Is Quebec's berth in the Nationals obsolete?

[Canadiens1958]

Poll Closed

The poll has been closed since the topic is not really "Poll Worthy" . Realistic appraisal - one opinion against many. Not really a poll.

The only viable aspect of the thread may be asking the question, whether CIS hockey in the province of Quebec has growth potential? Adding more teams is an increasing possibility with the rapid growth of pre university school hockey in the province of Quebec.

Université de Montréal, Sherbrooke and Laval seem to be viable candidates mid term.

 

[Hollywood3]

The poll has been closed since the topic is not really "Poll Worthy" . Realistic appraisal - one opinion against many. Not really a poll.

The only viable aspect of the thread may be asking the question, whether CIS hockey in the province of Quebec has growth potential? Adding more teams is an increasing possibility with the rapid growth of pre university school hockey in the province of Quebec.

Université de Montréal, Sherbrooke and Laval seem to be viable candidates mid term.

I guess it depends on what one means by "potential". I have been digging up stuff on each conference for pre-season stories but I may as well delve into Quebec now.

Prior to the 1971-72 season there were three conferences operating US-style in Ontario and Quebec. The QOAA was for the big old schools, and the OSLC and OIAA were for newer and smaller ones. Those three conferences were then whittled into two conferences along provincial lines, the OUAA and QUAA.

In the final season of the three conference mode, i.e. 1970-71, the alignment was like this:

OIAA (6)
Laurentian
York
Waterloo Lutheran (later became Wilfrid Laurier)
Ryerson
Brock
Trent

OSLC (7)
Loyola College (later merged with SGW into Concordia)
UQTR
Bishop's
Sherbrooke
Royal Military College
Sir George Williams (later merged Loyola into Concordia)
MacDonald College (now part of McGill)
(Note: Ottawa, Carleton, and Queen's were previously in this conference as well.)

QOAA (12)
Waterloo
Toronto
Guelph
Western Ontario
McMaster
Windsor
Carleton
Queen's
Montreal
Laval
McGill
Ottawa

At the end of that season, Trent (OIAA), MacDonald College (OSLC), and Laval (QOAA) all ceased to exist, but did make later comebacks. Some teams previously folded were St. Patrick's College (became part of Carleton) and College Militaire Royale (the French equivalent of RMC).

In 1971-72 the QUAA was formed with 8 teams, including RMC from Ontario. The other 14 teams from Ontario formed the OUAA. The 7 teams from Quebec were:
Loyola College
Sir George Williams
Montreal
McGill
Sherbrooke
Bishop's
UQTR

Once the QUAA was established, it was mostly downhill. Montreal left in 1972, never to return. They had operated continuously since 1946, and most seasons from 1908.

MacDonald came back in 1973-74 before leaving for good, along with Sherbrooke.

Laval came back in 1975-76 and stayed for two years. After one season away, they came back for five seasons (1978-79 to 1982-83). Quebec City's only university has not since iced a team.

The merger of Loyola and SGW in 1975-76 also cost the conference a team. In fact, those two were often the Quebec finalists. Concordia has seldom been so successful.

UQ Chicoutimi started a team in 1976-77 and they played until 1985-86. They no longer operate sports programs. They also qualified for the 1979 University Cup. Host Concordia won the QUAA, allowing the Inuks to qualify.

In 1981-82 the long-running program at Bishop's bid adieu to hockey.

The QUAA had some life breathed into it in 1979-80 when Ottawa joined from the OUAA. They were the 7th team in the league and remained until the end. The departures of Bishop's in 1982, Laval in 1983, and Chicoutimi in 1986 had chipped the conference down to 4 teams for its final season in 1986-87.

Currently, there are many big universities in Quebec without hockey teams, including Montreal with 55,000 students, and three more (Shebrooke, UQAM, and Laval) with over 35,000.

Does CIS hockey have a problem in French Quebec? Historically, the English universities have been the foundation. UQTR and Moncton are the only French universities in CIS hockey.

Is hockey on the decline in Quebec? By birth province, the numbers are now:
Ontario 219
Alberta 72
Quebec 59
British Columbia 57
Saskatchewan 44
Manitoba 32
http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/province-totals/nhl-players-2013-14-stats.html

Ten years ago, the numbers were:
Ontario 202
Quebec 94
Alberta 92
British Columbia 54
Saskatchewan 52
Manitoba 25
http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/province-totals/nhl-players-2003-04-stats.html

Twenty years ago:
Ontario 224
Quebec 110
Alberta 86
British Columbia 57
Saskatchewan 45
Manitoba 23
http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/province-totals/nhl-players-1993-94-stats.html

Thirty years ago:
Ontario 261
Quebec 76
Alberta 64
Saskatchewan 49
British Columbia 45
Manitoba 30
http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/province-totals/nhl-players-1983-84-stats.html

Forty years ago:
Ontario 198
Quebec 78
Saskatchewan 41
Manitoba 27
Alberta 28
British Columbia 18
http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/province-totals/nhl-players-1973-74-stats.html

Fifty years ago:
Ontario 64
Quebec 42
Saskatchewan 18
Alberta 15
Manitoba 14
Nova Scotia 4
British Columbia 1
http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/province-totals/nhl-players-1963-64-stats.html

It seems inevitable that Quebec will fall to 4th place in terms of player development. At one time, this was unthinkable. In fact, falling to 5th is a distinct possibility. Amazingly, it could fall behind Minnesota, currently with 42 players.

