Is Sidney Crosby on track to be (or already is) the 4th best forward ever?

[Midnight Judges]

This false narrative that Crosby doesn't play defense is just flat out wrong.

Crosby's offensive zone starts were higher than Alexander Ovechkin's this season.

Crosby was 360th in the NHL in penalty kill time on ice.

The Pens tried to rely on Crosby for late game defense, and they gave away two games late in the season as a direct result to Crosby sucking at defense.

This narrative that Crosby is great at defense has always been a farce that was concocted specifically to compensate for his offense falling off.

Bergeron, he is not even close.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Crosby's offensive zone starts were higher than Alexander Ovechkin's this season.

Crosby was 360th in the NHL in penalty kill time on ice.

The Pens tried to rely on Crosby for late game defense, and they gave away two games late in the season as a direct result to Crosby sucking at defense.

This narrative that Crosby is great at defense has always been a farce that was concocted specifically to compensate for his offense falling off.

Bergeron, he is not even close.

yup.

the Crosby defense tire pumping is just what the Crosby Fan Club has switched to now that his MVP days are over. This is the new "look how great he is you guys" thing they'll trumpet.

"He isnt declining, he's just concentrating on being a great 2 way player now"

 

[Pancakes]

Crosby's offensive zone starts were higher than Alexander Ovechkin's this season.

Crosby was 360th in the NHL in penalty kill time on ice.

The Pens tried to rely on Crosby for late game defense, and they gave away two games late in the season as a direct result to Crosby sucking at defense.

This narrative that Crosby is great at defense has always been a farce that was concocted specifically to compensate for his offense falling off.

Bergeron, he is not even close.

He's good at defense by virtue of being one of the best possession players in the league. Of players who played at least 500 minutes this season Crosby ranked 5th in Relative Corsi. Only Simon, Stone, Mantha, and Larkin were higher and many consider Stone to be the best two-way winger in the game today.

Ovechkin's Corsi rel was actually negative meaning the Caps do better at possessing the puck when he is off the ice than on it.

 

[Midnight Judges]

He's good at defense by virtue of being one of the best possession players in the league. Of players who played at least 500 minutes this season Crosby ranked 5th in Relative Corsi. Only Simon, Stone, Mantha, and Larkin were higher and many consider Stone to be the best two-way winger in the game today.

Crosby is a great possession player. No doubt.

But possession is not defense.

Or perhaps you think Jagr was an amazing defensive player. I suspect the possession stats from his prime would have been pretty ridiculous.

Ovechkin's Corsi rel was actually negative meaning the Caps do better at possessing the puck when he is off the ice than on it.

The Caps were 24th in Corsi. Then they won the Stanley Cup with Ovechkin as their best player.

Ovechkin is also killing it in the playoffs this season - 7 primary points in 5 games.

Simon? Mantha? Real gamebreakers there. Could it be that this stat is not perfectly indicative?

 

[Pancakes]

Crosby is a great possession player. No doubt.

But possession is not defense.

Or perhaps you think Jagr was an amazing defensive player. I suspect the possession stats from his prime would have been pretty ridiculous.



The Caps were 24th in Corsi. Then they won the Stanley Cup with Ovechkin as their best player.

Ovechkin is also killing it in the playoffs this season - 7 primary points in 5 games.

Simon? Mantha? Real gamebreakers there. Could it be that this stat is not perfectly indicative?

Possession is defense. The other team can't score if you have the puck all the time. People laud Bergeron as a great defensive player in part because of how well he controls shot attempts when on the ice. What better way to measure defensive ability do you have in mind? Goals for percentage? Crosby ranks near the top there. That's goals + goals against scored by a team. Only Terevainen and Copp are higher than Crosby there, and Crosby plays way more minutes.

Let me know what statistical measures you have in mind for how to judge defensive ability because all you've cited so far is two games where Crosby played badly (I could find two such from any player in the league) and you also cited killing penalties which Crosby doesn't do a lot of not because he can't but because the Penguins need to preserve his energy for the large number of powerplay and 5v5 minutes he gets.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I'm not forgetting about Alex at all. He's another all-time great but Sid is just simply better, comfortably but not by alot.

You wanna throw the goals argument out there, if Crosby had Ovechkin's GP, he'd have like 150-200 more points than him.

Playing the games matters. Being physically sound enough to not only survive, but excel matters.

Goal scoring is the most important stat in hockey. Can’t win without goals. You can without assists.

