Is Ovechkin a greater player than Yzerman and Sakic

[Mrb1p]

what? Did Sakic screw your sister or something?

Why ? I love Joe, one of my favorite players ever. But he doesn't have the sheer dominance to be a top 20ish player, IMO.

Zero points and PPG top finish.

Yzerman doesn't have it either, but his offensive prime was against Lemieux and Gretzky, and he was very far off #4 in points, no doubt he'd have an Art ross at least.

I think Joe benefits from era, while Yzerman is probably the biggest shaft ever. 1.4 ppg over 700 games for Stevie ? Thats insanity.

I know Sakic probably has him on longevity if were being honest, but I value peak a lot more, as usual.

 

[93LEAFS]

what? Did Sakic screw your sister or something?

Separating Sakic and Stevie Y is difficult. I'd probably lean Stevie Y, but Sakic has more individual hardware (mainly a Hart Trophy). I loved both of the Canadian players, but this is Ovi.

 

[93LEAFS]

I picked a year where the Red Wings won the president's (95-96)

7/9 of their top scorers are hall of famers what lol. Trying to say that Ovi played on stacked teams but completely disregarding the fact that Yzerman also played on stacked teams is just delusional.

Yzerman played from 83-06 in that span they won the president's 5 times. 94-95, 95-96, 01-02, 03-04, 05-06 (probably would've won one in 04-05 if not for the lockout). Ovechkin played from 05-present and in that time he's won the president's 3 times. In the years that Yzerman won the president's, he never led the team in scoring

94-95, 38 points to Coffey's 58
95-96, 95 points to Fedorov's 107
01-02, 48 points to Shanhan's 75 (Yzerman was injured this year)
03-04, 51 points to Datsyuk's 68
05-06, 34 points to Datsyuk's 87

Whereas the Caps

09-10, 109 points, led team in scoring
15-16, 71 points to Kuznetsov's 77
16-17, 69 points to Backstrom's 86

Fair point, but I would say, Fetisov and Larionov are there primarily for their iconic National team performance in the '80s and Ciccarelli is one of the most fringe HOFer's who got in based on crazy counting stats from the 80's.

 

[93LEAFS]

Why ? I love Joe, one of my favorite players ever. But he doesn't have the sheer dominance to be a top 20ish player, IMO.

Zero points and PPG top finish.

Yzerman doesn't have it either, but his offensive prime was against Lemieux and Gretzky, and he was very far off #4 in points, no doubt he'd have an Art ross at least.

I think Joe benefits from era, while Yzerman is probably the biggest shaft ever. 1.4 ppg over 700 games for Stevie ? Thats insanity.

I know Sakic probably has him on longevity if were being honest, but I value peak a lot more, as usual.

How does Sakic benefit from Era? If its that he avoided Lemeiux and Gretzky's peak fair. But, Stevie Y put up numbers in the easiest era to put up counting stats in the league's history.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I picked a year where the Red Wings won the president's (95-96)

7/9 of their top scorers are hall of famers what lol. Trying to say that Ovi played on stacked teams but completely disregarding the fact that Yzerman also played on stacked teams is just delusional.

Yzerman played from 83-06 in that span they won the president's 5 times. 94-95, 95-96, 01-02, 03-04, 05-06 (probably would've won one in 04-05 if not for the lockout). Ovechkin played from 05-present and in that time he's won the president's 3 times. In the years that Yzerman won the president's, he never led the team in scoring

94-95, 38 points to Coffey's 58
95-96, 95 points to Fedorov's 107
01-02, 48 points to Shanhan's 75 (Yzerman was injured this year)
03-04, 51 points to Datsyuk's 68
05-06, 34 points to Datsyuk's 87

Whereas the Caps

09-10, 109 points, led team in scoring
15-16, 71 points to Kuznetsov's 77
16-17, 69 points to Backstrom's 86

Much of Steve Yzerman's prime was on crappy teams though. He was absolutely incredible until a knee injury in '94. He was never the same afterwards. I think at his peak he was better than Sakic was. Just an unreal player. But Sakic was healthier over the long haul and better in his later years than Yzerman was. By the time Yzerman was at the end of his career he was basically skating on a bionic knee.

That's one huge plus for OV. He's been healthy almost his entire career. Gives him a huge edge over other players.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

HELL N-O!

Ovies NHL career is one lucky SC away from failure.

If Washington didn't win utterly gassed out Vegas side,
there would have been loads of threads about Ovie and not ever winning a SC (still)
and people comparing him to all of those great offensive players who didn't win.

