Is MPS an option on the 2nd line??

McBooya42

Let's do this!
Jun 28, 2010
8,525
5,998
Edmonton
I think that MPS brings more to the table on the 2nd line than Hemsky does and should be considered as an option.I will outline why by comparing their skillsets.

Ales Hemsky
- elite speed
-very good possesion game
-elite o-zone entry via possesion
-very conservative decision making on both shot and pass
-very good passing ability
-excellent shot
-is one dimensional in his prime strength of possesion o-zone entry
-Must sacrifice many shooting lanes to stay outside and drive very deep into the zone to be effective in is entry tactic
-Is consistantly predictable to opposition d-men
-forces his linemates into specific areas and roles
-does not present a scoring threat on the rush or on the wraparound consistantly holds puck for pass
-Has size limitations nulified by elite speed but can be shut down with physicality.

MPS
-Very good speed
-very good possesion game
-developing two way threat entring o-zone using speed and size and has ability to retain possesion on half-wall and catalyse plays using size
-very conservative decison making on shot but very creative with passing
-above average passing ability
-excellent wrist shot but average allround
-is two dimensional in his ability to force the o-zone entry using size and speed and can bust in on speed alone allowing him to establish a half-walloffense at the NHL level
-stays true to shooting lanes on rushes ,is conservative with shots
-is able to project both a speed and physicality threat to d-men and because of his two way game and his newfound half-wall game he presents difficult reads to d-men
-opens up the ice with his size and style and allows teammates space to be creative
-does present a scoring threat on the rush by using his size to stay in proper lanes but is petrified to shoot
-has excellent size and above average speed and presents d-men with a two dimensional attack that is very hard to nullify completely


I am no pro so there are lots of things I have missed,but from these things i believe it looks to me like MPS might be a better fit to play with two potential shooters and present a line with a two dimensional shooting threat as opposed to hemsky and a line with a one dimensional shooting threat.Mps can anchor both Yak and Sam as shooters from the half-wall and defensivly cover for them,Hemmer sacrifices all his defense on one all-in move every time so he forces his line to be one dimensional and to depend on one shooter recieving his perfect pass from behind the net.

I believe MPS has evolved into something of a leader the last two years in OKC and has earned a shot at that 2nd line spot.I believe Hemmeris one dimensional and will be most effective with Smyth and Horcs on the 3rd line working with Whitney on the old Oilers fast break game.Our top two lines are both potentiall identical in design,wait till we see Hall working the half-boards this year with his passing.We need that same consistant two dimensional offensive threat from our first two lines to be sucessfull.And MPS fits into that top six.

I got this far before i stopped reading. MPS isn't even close to bringing more to the 2nd line than Hemsky can until he can put up 0.8 pts per game....period. Hemsky has WAY more offensive talent than MPS. MPS may be more defensively sound, but that's not what we need on our wing opposite Nail for our second (scoring) line.

One other thing...Hemsky is a better shooter and can be a clutch player. Neither of which can be attributed to MPS at this point.

 

BadMedicine*

Guest
So you're basically saying that we need a "trigger" like MPS to replace Hemsky on the 2nd line? All the while moving Hemsky to a line where HE can be the "trigger", instead of utilizing his elite passing skills on the line with Yakupov, who is pretty much the proven "trigger" already. OK, if you say so. Also, you're suggesting placing Hemsky on the Oilers checking line, the line that will be attempting to shut down other team's top lines. Yeah, I can see his scoring opportunities flourishing right now.

The Oilers have to use Hemsky's skill set to full advantage...that being the setup guy for someone who can score goals, like Yakupov.

Thank you for the chance to clarify what I meant.No,I am saying that We need both Yakupov and Gagner to be triggermen on the 2nd line,and if we put Hemsky there his dominating o-zone entry ability which is elite in the NHL will make those two players unable to present a double-headed pure scoring threat.Hemsky needs the puck all the time in a possesion scenario to be so effective and this means he will constntly be owning the disc and looping into the zone to hit a trailer coming in.

We dont need a copper and blue streak that gets so deep in the o-zone all alone with no support who refuses or cant by proxy of his moves shoot the puck on the way in.This converts to much of our puck possesion time into Hemsky possesion time and forces his linemates to be pylons who can take and hold real estate in the middle or in front of the net as they wait for his behind the net passes to squirt out.

We dont really need Hemskys o-zone entry as bad as we used to ,we have skilled players like Yakupov,Gagner and MPS who can gain the zone themselves with much better puck distribution.We already know Hemsky is elite at breaking in down the wall---but so what,if you break into the o-zone on a rush and only get a rushing shot off 10% of the time and then only convert on a from behind the net pass 10% of the time which forces your linemates to be absolutely predictable when they are smallish skilled players instead of beefy netront guys you are in a way wasting those possesions .If the o-zone is gained in a controlled transition --it can be high or low speed-it allows us to bring our support men in as upspeed players and we can involve then in the play immediatly--this gives us control of momentum and most importantly a superior shot at recovering the rebound for a second shot.