I respect the talent that is Crosby, and I’d say he’s arguably the best forward of his generation and certainly one of the bests of all-time overall. Ovechkin is also those things AND will arguably be the greatest goal scorer in NHL history, certainly 2nd at worst if he’s stay on course and healthy.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Possession is defense. The other team can't score if you have the puck all the time. People laud Bergeron as a great defensive player in part because of how well he controls shot attempts when on the ice. What better way to measure defensive ability do you have in mind? Goals for percentage? Crosby ranks near the top there. That's goals + goals against scored by a team. Only Terevainen and Copp are higher than Crosby there, and Crosby plays way more minutes.

Let me know what statistical measures you have in mind for how to judge defensive ability because all you've cited so far is two games where Crosby played badly (I could find two such from any player in the league) and you also cited killing penalties which Crosby doesn't do a lot of not because he can't but because the Penguins need to preserve his energy for the large number of powerplay and 5v5 minutes he gets.

I don't think there is a single indicative defensive metric out there for individual players - particularly forwards. They all have major flaws, similar to plus minus.

People laud Bergeron because he can (and has) shut down an elite offensive player for a playoff series. Crosby has never done that, nor does he have those types of skills.

 

[Yackiberg8]

1) Mario is better because of what he did when healthy/playing more than half the season. He outproduced and won more awards than both combined despite missing a ton of games. Jagr played 20 something years and still ended up with 1 less scoring title.

2) What I was getting at was the 2011 and 2012 seasons Crosby Stans like to bring up all the time. I don't give a crap if he was on pace to win the Art Ross. he didn't and played 1/2 as well as 1/4 of the season. I don't care if hes 6th all time in APG or whatever, the fact is he isn't 6th all time in assists and isn't anywhere close to it.

3) Not really, considering in the time they played while healthy they racked up numerous awards and points. What Orr did in 10 years for example, no other defensemen has been able to. Lemieux likewise was able to do plenty of damage in his healthy years.

4) Kent Nilsson is 10th all time in PPG. is he really a top 10 forward of all time? Or anywhere close to it? LaFontaine is 15th, great player but definitely not in the top 15 of all time. Same with Dale Hawerchuk who is 12th all time - HHOF player but 100% not a top 15/20 forward of all time.

1) Crosby has a laundry list of awards from his healthy seasons.
2) He is 31 years old. We'll see where he finishes after his career is over. Although finishing top 5 in points isn't the end-all be-all of being a top 5 player. (See Ron Francis)
3) Again, Crosby has a big list of achievements.
4) You need a little context in your thoughts. Crosby is 6th in PPG behind either the 3 of the top 4 players ever or Bossy (great player in 80s, played in only his peak) or Dionne (amazing player from 80s). Kent Nilsson played 500 games in the 80s, nice comparison. You can pick out players from the all-time points list as well. Mark Recchi at 12, Joe Thornton at 14 do you think they were top 15 all-time? Do you think Ron Francis was the 5th best all-time? Well Francis is 5th in points so your rationale says yes. Again, context.

 

[Pancakes]

I don't think there is a single indicative defensive metric out there for individual players - particularly forwards. They all have major flaws, similar to plus minus.

People laud Bergeron because he can (and has) shut down an elite offensive player for a playoff series. Crosby has never done that, nor does he have those types of skills.

Never done it? I doubt that. In 2009, he was matched up primarily against Zetterberg iirc. Zetterberg had one even strength goal, and two even strength assists over 7 games. And I'd have to go back and look at each of those individual scoring plays, but Crosby might not have even been on the ice for them. In 2016, the only elite Sharks forward that had a good series was Couture, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't matched up against Crosby.

Just last year Giroux did absolutely nothing against the Pens. I can't remember if the Flyers put Giroux or Couturier on Crosby though.

These are just three series off the top of my head I looked at. If I really wanted to go deeper with it, I'm sure I could find other elite forwards Crosby did well against.

In any case, there have definitely been elite forwards that Crosby has played effectively against. It would be pretty hard to have had the playoff success the Pens have had if Crosby was unable to matchup against elite forwards.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Never done it? I doubt that. In 2009, he was matched up primarily against Zetterberg iirc. Zetterberg had one even strength goal, and two even strength assists over 7 games. And I'd have to go back and look at each of those individual scoring plays, but Crosby might not have even been on the ice for them. In 2016, the only elite Sharks forward that had a good series was Couture, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't matched up against Crosby.

Just last year Giroux did absolutely nothing against the Pens. I can't remember if the Flyers put Giroux or Couturier on Crosby though.