Is the lack of university support for hockey in Quebec related to this trend?

Still, there are a load of French players out there. There are a load of big French schools without teams. Montreal has an arena and a women's team, and one would think would be the leading contender to form a new team.

Would Ottawa consider a shift (assuming they come back)? And Carleton, Queen's, and RMC?

Most importantly, would a Quebec conference entice places like Laval or Sherbrooke to consider a team? Is the prospect of joining a league which stretches all over Ontario something they woud rather avoid?

 

[cishockeyfan]

You keep highlighting the fact that its been 27 years and its time to stop giving Quebec an automatic berth.

I would say its been 27 years years, time to stop thinking of the OUA East as a Quebec division. In no way is it an automatic berth to Quebec Teams, it just happens to be UQTR and McGill have been the strongest teams in that division for 27 years.

how the berths are awarded now is the best its going to get. Excluding the Host Team awarding 3 spots to the OUA out of 20 teams vs 2 of 8 for the Canada West and AUS is totally fair. In fact prob unfair to the OUA.

Realistically the OUA East and OUA West should be considered 2 separate conferences that play interleague games like MLB or cis football with quebec vs Atlantic.

There is an opportunity for 7 other Ontario teams to win the OUA East each year vs the 3 quebec teams, theres no automatic berth there at all.

Two other opinions of mine is I would love to see more Quebec teams in the CIS and it baffles me that their isnt. yes i understand the QMJHL is big and so is quebec senior hockey but so is the OHL and WHL and a multitude of other leagues in those areas. Qmjhl teams thrive in atlantic canada too, and their is CIS teams having steady success in those areas no problem.

not a fan of the 8 team University Cup, way too many teams, 1 in 4 CIS teams make the Nationals now, its eliminated the importance of the conference Championship. Sure there is still pride to win, but knowing your going to play for a bigger prize anyway eliminates the sense of urgency. When a semi injured player would normally play regardless when its all or nothing now will sit and rest for a meaningful Championchip. Unless its a host entry no 3rd or 4th place finisher in a conference should have the right to cash in a FREE ticket to the national championchip. The best format that will never happen would be 4- conference champions and 1 host team playing a 5 team round robin. 3 vs 2 in a semi And 1st gets a buy.

 

[Hollywood3]

You keep highlighting the fact that its been 27 years and its time to stop giving Quebec an automatic berth.

I would say its been 27 years years, time to stop thinking of the OUA East as a Quebec division. In no way is it an automatic berth to Quebec Teams, it just happens to be UQTR and McGill have been the strongest teams in that division for 27 years.

how the berths are awarded now is the best its going to get. Excluding the Host Team awarding 3 spots to the OUA out of 20 teams vs 2 of 8 for the Canada West and AUS is totally fair. In fact prob unfair to the OUA.

Realistically the OUA East and OUA West should be considered 2 separate conferences that play interleague games like MLB or cis football with quebec vs Atlantic.

There is an opportunity for 7 other Ontario teams to win the OUA East each year vs the 3 quebec teams, theres no automatic berth there at all.

Two other opinions of mine is I would love to see more Quebec teams in the CIS and it baffles me that their isnt. yes i understand the QMJHL is big and so is quebec senior hockey but so is the OHL and WHL and a multitude of other leagues in those areas. Qmjhl teams thrive in atlantic canada too, and their is CIS teams having steady success in those areas no problem.

not a fan of the 8 team University Cup, way too many teams, 1 in 4 CIS teams make the Nationals now, its eliminated the importance of the conference Championship. Sure there is still pride to win, but knowing your going to play for a bigger prize anyway eliminates the sense of urgency. When a semi injured player would normally play regardless when its all or nothing now will sit and rest for a meaningful Championchip. Unless its a host entry no 3rd or 4th place finisher in a conference should have the right to cash in a FREE ticket to the national championchip. The best format that will never happen would be 4- conference champions and 1 host team playing a 5 team round robin. 3 vs 2 in a semi And 1st gets a buy.

The OUA East has not been made into a conference. At one time there was an OQ football conference when Quebec did not have enough football teams to form a conference. So it could be done.

Oddly, the OUA would still get Quebec's berth if the Quebec teams were fighting for last. It does not matter. If the Quebec teams joined the AUS then the AUS would get that berth.

