Is Matt Murray Broken?

Status
Not open for further replies.

CrosbyMalkin

Registered User
Aug 7, 2005
6,700
1,722
If Matt Murray was a better prospect than Jarry, he would have been drafted as such. He wasn't.

It ain't hard.

I read all your last posts and everyone of them are so biased but let me start with this one. Basing a prospect in the place they had been drafted is totally ridiculous. First off they had been drafted only one round a part. The difference of a second round pick making it to the NHL compared to a 3rd round pick is not much. Also the Pens have had much more luck with 3rd round picks in their history since I have been watching the Pens.

Also Murray was drafted as a project that wasn't doing anything that special up to his being drafted. In fact his stats that season had been 4.08 GAA and .87 save%. So for the Pens to draft him in the 3rd round they saw something they really liked and still drafted him in the 3rd round. Jarry on the other hand was his teams backup but put up outstanding numbers. All he had to prove was could he do it as the starter. So lots of factors come into when a player is drafted and has very little to see who is the best prospect. Murray proved pretty quickly he was the better prospect. Murray's last year of Junior he put up very impressive numbers 2.57 GAA and .921 save%. Then Murray followed up that season with one of the most impressive 20 year old rookie performances of all time in the AHL with a 1.58 GAA and .941 save%. The following year he still has great AHL stats then comes up to the NHL and plays lights out and wins the Cup. Murray proceeds to do that a second year in a row. So saying that Murray was not the better prospect because he was not drafted earlier than Jarry is f'ing ridiculous!

I love how Jarry is playing and I am glad Rutherford didn't trade him like many on these boards wanted to for a mid round pick this training camp. But to say Jarry was the better prospect is laughable. Jarry is no DeSmith and has the pedigree to be a good starter and maybe even a great one. But besides this small sample size he has done nothing compared to what Murray has done. His AHL numbers are not even close to Murray's and Murray won two Cups while Jarry was still figuring it out in the AHL at the same age. Sorry, Murray proved to be the much better prospect. Using draft placement is one of the lamest arguments I ever heard. The development after the draft was considerably different. But wait Jarry was drafted one round higher so he was the better prospect.:help:

I dare you to find the goalies all time that shown better results as a prospect than Murray's 2013-14 through 2016-17 seasons from the ages of 19-22 year old seasons. Good luck with that.:laugh:
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Shady Machine

heysmilinstrange

Registered User
Nov 10, 2016
3,319
4,764
Like what?

Rational and armed with irrefutable facts?

Matt Murray was a diamond in the rough pick. He's somebody we got a lot more out of than was expected. And that's great.

Jarry was the centerpiece of our draft and the 2nd overall goalie drafted in 2013. He was drafted with the intention of supplanting MAF one day. Do i really need to post how many G we're thought of more highly in 2012?

It ain't hard.

No, prone to simple factual errors that you're really smug and condescending about.
 

ChaosAgent

Registered User
May 8, 2018
17,733
12,092
No, prone to simple factual errors that you're really smug and condescending about.

I mean, this is the guy who claims the Pirates should have known about the impending against criminal charges against Felipe Vazquez before the trade deadline soooo.....
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,776
7,803
Oblivion Express
I mean, this is the guy who claims the Pirates should have known about the impending against criminal charges against Felipe Vazquez before the trade deadline soooo.....

Yeah, no. It's incredible how easy it is for people to make up bullshit on the net.

I said, from May onward that Vasquez should have been dealt because A, the Pirates suck, and B, the return for him would have been massive. You know months before anyone even knew of the charges.

Has nothing to do with him being a despicable human being.

But hey, it's a fake news world we live in.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,776
7,803
Oblivion Express
I read all your last posts and everyone of them are so biased but let me start with this one. Basing a prospect in the place they had been drafted is totally ridiculous. First off they had been drafted only one round a part. The difference of a second round pick making it to the NHL compared to a 3rd round pick is not much. Also the Pens have had much more luck with 3rd round picks in their history since I have been watching the Pens.

Also Murray was drafted as a project that wasn't doing anything that special up to his being drafted. In fact his stats that season had been 4.08 GAA and .87 save%. So for the Pens to draft him in the 3rd round they saw something they really liked and still drafted him in the 3rd round. Jarry on the other hand was his teams backup but put up outstanding numbers. All he had to prove was could he do it as the starter. So lots of factors come into when a player is drafted and has very little to see who is the best prospect. Murray proved pretty quickly he was the better prospect. Murray's last year of Junior he put up very impressive numbers 2.57 GAA and .921 save%. Then Murray followed up that season with one of the most impressive 20 year old rookie performances of all time in the AHL with a 1.58 GAA and .941 save%. The following year he still has great AHL stats then comes up to the NHL and plays lights out and wins the Cup. Murray proceeds to do that a second year in a row. So saying that Murray was not the better prospect because he was not drafted earlier than Jarry is f'ing ridiculous!

I love how Jarry is playing and I am glad Rutherford didn't trade him like many on these boards wanted to for a mid round pick this training camp. But to say Jarry was the better prospect is laughable. Jarry is no DeSmith and has the pedigree to be a good starter and maybe even a great one. But besides this small sample size he has done nothing compared to what Murray has done. His AHL numbers are not even close to Murray's and Murray won two Cups while Jarry was still figuring it out in the AHL at the same age. Sorry, Murray proved to be the much better prospect. Using draft placement is one of the lamest arguments I ever heard. The development after the draft was considerably different. But wait Jarry was drafted one round higher so he was the better prospect.:help:

I dare you to find the goalies all time that shown better results as a prospect than Murray's 2013-14 through 2016-17 seasons from the ages of 19-22 year old seasons. Good luck with that.:laugh:

All those highlights you posted about Murray are from 2+ years ago.

