best possession players of all time aren’t normally seen as defensive studs. Is it doing the little things in your own zone? Sure. Either way it’s a mix bag.

I just don’t see a correlation between having the puck and keeping the other team from scoring. Sure that’s a true statement, but it’s still very fuzzy to call that “defense.” Crosby gets a lot of notice for his “defense” because he is such a highly recognized offensive player. At this point he can make the most average defensive plays or just be able to make a good face off win or poke check in his own zone, and many will drool and holler about how “Selke caliber” he is.

 

[Pancakes]

That’s true, but then at that point it becomes confusing. What defines defense? A lot of people are saying possession....yet the best possession players of all time aren’t normally seen as defensive studs. Is it doing the little things in your own zone? Sure. Either way it’s a mix bag.

I just don’t see a correlation between having the puck and keeping the other team from scoring. Sure that’s a true statement, but it’s still very fuzzy to call that “defense.” Crosby gets a lot of notice for his “defense” because he is such a highly recognized offensive player. At this point he can make the most average defensive plays or just be able to make a good face off win or poke check in his own zone, and many will drool and holler about how “Selke caliber” he is.

There's no perfect way to quantify it that I know of. Some would say possession. Some would say it's the harder to quantify things like positional awareness and battle level. Still others might say it's a combination of all of those things.

So in the end it comes down to opinions I guess. And Crosby is definitely benefiting from the narrative every star player gets which is that once they hit their 30's the media starts talking about what good defensive players they are now. As a Pens fan I can say from having watched most of his career that he is better defensively now than he has ever been, but I also think the media would tout that whether or not it's true. They love the Steve Yzerman narrative of a star player whose numbers go down but who now "knows how to win/play d/etc".

 

[Midnight Judges]

That's a garbage argument. So we need to invalidate the media?

Of course it's not a garbage argument.

Sidney Crosby deliberately slashed a guy in the nuts, lied about it to the media (laughably claiming it was an accident), and within two Months he received several votes for the NHL's "sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct" award. He also slashed off Methot's finger tip prior to the votes.

That is ridiculous.

I don't think you need to completely invalidate the media, but you certainly must acknowledge that a massive pro-Crosby bias exists, especially in the Canadian media. It's the same media that claimed Toews was a top 100 player and Malkin is not (coincidence that Malkin is Russian? I think not). The same media that pumped Carey Price into that ridiculous contract.

BTW it's not completely the media's fault. They're just trying to maximize revenue by selling newspapers and getting clicks. Clearly it's what some readers *ahem* want.

 

[teravaineSAROS]

It’s very close... of the top of my head I’d take Jagr and Hull over him, maybe a couple other guys. Like I said it’s close, but Jagr and Hull really separate themselves when you compare individual trophies to Crosby.

Hull? no way

Jagr possibly

 

[george14]

Of course it's not a garbage argument.

Sidney Crosby deliberately slashed a guy in the nuts, lied about it to the media (laughably claiming it was an accident), and within two Months he received several votes for the NHL's "sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct" award. He also slashed off Methot's finger tip prior to the votes.

That is ridiculous.

I don't think you need to completely invalidate the media, but you certainly must acknowledge that a massive pro-Crosby bias exists, especially in the Canadian media. It's the same media that claimed Toews was a top 100 player and Malkin is not (coincidence that Malkin is Russian? I think not). The same media that pumped Carey Price into that ridiculous contract.

BTW it's not completely the media's fault. They're just trying to maximize revenue by selling newspapers and getting clicks. Clearly it's what some readers *ahem* want.

This is just you picking and choosing what arguments you see fit.

Let's say the media is biased, so what now? Crosby still cannot "suck" as a defensive player. The man finished top 10 in Selke and like I said, will finish top 5 this year. You are going that far to say he is a terrible defensive player but miraculously finishes that high? You can't even say he is average?