 

[Mrb1p]

How does Sakic benefit from Era? If its that he avoided Lemeiux and Gretzky's peak fair. But, Stevie Y put up numbers in the easiest era to put up counting stats in the league's history.

Yes, he avoided them, he peaked in an era where no one really had a grasp on the top.

From 02 to 06, it was completely open. He's in a group with Thornton, St-Louis, Forsberg and Iginla there. Again, don't want to hold this against him as I think.. .He's the best of the group ? 2nd best ? I don't know, tough era to evaluate.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

what? Did Sakic screw your sister or something?

honestly those are the weirdest answers for me in this thread. The ones that have some giant gap between Yzerman and Sakic, no matter who they rate better.

 

[North Cole]

Idk how anyone thinks Ovi is better than both unless they look at just the stats. Both Sakic and Yzerman were guys you built championship teams around and they will deliver. Ovi had stacked teams and continuously failed and the one time his team pulled through, it wasn't like the lit the world on fire. This is a joke. It's classic HF

1. Stats over eye test
2. Not understanding it's about game impact and not numbers
3. Recency bias
4. Highlights over the entire game
5. Not understanding intagibles

I should open up a school, business would be booming with the help you guys need.

Sorry, didn't read the thread to see how many times this post has already been demolished, but felt a need to point out the bold for its absurdity.

Weird that those guys have more cups but the same number of Smythes. Maybe we can pretend playing on a team with the 2nd best goalie of all time Roy, and (HFboards pro-rated stat-God) Forsberg doesn't qualify as stacked. Ov probably wins another cup in one of the other years he torched the playoffs, if he had Roy playing behind him too.

However, unless you're on a distilled nostalgia IV drip, there's zero explanation for how you believe Yzerman didn't play on omega level stacked teams. Other than being the C, was the team even built around him? They had Fedorov when Yzerman was younger and then it was obviously the guy that won absurd amounts of Norris' when Yzerman was older... dude won cups with 6 HOFers on his team lmao. No salary cap should automatically invalidate this argument.

Weird how both of these guys played with a player that was top 3 at their position all time... I'm looking at Ovs team mates throughout his career, cant find a comparable team mate. Also cant find the 4 or 5 other HOFers that he played with while they were in their prime..

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Much of Steve Yzerman's prime was on crappy teams though. He was absolutely incredible until a knee injury in '94. He was never the same afterwards. I think at his peak he was better than Sakic was. Just an unreal player. But Sakic was healthier over the long haul and better in his later years than Yzerman was. By the time Yzerman was at the end of his career he was basically skating on a bionic knee.

That's one huge plus for OV. He's been healthy almost his entire career. Gives him a huge edge over other players.

Yzerman's first serious knee injury was actually in 1988. It's pretty incredible what he accomplished over the years with a deteriorating knee.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

These guys played when Gretzky and Lemieux were past their primes. Gretzky fell off after turning 30 and Lemieux got cancer while Sakic and Yzerman were in their primes.

Everything you've stated here is completely false.

 

[bobholly39]

Yes, he avoided them, he peaked in an era where no one really had a grasp on the top.

From 02 to 06, it was completely open. He's in a group with Thornton, St-Louis, Forsberg and Iginla there. Again, don't want to hold this against him as I think.. .He's the best of the group ? 2nd best ? I don't know, tough era to evaluate.

You're completely out to lunch on Sakic's peak.

From 2002 to 2006 Sakic was aged 32-37. I actually agree with you that those years are weaker on top forwards - but this isn't Sakic's peak. His peak is more in the 1996-2001 frame.

Sakic's 2001 season compares pretty well to Yzerman's 1989 season all things considered. I'm a big sucker for offense, and despite era adjustment I might give Yzerman in 1989 the edge, but they are similar tier.

As for "weak competition" for Sakic - his peak is late 90s. He was competing with Lemieux (not every year, but in any year he played), Forsberg, Lindros....and especially Mr Jaromir - i'll win 5 art ross - Jagr. Both Sakic & Yzerman played in some of the most competitive years for top forwards in the league.

 

[bobholly39]

Ovechkin is a greater player than both of them, very, very easily so imo. Simply a higher caliber player.

 

[bobholly39]

OV is easily ahead of both. Best peak, best prime, individual trophy case is bigger than Yzerman+Sakic combined, more ASTs, etc (even after removing 99/66). No debate.

I agree with you 100% - but the bolded is absolutely meaningless in this comparison.

Winning an AST as a center - especially in the 90s - is way more meaningful than Ovi winning an AST as a winger in his prime, due to competition. Like - it's not even close, so much so that it's not even worth mentioning imo.