I am saying that I think MPS can offer us the right combo of size and speed and o-zone entry versatility ,he can mix it up with his entry tactics more than Hemsky.

When NHL defenses see Hemmer coming down the wing they all immediatly know what to do because he challenges them with pure speed,he forces them into a one on one battle where he wins more than he loses.He may gain the zone more than not but by the time he does defences have reacted and adjusted and hemmer linemates are just getting into the o-zone behind him at the same time,this forces his linemates to be working in a congested and very dangerous area in the middle and in front of the net,most dangerous because with hemmers consistant timeing the d-men arent quite set as he makes his passes meaning they still have some momentum on their side which they can convert to serious hits on our forwards trying to position to recieve a cup Hemskys purple kool-aid.

We do not have the big brutes to put with hemmer that can take the middle or hold the front of the net,and hemmers style was developed when we did have a few guys like that and anyone smaller lived and died by Hemmers timing and one pass.We need to plan for shots that leave rebounds and for that rebound recovery to take place that will give us second and sometimes third shot opportunitys.This means we want our people to have time to come in in supportive roles at the proper time to do this job.If hemmer was a shooter the dynamic wouldnt be like this but if Hemmer was a shootier and stayed in the lanes on his way in he would not gain the o-zone nearly so many times successfully .Hemsky sacrifices shooting lanes and opportunitys off the rush so he can make a high percentage zone entry,this only works for us is we have the types of players with him that can dominate the middle as they come in behind him or they can hold the front of the net waiting as he dipsy doodles and wastes time.For past references Wayne Gretzky who specialised playing from behind the net where hemmer lives,did not rush the puck the entire length of the ice to get to behind the net to make a pass back out,he worked his way into that spot by making shots and showing offensive threats all over the place until he could slip behind there ,often in puck pursuit recovering a rebound from a shot.


I am not in any way saying that if we pitted MPS and hemmer head to head in a skills contest that Hemmer would lose although I would take you up on the bet to illustrate just how much closer they are in all offensive areas then you think,simply because when we are done with offense and MPS is right behind Hemmer I will take note as we turn to look at defense and MPSs overall package surpasses Hemmers in on-ice allround value to our 2nd line.

Who says the 3rd line needs to be focused primarily on shutting down anyone???Our 3rd line should be as offensively catalysed as our 1st and 2nd lines are as should be our 4th line,we are an OFFENSIVE team,a dynamic offensive team,we are not a split-personality anymore we have made a Mission statement towards offense and we need to stop thinking off of our back foot.Less skilled and system committed players are always defending when they face superior skill and system committment on the ice no matter what line they are on.Hemsky makes the 3rd line an offensive line because his special skill can do that for us.Hemmer speed is NHL elite,so he matches up against or dominates even 1st line opposition with regularity.

Hemskys speed makes him a threat from everywhere every minute he is on the ice,his speed is elite and his ability to use it is renowned.He will score his type of goals from any line with any number of minutes,I think we are at the heart of the matter now--we dont need Hemmer to score those types of goals from the second line anymore--his style eats up to much possesion time with to little return---we dont need Hemmers passing skills we need his scoring skills--and the team cant hide his weaknesses anymore,our depth and talent level is exposing those weaknesses.Hemmer needs to score simply because this team doesnt need a designated disher who is catalysed by puck possesion --we need possesion by committe-- as we arent built from the ground up to play that traditional style,we do not and will not have the slow huge beasts that we need in the middle and front of the net to support Hemmers passes --it is what it is.We are manned up to play a possesion/transition game ,but this type of style incorporates many tactics none of which are this level of individual puck possesion by one player that results in no or a late shot.We need controlled transitions that allow us to use ALL of the skill we now have,the days of the Oilers being a one trick pony are over,but it seems our Ponies like Hemmer and Whitney and Smyth and Horcs our fastbreak days holdovers are not going into the night quietly.They will go or we will not be a winning team--our old methods were flawed more than our personell was the entire time.And the development of so many one dimensional players over so many years supports this statement.