I've never understood this anti-Russian propaganda. Yeah, they made a mistake. Who cares? Malkin has won an MVP. So has Ovi. So have other Russians. In fact, many would argue Ovechkin won an MVP over Crosby when he shouldn't have. Stop making these dumb arguments.

 

[Midnight Judges]

In fact, many would argue Ovechkin won an MVP over Crosby when he shouldn't have.

Ovechkin had more than twice as many goals as Crosby.

Awarding the 2013 Hart to Crosby would have been an even bigger disaster than Crosby's 2016 Conn Smythe.

 

[george14]

Ovechkin had more than twice as many goals as Crosby.

Awarding the 2013 Hart to Crosby would have been an even bigger disaster than Crosby's 2016 Conn Smythe.

And Crosby had the same offensive production in 12 fewer games.

It's crazy how everything positive for Crosby is a negative for you. No matter what, you will be contrarian and say he shouldn't have won.

Considering you've an Ovi fan, I can see how you don't value anything aside from scoring goals. That makes sense. OR how Cups now matter since he won.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Let's say the media is biased, so what now? Crosby still cannot "suck" as a defensive player. The man finished top 10 in Selke and like I said, will finish top 5 this year. You are going that far to say he is a terrible defensive player but miraculously finishes that high? You can't even say he is average?

I think the average player gets shafted when it comes to crediting their defense. Guys like Hagelin, Beagle, Bonino etc. They actually PK and start primarily in their own zone. They're tasked with doing the heavy lifting on defense while guys like Crosby play extended minutes on the powerplay, barely PK, and start in the offensive zone a majority of the time - and then get all the glory for being the best defensive players too?

That's BS.

If it were up to me the Selke would be awarded to players who are actually deployed in a defensive role - the ones who actually demonstrate the most skill in the defensive component of the game. The media wouldn't find my picks to be sexy though, because they aren't all big names.

 

[Midnight Judges]

And Crosby had the same offensive production in 12 fewer games.

No he didn't.

He had assists whereas Ovechkin had goals.

Goals are substantially more valuable and productive than primary assists and about 10x more valuable than secondary assists (although I think Sid didn't have that many secondaries that season).

 

[Midnight Judges]

It's crazy how everything positive for Crosby is a negative for you. No matter what, you will be contrarian and say he shouldn't have won.

I have no problem with people saying nice things about Sid so long as they are true:

He's a monster at possession. He's an excellent passer. He's a great goal scorer. Excellent hockey IQ. Generational vision. That's all fair game.

Sid is not a great sportsman or leader. He is a nut slasher, a whiner, and he's definitely had a bad mental game at times.

Sid is not great at defense. He doesn't shut down players, he doesn't PK much, he doesn't start in his own zone much. He's not usually the first forward back. He is often the deepest forward in the offensive zone. He is often the last forward back.

 

[orby]

Goals are substantially more valuable and productive than primary assists and about 10x more valuable than secondary assists (although I think Sid didn't have that many secondaries that season).

The "secondary assists" argument about Crosby has always been spurious, not just this season. He has never had a disproportionate amount of secondary assists compared to goals and primary assists at any point in his career. In fact, IIRC, someone on here calculated career PPG for a bunch of top players without factoring in secondary assists and Crosby was still on top of the league.

 

[pi314]

I think the average player gets shafted when it comes to crediting their defense. Guys like Hagelin, Beagle, Bonino etc. They actually PK and start primarily in their own zone. They're tasked with doing the heavy lifting on defense while guys like Crosby play extended minutes on the powerplay, barely PK, and start in the offensive zone a majority of the time - and then get all the glory for being the best defensive players too?

That's BS.

If it were up to me the Selke would be awarded to players who are actually deployed in a defensive role - the ones who actually demonstrate the most skill in the defensive component of the game. The media wouldn't find my picks to be sexy though, because they aren't all big names.

Well then we can all be grateful that it's not up to you.

Leave those decisions to people who honestly know something about the game.