These are just three series off the top of my head I looked at. If I really wanted to go deeper with it, I'm sure I could find other elite forwards Crosby did well against.

In any case, there have definitely been elite forwards that Crosby has played effectively against. It would be pretty hard to have had the playoff success the Pens have had if Crosby was unable to matchup against elite forwards.

Crosby didn’t shut down anyone in the 2009 finals, what agenda are you trying to twist around? Zetterberg had 6 points in 7 games that series and was a +3. Crosby had 3 points in 7 games and was a -3, including not producing at all for a majority of the series. So what’s the story? Crosby “shut down” Zetterberg while being completely useless himself?.....

2016? Crosby had 2 assists and was a negative player going into game 6. This idea that he shut down Anyone on the sharks is ridiculous. He finished the series with 4 assists and 0 goals. Thornton finished with 3 assists......not seeing the “shut down” factor your arguing.

Just because Crosby feasted on a weaker first round opponent many times doesn’t mean he shut down anyone.

Crosby isn’t a shut down center and never has been. All your examples are just you attempting to push this idea that he actually show cased great “defense”, all while being unimpressive himself.

 

[Pancakes]

Crosby didn’t shut down anyone in the 2009 finals, what agenda are you trying to twist around? Zetterberg had 6 points in 7 games that series and was a +3. Crosby had 3 points in 7 games and was a -3, including not producing at all for a majority of the series. So what’s the story? Crosby “shut down” Zetterberg while being completely useless himself?.....

2016? Crosby had 2 assists and was a negative player going into game 6. This idea that he shut down Anyone on the sharks is ridiculous. He finished the series with 4 assists and 0 goals. Thornton finished with 3 assists......not seeing the “shut down” factor your arguing.

Just because Crosby feasted on a weaker first round opponent many times doesn’t mean he shut down anyone.

Crosby isn’t a shut down center and never has been. All your examples are just you attempting to push this idea that he actually show cased great “defense”, all while being unimpressive himself.

6 points 7 games but that includes the powerplay. As I noted above, Zetterberg only had three even strength points that series. Zetterberg did outplay him, though Zetterberg also had Nick Lidstrom with him at all times. But still, it's not like Zetterberg did much 5v5 that series either, so...I don't remember who Crosby played against vs San Jose so I can't comment too much on that one. But no elite forward on SJ except Couture had a good series iirc.

But anyways MJ's point was Crosby has "never" shut down an elite forward which is demonstrably untrue given what Giroux did last year. And I could find many other examples if I wanted to.

If your argument is he's never shut down an elite forward on a stanley cup final team, that's a different kettle of fish. And probably also not true. Though I guess it depends on what your definition of shut down is. Zetterberg didn't do much in 09 offensively outside of the PP, and seeing how Crosby doesn't pk, that's not on him.

 

[Son Goku]

Actually don't, it's extremely embarrassing and tiresome.

This false narrative that Crosby doesn't play defense is just flat out wrong.

It's all he has left at this point.

 

[GreatGonzo]

6 points 7 games but that includes the powerplay. As I noted above, Zetterberg only had three even strength points that series. Zetterberg did outplay him, though Zetterberg also had Nick Lidstrom with him at all times. But still, it's not like Zetterberg did much 5v5 that series either, so...I don't remember who Crosby played against vs San Jose so I can't comment too much on that one. But no elite forward on SJ except Couture had a good series iirc.

But anyways MJ's point was Crosby has "never" shut down an elite forward which is demonstrably untrue given what Giroux did last year. And I could find many other examples if I wanted to.

If your argument is he's never shut down an elite forward on a stanley cup final team, that's a different kettle of fish. And probably also not true. Though I guess it depends on what your definition of shut down is. Zetterberg didn't do much in 09 offensively outside of the PP, and seeing how Crosby doesn't pk, that's not on him.

Crosby had little to nothing to do with Zetterbergs little ES production. Weird how you say his teammates had more of an impact on Crosby’s play that series while Crosby “shut down” Zetterbergs. Here’s a hint.....you don’t out play a player AND get shut down at the same time, defeats the purpose wouldn’t you say?....

Again, Crosby didn’t have a good series either. You can’t give credit to Crosby for shutting down players only to totally the fact that he, himself was contained and kept off the scoreboard. How is that a victory for Crosby?

I don’t see how Crosby(and others), feeding off of a weak defense and goaltending as shutting down anyone. But he did out play him that’s for sure.

My point is Crosby’s defense, especially his “shut down” abilities are being greatly over exaggerated.