Once this team suffers the same illness we experienced last year when we spiralled due to reverting back to this old Oilers methodology--only after an appropriate number of losses will we REVISIT this same argument again and only then will these adjustments I am mentioning be made,under DURESS and in a reactive manner as opposed to a pro-active manner.One way or another this team will need to better utilise its assets across the board or we will not find the wins we need.I dont make the assumption our players of the past were just not skilled enough,I feel the system was flawed for over ten years,our recent influx of skill and talent is wondeful but if we gravitate back to that one dimensional fastbreak style we are doomed to meiocrity talent and skill or not,Winning teams win with a winning system,not with loads of skill that is mismanaged.I dont want to put the horse before th cart here,we havent seen what Ralph has planned yet,until we actually see the system he will use we are working in the dark and basing all our analysis off of last years realitys and this years hopes,we need something more concrete like a ten game report before we can gain much from our guesses here.
 
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BadMedicine*

Guest
Well I don't know about that. How about lobbing muffins into the goalie's crest from just inside the blue line?

if you can do that consistantly we can build off of it,after all we try to build off of passes from behind the net that usually have about the same effect on the scoreboard as those muffins being tossed in from the blue-line.At least the blue-line muffins are thrown AFTER we have support people in place to go after rebounds and second shots,ha ha ha.
 

McLotto 97

Believe in 13.5%
Mar 14, 2011
1,094
76
Edmonton
I love MPS. He has everything you need in a dominant winger (almost). Size, Speed, good shot, defensive awareness. He lacks pugnacity and a willingness to engage physically.

Sadly his good shot is almost never used, muffins from the wing, and his speed is rarely used beating people wide. All his short comings are from a lack of compete.

Will he ever become a NHLer....jury still out. Is he better than Hemsky...No AINEC.

Man I hope he puts it all together but looking more and more like a fringe NHLer.
 

The Perfect Human*

Guest
The Hemsky disrespect is earned, by his less than stellar play. For someone who harps on Hall's alleged poor hockey sense, its quite ironic that you would be such a huge Hemsky fan.

For one season...

Given all the flack this guy's taken, and your inability to let the Hall argument go (LOL @ Seguin finishing like 15+ spots ahead of him in TSN's rankings), I think it's worth noting his career point/game since entering the NHL has been higher than Hall's.

Apart from last season, his point/game since the 2005-2006 year has been 0.92 points/game - that's higher than any of the big-3 forwards.

Hemsky does have questionable hockey sense - it's true. It's probably the biggest reason why (moreso than his injury troubles tbh) that he hasn't been able to take his all-world skill and turn it into more. That being said - the results have been there with Hemsky. I'm sorry that it bothers you so much.
 

Jamin

Registered User
Aug 25, 2009
4,924
778
They both have elite speed. Hemsky has a much better offensive game though. And it isn't even really close. Substantially better goal scorer, passer, and a better defensive player.

I like MPS, I hope he works out here. But he isn't close to replacing Hemsky.

This.

Didnt even read the post because I knew it was wrong after his first sentence. MPS needs to start getting points in the AHL before he starts replacing Hemsky. The worst year of Hemsky's career most people agree was last year and he was still better then MPS.

Not that I have anything against MPS I just dont think he is ready based on what Ive seen and based on posters who were watching the AHL and what they had to say
 

Hoogaar23

Registered User
Apr 13, 2011
1,588
20
if you can do that consistantly we can build off of it,after all we try to build off of passes from behind the net that usually have about the same effect on the scoreboard as those muffins being tossed in from the blue-line.At least the blue-line muffins are thrown AFTER we have support people in place to go after rebounds and second shots,ha ha ha.

Let me get this right: You're advocating on behalf of that crap? You think that's a good hockey play by a power forward?

It's a weak ass cowardly play that he needs to get out of his repertoire ASAP. If you're tired and need a change, sure. As your go to move EVERY time you gain the blue line? It's pathetic and painful to watch.

The guy has the tools, but he has the heart of a marshmallow.
 

Insta

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Dec 23, 2005
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I got this far before i stopped reading. MPS isn't even close to bringing more to the 2nd line than Hemsky can until he can put up 0.8 pts per game....period. Hemsky has WAY more offensive talent than MPS. MPS may be more defensively sound, but that's not what we need on our wing opposite Nail for our second (scoring) line.

One other thing...Hemsky is a better shooter and can be a clutch player. Neither of which can be attributed to MPS at this point.



Damn I want that Hemsky back!
 

sepHF

Patreeky
Feb 12, 2010
15,702
3,298
Actually it's looking more and more to me like he'll probably be back in Sweden in a couple of years if he doesn't want to do what has to be done to get an NHL spot. Him and Lander have been awful in OKC and people want to put him on the 2nd line. Wow. But it's ok, the Oilers and a lot of people around the league thought he was going to be a 2nd liner as well but he's seriously regressed. I don't think he wants it bad enough. I still hold hope he'll be a 3rd line checker that can contribute 30-40 points but he's not even doing that in the A.