Still, I agree with you, Ovechkin clearly ahead of both.

 

[RedLeader]

I'm a Red Wings fan, but it's Ovechkin and not close.

 

[Phosphophyllite]

Ovechkin is probably in my top10 all time, Sakic and Yzerman are more like top25.

 

[amnesiac]

Ovechkin is probably in my top10 all time, Sakic and Yzerman are more like top25.

yep, thats pretty much how Id see it.... off the top of my head:

Gretz
Orr
Mario
Howe
Crosby

Hull
Beliveau
Ovechkin
Richard
Harvey

Jagr
Hasek
Bourque
Shore
Morenz

Mikita
Roy
Lidstrom
Plante
Potvin

Lafleur
Esposito
Messier
Nighbor
Clarke

Brodeur
Sawchuk
Sakic
Yzerman
Trottier

Bossy
Cook
Hall
Robinson
Lindsay

(im not including McDavid yet even though hes def going to be top 20)

 

[Midnight Judges]

Lmao, except everything I've said is factually correct. Even my subjective points are close to the objective truth.

Feel free to respond to my post then. By all means, illustrate the awesomeness of the Capitals defense in Ovie's first 9 years.

 

[Kaner9]

Ovy
Stevie Y
GMJoe

No disrespect on Sakic he's an all timer.

 

[Mitch nylander]

I think Malkin is a better comparable for Yzerman and Sakic.

Ovechkin should be ranked with Hull/Richard/etc. He was the second best player, for over a decade. You can't say the same for the latter.

	Ovechkin	Sakic	Yzerman
Art Rosses	1​	0​	0​
Rockets	9​	1​	0​
Hart	3​	1​	0​
Pearson/Lindsey	3​	1​	1​
Conn Smythe	1​	1​	1​
Calder	1​	0​	0​
Selke	0​	0​	1​
Byng	0​	1​	0​
Individual Awards (excluding Masterton/Messier)	18​	4​	3​
Top 5 point finishes	6 ​	6 ​	3​
Top 5 goal finishes	13​	2​	3​
All Star Team Nomination (1st and 2nd)	13​	1​	3​

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I don't see how anyone can take Sakic or Yzerman over Ovechkin.... It's not even close.

----
When you take into account of teammates of at least 3 years that are hall of famers.

Ovechkin: Nicklas Backstom (likely a hall of fame)

Yzerman: Nicklas Lidstrom, Brendan Shanahan, Sergei Fedorov, Brett Hull, Adam Oates, Paul Coffey, Larry Murphy, Viacheslov Fetisov, Igor Larionov, Chris Chelios, Dominik Hasek, Dino Ciccarelli, Mark Howe, Pavel Datsyuk (95 % a hall of famer),

Sakic: Peter Forsberg, Mats Sundin, Patrick Roy, Rob Blake, + Peter Stastny, Michel Goulet, Guy Lafleur, Ray Bourque for 2 seasons.

It makes it even more obvious. I can't really think of any argument that makes this in Sakic or Yzerman's favour.

 

[DieSendungmitderMaus]

Idk how anyone thinks Ovi is better than both unless they look at just the stats. Both Sakic and Yzerman were guys you built championship teams around and they will deliver. Ovi had stacked teams and continuously failed and the one time his team pulled through, it wasn't like the lit the world on fire. This is a joke. It's classic HF

1. Stats over eye test
2. Not understanding it's about game impact and not numbers
3. Recency bias
4. Highlights over the entire game
5. Not understanding intagibles

I should open up a school, business would be booming with the help you guys need.

Hi Steve Simmonds

 

[Midnight Judges]

If Washington didn't win utterly gassed out Vegas side...

Vegas sliced through the west with no problems, going 12-3. In the SCF they were coming off a 5 game series against the Jets.

What on Earth are you talking about.

 

[pi314]

There is no question that Ovechkin has more awards.

Because of that, history will remember him as greater than both.

But real hockey and highlight reel stat hockey are different things.

He’s also the biggest floater of his time.

Ovechkin is closer to Brett Hull than most would like to admit.

If you put a team of 2-way Stevie Y’s against a team of Ovechkins, Stevie Y would own the puck.

The Ovechkin team would just be standing around by the face off circle waiting for someone else to do something so they could get a one timer.

I don’t even think it would be close.

If they played 100 games, Stevie Y would win all 100.

Complete hockey players are guys you win with.

It’s not a coincidence that both these guys have won more.

 

[Melrose Munch]

In a vacuum yes.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Ovechkin is greater.

Yzerman and Sakic were better players.