The nationals will never be more than 3 games per team. They are held in March just before exams. When there were 5 conferences the nationals were still single knock-out.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Quebec University Hockey

I guess it depends on what one means by "potential". I have been digging up stuff on each conference for pre-season stories but I may as well delve into Quebec now.

Prior to the 1971-72 season there were three conferences operating US-style in Ontario and Quebec. The QOAA was for the big old schools, and the OSLC and OIAA were for newer and smaller ones. Those three conferences were then whittled into two conferences along provincial lines, the OUAA and QUAA.

In the final season of the three conference mode, i.e. 1970-71, the alignment was like this:

OIAA (6)
Laurentian
York
Waterloo Lutheran (later became Wilfrid Laurier)
Ryerson
Brock
Trent

OSLC (7)
Loyola College (later merged with SGW into Concordia)
UQTR
Bishop's
Sherbrooke
Royal Military College
Sir George Williams (later merged Loyola into Concordia)
MacDonald College (now part of McGill)
(Note: Ottawa, Carleton, and Queen's were previously in this conference as well.)

QOAA (12)
Waterloo
Toronto
Guelph
Western Ontario
McMaster
Windsor
Carleton
Queen's
Montreal
Laval
McGill
Ottawa

At the end of that season, Trent (OIAA), MacDonald College (OSLC), and Laval (QOAA) all ceased to exist, but did make later comebacks. Some teams previously folded were St. Patrick's College (became part of Carleton) and College Militaire Royale (the French equivalent of RMC).

In 1971-72 the QUAA was formed with 8 teams, including RMC from Ontario. The other 14 teams from Ontario formed the OUAA. The 7 teams from Quebec were:
Loyola College
Sir George Williams
Montreal
McGill
Sherbrooke
Bishop's
UQTR

Once the QUAA was established, it was mostly downhill. Montreal left in 1972, never to return. They had operated continuously since 1946, and most seasons from 1908.

MacDonald came back in 1973-74 before leaving for good, along with Sherbrooke.

Laval came back in 1975-76 and stayed for two years. After one season away, they came back for five seasons (1978-79 to 1982-83). Quebec City's only university has not since iced a team.

The merger of Loyola and SGW in 1975-76 also cost the conference a team. In fact, those two were often the Quebec finalists. Concordia has seldom been so successful.

UQ Chicoutimi started a team in 1976-77 and they played until 1985-86. They no longer operate sports programs. They also qualified for the 1979 University Cup. Host Concordia won the QUAA, allowing the Inuks to qualify.

In 1981-82 the long-running program at Bishop's bid adieu to hockey.

The QUAA had some life breathed into it in 1979-80 when Ottawa joined from the OUAA. They were the 7th team in the league and remained until the end. The departures of Bishop's in 1982, Laval in 1983, and Chicoutimi in 1986 had chipped the conference down to 4 teams for its final season in 1986-87.

Currently, there are many big universities in Quebec without hockey teams, including Montreal with 55,000 students, and three more (Shebrooke, UQAM, and Laval) with over 35,000.

Does CIS hockey have a problem in French Quebec? Historically, the English universities have been the foundation. UQTR and Moncton are the only French universities in CIS hockey.

Is hockey on the decline in Quebec? By birth province, the numbers are now:
Ontario 219
Alberta 72
Quebec 59
British Columbia 57
Saskatchewan 44
Manitoba 32
http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/province-totals/nhl-players-2013-14-stats.html

Ten years ago, the numbers were:
Ontario 202
Quebec 94
Alberta 92
British Columbia 54
Saskatchewan 52
Manitoba 25
http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/province-totals/nhl-players-2003-04-stats.html

Twenty years ago:
Ontario 224
Quebec 110
Alberta 86
British Columbia 57
Saskatchewan 45
Manitoba 23
http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/province-totals/nhl-players-1993-94-stats.html

Thirty years ago:
Ontario 261
Quebec 76
Alberta 64
Saskatchewan 49
British Columbia 45
Manitoba 30
http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/province-totals/nhl-players-1983-84-stats.html

Forty years ago:
Ontario 198
Quebec 78
Saskatchewan 41
Manitoba 27
Alberta 28
British Columbia 18
http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/province-totals/nhl-players-1973-74-stats.html

Fifty years ago:
Ontario 64
Quebec 42
Saskatchewan 18
Alberta 15
Manitoba 14
Nova Scotia 4
British Columbia 1
http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/province-totals/nhl-players-1963-64-stats.html

It seems inevitable that Quebec will fall to 4th place in terms of player development. At one time, this was unthinkable. In fact, falling to 5th is a distinct possibility. Amazingly, it could fall behind Minnesota, currently with 42 players.

Is the lack of university support for hockey in Quebec related to this trend?