 

[orby]

Also if goals are more valuable than assists, why are they both worth a point? The only situation in which goal total vs assist total even matters is in the event of avoiding an Art Ross tie. You can argue as much as you want about the relative difficulty of scoring goals versus assists, but ultimately a player who scored 1 goal and 80 assists still outproduced a player that scored 40 goals and 40 assists.

 

[wetcoast]

Jagr, Esposito, Messier

I can see a case for Jagr.

Messier just doesn't have the regular season resume to be a too 4 or heck even a too 10 forward of all time.

Esposito just doesn't even come close as he was very ordinary outside of the Orr years.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Hull? no way

Jagr possibly

Esposito is still above him

2x Hart
5x Ross
6x Rocket
6x AS-1
2x AS-2
717-873-1520
1st to score 60g, 70g and 150p in a season
point finishes: 1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-7-9
goal finishes: 1-1-1-1-1-1-2-4-8
assist finishes: 1-1-1-2-2-2-2-5-6
137 in 130 in the playoffs, 3x led in playoff scoring

 

[wetcoast]

There is no consensus at all, but the usual name contending are Hull, Beliveau, Richard, Morenz in that order, with Crosby, Jagr, Ovechkin, Lafleur, Mikita, Esposito type not too far.

I guess some more all around game could have Clarke/Trottier higher than some of those and many will have some soviet era forward also in that spot.

Lots of those players mentioned have done less than Crosby who is still playing and therefore can't realistically be in the conversation.

Some have shorter primes, others have lesser playoff resumes and all but one had much less impactful jumpstarted to their careers.

These differences are what make Crosby and his case stand out here.

 

[daver]

If you really do not know what Hull did Crosby did not in their first 14 season then I suggest you research it. Bobby Hull Stats | Hockey-Reference.com lots of info there for you. Look in particular at the # of times he led the league in goals. Then compare to Crosby. Hope that is helpful.

So when Art Ross finishes aren't in your favor, you switch to the "Goals are everything" argument.

Crosby has a resume full of trophies and awards and team success that rivals any other #4 forwards. That is inarguble.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The "secondary assists" argument about Crosby has always been spurious, not just this season. He has never had a disproportionate amount of secondary assists compared to goals and primary assists at any point in his career.

That is false. There have been seasons where Sid had a huge amount of secondary assists (like 2014 and 2007).

Secondary assists are wildly inconsistent, because they are arbitrary.

For example, Sid had 34 in 2014, and 17 in 2016. This wild variance is not remotely indicative of a change in Sid's playmaking abilities.

But this is all beside the point.

Ovechkin's points and Sid's points are not directly comparable because 30% of Sid's points are secondary assists whereas it's more like 20% for Ovechkin.

Also, the NHL doesn't even award secondary assists evenly across the NHL:

Some NHL Stars Get More Assists At Home Than They Deserve

 

[george14]

That is false. There have been seasons where Sid had a huge amount of secondary assists (like 2014 and 2007).

Secondary assists are wildly inconsistent, because they are arbitrary.

For example, Sid had 34 in 2014, and 17 in 2016. This wild variance is not remotely indicative of a change in Sid's playmaking abilities.

But this is all beside the point.

Ovechkin's points and Sid's points are not directly comparable because 30% of Sid's points are secondary assists whereas it's more like 20% for Ovechkin.

Also, the NHL doesn't even award secondary assists evenly across the NHL:

Some NHL Stars Get More Assists At Home Than They Deserve

I don't think you are even sure what you are arguing...

 

[tenken00]

Also if goals are more valuable than assists, why are they both worth a point? The only situation in which goal total vs assist total even matters is in the event of avoiding an Art Ross tie. You can argue as much as you want about the relative difficulty of scoring goals versus assists, but ultimately a player who scored 1 goal and 80 assists still outproduced a player that scored 40 goals and 40 assists.

You can Goal without Assist. But can you Assist without Goal? Which one is dependent on the other?