 

[Pancakes]

Crosby had little to nothing to do with Zetterbergs little ES production. Weird how you say his teammates had more of an impact on Crosby’s play that series while Crosby “shut down” Zetterbergs. Here’s a hint.....you don’t out play a player AND get shut down at the same time, defeats the purpose wouldn’t you say?....

Again, Crosby didn’t have a good series either. You can’t give credit to Crosby for shutting down players only to totally the fact that he, himself was contained and kept off the scoreboard. How is that a victory for Crosby?

I don’t see how Crosby(and others), feeding off of a weak defense and goaltending as shutting down anyone. But he did out play him that’s for sure.

My point is Crosby’s defense, especially his “shut down” abilities are being greatly over exaggerated.

It's not a victory. Crosby got outplayed by Zetterberg. But I'm pointing out that Zetterberg didn't exactly light it up either.

Crosby is a good defensive player by virtue of his possession abilities. Is he the top? No, I don't think so. But he's very good.

 

[GreatGonzo]

It's not a victory. Crosby got outplayed by Zetterberg. But I'm pointing out that Zetterberg didn't exactly light it up either.

Crosby is a good defensive player by virtue of his possession abilities. Is he the top? No, I don't think so. But he's very good.

That’s not shutting down though. Maybe let’s drop that from anything talking about Crosby.

Never said he wasn’t good, his overall game in his own end is simply becoming bigger than his actual abilities. There are a lot of great possession players in the league, if possession was an actual correlation to defense, Gretzky would be considered the greatest two way forward of all time.

 

[Pancakes]

That’s not shutting down though. Maybe let’s drop that from anything talking about Crosby.

Never said he wasn’t good, his overall game in his own end is simply becoming bigger than his actual abilities. There are a lot of great possession players in the league, if possession was an actual correlation to defense, Gretzky would be considered the greatest two way forward of all time.

Again though we fall back on how do we define defense. If it's keeping the puck out of your own net, then how does possession not help with that?

Like there are players in the league who have better sticks in the d-zone than Crosby, but are probably much worse at keeping the puck than him. Which is more valuable when it comes to keeping the puck out of your net?

 

[MadLuke]

The fact the original post do not mention Bobby Hull (one of the most mainstream candidate for that title) didn't bold well to not have it turn into some Crosby vs Ovechkin affair.

It will be a hard debate because it depend how much peek, prime, career are weighted and that change from person to person and there is no undeniable number #4 forward unlike the top 3.

During Hull nhl career:
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...r=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,assists
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...r=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,assists

He outscored is competition both in regular season and the playoff quite well, 604 goal to 463 for the closest and 1153 above an aging Gordie Howe at 1060. 129 points to Beliveau 122.

The point finish (Crosby still 2 season to play)
Hull : 1,1,1,2,2,2,4,5,6,7,9
Crosby: 1,1,2,2,3,3,3,3,5,6,10

With 3x Ross, 2x Hart, 7 Rocket would trophy existed, great career in the WHA after the NHL, not impossible for Crosby to reach him if he age like a Sakic/Jagr/Yzerman/Bourque type of aging well player, but he is still not there yet imo, even if he had the career start to make it possible (specially if he would have played more during is peak) and is play rely a lot of is strength and stamina, you can keep strength quite well but will see, making league top 10 is already a challenge for him by now.

 

[jbobell98]

Crosby's offensive zone starts were higher than Alexander Ovechkin's this season.

Crosby was 360th in the NHL in penalty kill time on ice.

The Pens tried to rely on Crosby for late game defense, and they gave away two games late in the season as a direct result to Crosby sucking at defense.

This narrative that Crosby is great at defense has always been a farce that was concocted specifically to compensate for his offense falling off.

Bergeron, he is not even close.

lmao congrats on using 2 games to attempt and prove a point lmaoooo. Offensive zone starts arent a measure of defence but how much your team trusts to to produce offence. If you don't watch the games you have no opinion and you're proving this right with your braindead takes.

 

[george14]

Crosby's offensive zone starts were higher than Alexander Ovechkin's this season.

Crosby was 360th in the NHL in penalty kill time on ice.

The Pens tried to rely on Crosby for late game defense, and they gave away two games late in the season as a direct result to Crosby sucking at defense.

This narrative that Crosby is great at defense has always been a farce that was concocted specifically to compensate for his offense falling off.

Bergeron, he is not even close.

MidnightJudges has to be one of the few people on Earth who genuinely believes a guy who finished top 10 in Selke (top 5 this year most likely) the past few years means he "sucks at defense".