Still, there are a load of French players out there. There are a load of big French schools without teams. Montreal has an arena and a women's team, and one would think would be the leading contender to form a new team.

Would Ottawa consider a shift (assuming they come back)? And Carleton, Queen's, and RMC?

Most importantly, would a Quebec conference entice places like Laval or Sherbrooke to consider a team? Is the prospect of joining a league which stretches all over Ontario something they woud rather avoid?[/QUOTE]

Québec university hockey dropped with introduction in 1969 of the two year CEGEP / 3 year university structure leading to a bachelor's degree. Grade 12 was dropped, creating a situation where highschool ends at grade 11.Coupled with the exodus of quality talent to the NCAA, US prep school, USHL route which yields a bachelors degree within 4 seasons instead of 5.

 

[Hollywood3]

I guess it depends on what one means by "potential". I have been digging up stuff on each conference for pre-season stories but I may as well delve into Quebec now.

...

OSLC (7)
Loyola College (later merged with SGW into Concordia)
UQTR
Bishop's
Sherbrooke
Royal Military College
Sir George Williams (later merged Loyola into Concordia)
MacDonald College (now part of McGill)
(Note: Ottawa, Carleton, and Queen's were previously in this conference as well.)

...

In 1971-72 the QUAA was formed with 8 teams, including RMC from Ontario. The other 14 teams from Ontario formed the OUAA. The 7 teams from Quebec were:
Loyola College
Sir George Williams
Montreal
McGill
Sherbrooke
Bishop's
UQTR

...

Most importantly, would a Quebec conference entice places like Laval or Sherbrooke to consider a team? Is the prospect of joining a league which stretches all over Ontario something they woud rather avoid?

Québec university hockey dropped with introduction in 1969 of the two year CEGEP / 3 year university structure leading to a bachelor's degree. Grade 12 was dropped, creating a situation where highschool ends at grade 11.Coupled with the exodus of quality talent to the NCAA, US prep school, USHL route which yields a bachelors degree within 4 seasons instead of 5.

I see a few holes in your theory:

1. Not a lot of players in CIS come straight from high school. (Especially since the advent of the CHL scholarships.) The CEGEP typical age group (what would, if not for hockey, be grade 12 and 1st year university age in other provinces) is playing either major junior or junior A (AAA in Quebec). To the extent that CEGEPs play hockey, they are an alternative to junior A (or AAA). The CIS teams would have access to these players at the same time as the players from the rest of Canada, if not one year earlier.

2. There is no evidence that the "exodus" from Quebec to the USA was any more pronounced than for other provinces.

3. How does the USHL grant degrees?

4. The 5 year rule allows players to spread out a degree over one more season if they so choose, or to take post-graduate studies or 2nd degrees. Most degrees take only 4 years. I know the Bisons have lost a lot of guys after year 4 because they are finished school. In any event, this phenomenon has no special applicability to Quebec teams.

All-in-all, Quebec teams are getting players from the same/equivalent leagues as the rest. They really should have three French teams instead of just the one.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Back Tracking

I see a few holes in your theory:

1. Not a lot of players in CIS come straight from high school. (Especially since the advent of the CHL scholarships.) The CEGEP typical age group (what would, if not for hockey, be grade 12 and 1st year university age in other provinces) is playing either major junior or junior A (AAA in Quebec). To the extent that CEGEPs play hockey, they are an alternative to junior A (or AAA). The CIS teams would have access to these players at the same time as the players from the rest of Canada, if not one year earlier.

2. There is no evidence that the "exodus" from Quebec to the USA was any more pronounced than for other provinces.

3. How does the USHL grant degrees?

4. The 5 year rule allows players to spread out a degree over one more season if they so choose, or to take post-graduate studies or 2nd degrees. Most degrees take only 4 years. I know the Bisons have lost a lot of guys after year 4 because they are finished school. In any event, this phenomenon has no special applicability to Quebec teams.

All-in-all, Quebec teams are getting players from the same/equivalent leagues as the rest. They really should have three French teams instead of just the one.

Initially the Québec universities offered a CEGEP equivalence program until the newly formed CEGEPs. could get up to speed. Loyola & SGWU, later merged into Concordia benefited by getting players the likes of Larry Carriere, Jim Corsi and others directly out of high school into their program.

Problem for the Québec universities, with grade 11 is that it allows Québec players a one year head start out of the province on their peers and the opportunity to shop for a four year path to a bachelors instead of a five year path.

This is where the USHL comes in. Players from Québec do not lose a year towards a degree but benefit from extra exposure to the NCA schools. At worst they break even - four year undergrad degree after exposure to one year of US high school vs 5 years total. Value of an Ivy League degree vs say Concordia or UQTR is rather obvious.

The student bodies at McGill and Concordia feature a very hig rate of French Canadians. Always did. The admissions are program driven, not language driven.