Good attitude? I'm sure that Todd Nelson dreams of choking him and Lander out at night. They've been told what to do but he's not doing it and not chipping in offensively either. What could we even get in a deal for him now?

Have you watched any OKC games this year? I watched the first 35ish games and I disagree with your entire post.

Replacing Hemsky with MPS on the 2nd line would be dumb but to say that he's not working or that he'll be back in Sweden is just ignorant IMO. He has also had a pretty good start to the season.
 

Supermassive

HISS, HISS
Feb 19, 2007
14,612
1,090
Sherwood Park
Have you watched any OKC games this year? I watched the first 35ish games and I disagree with your entire post.

Replacing Hemsky with MPS on the 2nd line would be dumb but to say that he's not working or that he'll be back in Sweden is just ignorant IMO. He has also had a pretty good start to the season.

There's lies, damned lies, statistics, and biased observers.

I'll be throwing out my biased interpretation of his middling AHL stats (4G, yikes), others' glowing reviews of his play (hmm), and sticking with NHL observation of Mags.

Who's up for an honest group critique starting Sunday?
 

molsonmuscle360

Registered User
Jan 25, 2009
6,587
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Ft. McMurray Ab
It should be an interesting year with him playing on a line with Yakupov. ;)

I think the Yak/Hemsky combo and the fact that we actually have a real third line now are going to be a big part of this teams push forward. Hemsky is great and drawing additional defenders towards him, Yakupov is great at finding that open spot on the ice and getting himself ready to load up. Put those 2 together and that should make for some very annoyed goaltenders.
 

sepHF

Patreeky
Feb 12, 2010
15,702
3,298
There's lies, damned lies, statistics, and biased observers.

I'll be throwing out my biased interpretation of his middling AHL stats (4G, yikes), others' glowing reviews of his play (hmm), and sticking with NHL observation of Mags.

Who's up for an honest group critique starting Sunday?

Hopefully he'll get to play!

As for his goal totals we shouldn't use that to determine his ability to play. He'll never be a big goal scorer (but I agree he should have a couple more). Keep in mind he lost his PP time and first line minutes due to the kids being down there. Look at his offensive production compared to Hartikainen who played the #1 PP unit and got to play with Eberle and RNH until Hall arrived, suddenly it doesn't look so bad.
 

BadMedicine*

Guest
Let me get this right: You're advocating on behalf of that crap? You think that's a good hockey play by a power forward?

It's a weak ass cowardly play that he needs to get out of his repertoire ASAP. If you're tired and need a change, sure. As your go to move EVERY time you gain the blue line? It's pathetic and painful to watch.

The guy has the tools, but he has the heart of a marshmallow.

Nyet!!I believe that Hemmers reliance on that one dimensional zone entry technique makes him elite at it but also sacrifices shots on net off his rushes because he avoids the shooting lanes to better use his flat out speed to go deep in the zone,his line of attack when aiming to get deep in the zone without shooting is different than if he is driving the lane trying to get a shot on net all the way into the zone.I dont hate the move,I hate when the move is slotted on the 2nd line so it handicaps skillsets that can execute the zone entrys just fine without the one dimensional possesion monster.

Hemsky went to this move shortly after his first serious shoulder injury and never looked back.It is pathetic and painful to watch if the coach hasnt catalysed hemmer entire line around that zone entry and pass to the front from behind the net.But if the coach has made that move the focal point and put say a guy like hartikainen who can bull down the middle effectively and with speed with a guy like Smyth who can establish himself on the doorstep then hemmers pass will be effective,added bonus is that with a bull coming up the middle the tenders need to take an eye off Hemsky and it opens up his second option the wraparound or the bank in off a leg or two.

Hemmer can make the zone entry all day long but you must tailor his linemates to specific roles and limit their creativity,this is what I fear will happen to our 2nd line.

At this point Hemskys career cant really handle another major shoulder injury so I really dont see him under any circumstances deciding to start batteling his way into shooting lanes and risking that type of damage when he can make clean untouched zone entrys by being teflon with his speed.


I would prefer to see MPS and his speed and zone entrys along with his developing half-wall game--he has learned how to make hard contact with the d-man coming in with speed and how to use that contact to his advantage by initiating it first then using the momentum to create seperation from the d-man so he can use his elite speed to set up for a quick play or pass.This half-wall tactic also allow him to be in an excellent spot to recover defensively if anything goes wrong,it seems to me that was Jarri Kurris favorite spot for the same reasons.I know what hemsky has in his toolbox and I still want to see MPS on the 2nd line,its more about keeping two players on the 2nd line sniping all year long Gagner and Yakupov equally ,not only one as will happen if we see Hemmer there.

I like Hemmers move from the 3rd line.
 

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