You've reached a new low.

 

[Snowpants]

The fact the original post do not mention Bobby Hull (one of the most mainstream candidate for that title) didn't bold well to not have it turn into some Crosby vs Ovechkin affair.

It will be a hard debate because it depend how much peek, prime, career are weighted and that change from person to person and there is no undeniable number #4 forward unlike the top 3.

During Hull nhl career:
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...r=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,assists
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...r=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,assists

He outscored is competition both in regular season and the playoff quite well, 604 goal to 463 for the closest and 1153 above an aging Gordie Howe at 1060. 129 points to Beliveau 122.

The point finish (Crosby still 2 season to play)
Hull : 1,1,1,2,2,2,4,5,6,7,9
Crosby: 1,1,2,2,3,3,3,3,5,6,10

With 3x Ross, 2x Hart, 7 Rocket would trophy existed, great career in the WHA after the NHL, not impossible for Crosby to reach him if he age like a Sakic/Jagr/Yzerman/Bourque type of aging well player, but he is still not there yet imo, even if he had the career start to make it possible (specially if he would have played more during is peak) and is play rely a lot of is strength and stamina, you can keep strength quite well but will see, making league top 10 is already a challenge for him by now.

Ovechkin has more claim to 4th best than Crosby for this reason imo. He is similar to the Golden Jet in nearly everyway...

7x "Richard" for Hull 8x for Ovi
3x Art Ross for Hull 1x for Ovi
2x Hart for Hull 3x for Ovi

Plus 1 Cup each

If you are supporting Crosby for 4th best F all time you have to admit Ovi is ahead of him if Hull is the one you are comparing them to

 

[MadLuke]

Ovechkin has more claim to 4th best than Crosby for this reason imo. He is similar to the Golden Jet in nearly everyway...

7x "Richard" for Hull 8x for Ovi
3x Art Ross for Hull 1x for Ovi
2x Hart for Hull 3x for Ovi

Plus 1 Cup each

If you are supporting Crosby for 4th best F all time you have to admit Ovi is ahead of him if Hull is the one you are comparing them to

There is a couple of difference Hull dominated the league in points both during the regular season and playoff during is time in the NHL, not Ovechkin. That said Hull didn't start is career the same season than Crosby facing a quite old Howe and Beliveau.

Top 10 finish
Crosby : 1,1,2,2,3,3,3,3,5,6,10
Hull : 1,1,1,2,2,2,4,5,6,7,9
Ovechkin : 1,2,2,3,3,4,7,8

PPG during is NHL career

Regular season (750 games or more) for both Career:
Hull: 1.11
Howe: 1.09
Beliveau: 1.08
Mikita: 1.08


Playoff (over 100 games)
Hull: 1.11
Beliveau: 1.02
Mikita: 0.97
Mahovlich: .81

Vs
RS (750 games or more)
Crosby: 1.29
Malkin: 1.18
Ovechkin: 1.12
Kane: 1.04

Playoff (100 games or more)
Crosby: 1.13
Malkin: 1.04
Ovechkin: .98
Kane: .97

Crosby career do seem closer to Hull nhl career, Crosby look like he separated himself from the pack more than Hull so if he age well...

 

[Legend123]

mcdavid goat

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

Who is the 4th forward then after Wayne, Mario and Mr Hockey?

Jagr, Esposito, Messier

 

[MadLuke]

Who is the 4th forward then after Wayne, Mario and Mr Hockey?

There is no consensus at all, but the usual name contending are Hull, Beliveau, Richard, Morenz in that order, with Crosby, Jagr, Ovechkin, Lafleur, Mikita, Esposito type not too far.

I guess some more all around game could have Clarke/Trottier higher than some of those and many will have some soviet era forward also in that spot.

 

[Snowpants]

There is a couple of difference Hull dominated the league in points both during the regular season and playoff during is time in the NHL, not Ovechkin.

Yes I would put Hull ahead still just saying if you are picking one of Crosby or Ovi to challenge that #4 spot I do not see how you can make a good case for Crosby.

Crosby career do seem closer to Hull nhl career, Crosby look like he separated himself from the pack more than Hull so if he age well...

I do not see it. No one is going to remember Crosby in thirty years for a bunch of 2nd 3rd place point finishes. He will have his overall play and "clutch" play to boost him. Ovi though is the best scorer of his generation hands down and maybe the best when all is said and done. If you want to talk separating from the pack 8x Richard is the more impressive accomplishment hands down.