That is why YOU fail.
 

CrosbyMalkin

Registered User
Aug 7, 2005
6,700
1,722
All those highlights you posted about Murray are from 2+ years ago.

That is why YOU fail.

I was responding to your post below. Tell me how I failed to destroy everything you said in that post. Please enlighten me.

If Matt Murray was a better prospect than Jarry, he would have been drafted as such. He wasn't.

It ain't hard.

Again, show me the goalie prospect that had through the 19-22 year old seasons showed to be a better prospect than Murray. Saying Jarry was the better prospect because he was drafted one round higher is literally insane. Murray was drafted in the 3rd round despite a 4.08 GAA and a .87 save%. You don't draft a goalie that high with those kind of stats unless you see mass potential. Murray rewarded that high pick by going on to have some of the best 19-22 year old prospect seasons of all time.

19 years old 2013-14 season OHL: 32-11-6 2.57 GAA .921 save%.

20 years old 2014-15 season AHL: 25-10-3 1.58 GAA .941 save%.

21 years old 2015-16 season AHL: 20-9-1 2.1 GAA .931 save%. NHL: 9-2-1 2.0 GAA .930 save%. NHL playoffs: 15-6 2.08 GAA .923% wins Cup.

22 years old 2016-17 season NHL: 32-10-4 2.41 GAA .923 save%. Playoffs 7-3 1.70 GAA .937 save% wins Cup.

Do you want me to post Jarry's 19-22 year old prospect years to show the drastic difference? Like I said find a prospect that beats Murray's development. Murray was a much better prospect than Jarry and to say because Jarry was drafted one round higher makes him the better prospect is just ridiculous.

If you would like me to destroy your other posts just as easily. Point out the one you would like me to destroy next please.:naughty:

Jarry 24 hasn't even become an established NHL starter yet. With such a small sample size we are ready to say he is a high end starter? I hope he does prove he is but as far as a prospect he comes not even close to what Murray was as a prospect. I like Jarry and want to keep him but the jury is still out on him dethroning Murray as the future starter. I hope he keeps it up and the Pens have two goalies that can help them win another Cup.

As far as you saying my stats are from several years ago that is because of your ridiculous notion that Jarry was the better prospect. Murray proved last year he still could play at his past glorious level when he was one of the best goalies in the league from December on last season. The whole team played poorly in the 4 game playoff sweep and that was hardly Murray's fault. Crosby had 1 assist in 4 games so I won't judge either player for such a small sample size.

Bottom line is Murray is a goalie that can play at an elite level for long stretches but also can have stretches of below average play and is injured easily. That sums up Murray. So Murray is not perfect and with his injury history and stretches of poor play it is important to have a good backup and luckily the Pens have two. Hopefully Jarry proves he can be more but at 24 he still has much to prove he is legit.
 
Last edited:

Khelandros

Registered User
Feb 12, 2019
3,926
4,410
I'm really just interested in what Chiodo could bring to the discussion of modern goaltending strategy beyond 'just dont give up on your dream'
Chiodo played 14 years of professional hockey all around the world, retiring in 2017. Mike Buckley has a hockey school.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,776
7,803
Oblivion Express
I was responding to your post below. Tell me how I failed to destroy everything you said in that post. Please enlighten me.



Again, show me the goalie prospect that had through the 19-22 year old seasons showed to be a better prospect than Murray. Saying Jarry was the better prospect because he was drafted one round higher is literally insane. Murray was drafted in the 3rd round despite a 4.08 GAA and a .87 save%. You don't draft a goalie that high with those kind of stats unless you see mass potential. Murray rewarded that high pick by going on to have some of the best 19-22 year old prospect seasons of all time.

19 years old 2013-14 season OHL: 32-11-6 2.57 GAA .921 save%.

20 years old 2014-15 season AHL: 25-10-3 1.58 GAA .941 save%.

21 years old 2015-16 season AHL: 20-9-1 2.1 GAA .931 save%. NHL: 9-2-1 2.0 GAA .930 save%. NHL playoffs: 15-6 2.08 GAA .923% wins Cup.

22 years old 2016-17 season NHL: 32-10-4 2.41 GAA .923 save%. Playoffs 7-3 1.70 GAA .937 save% wins Cup.

Do you want me to post Jarry's 19-22 year old prospect years to show the drastic difference? Like I said find a prospect that beats Murray's development. Murray was a much better prospect than Jarry and to say because Jarry was drafted one round higher makes him the better prospect is just ridiculous.

If you would like me to destroy your other posts just as easily. Point out the one you would like me to destroy next please.:naughty:

Jarry 24 hasn't even become an established NHL starter yet. With such a small sample size we are ready to say he is a high end starter? I hope he does prove he is but as far as a prospect he comes not even close to what Murray was as a prospect. I like Jarry and want to keep him but the jury is still out on him dethroning Murray as the future starter. I hope he keeps it up and the Pens have two goalies that can help them win another Cup.

As far as you saying my stats are from several years ago that is because of your ridiculous notion that Jarry was the better prospect. Murray proved last year he still could play at his past glorious level when he was one of the best goalies in the league from December on last season. The whole team played poorly in the 4 game playoff sweep and that was hardly Murray's fault. Crosby had 1 assist in 4 games so I won't judge either player for such a small sample size.

Bottom line is Murray is a goalie that can play at an elite level for long stretches but also can have stretches of below average play and is injured easily. That sums up Murray. So Murray is not perfect and with his injury history and stretches of poor play it is important to have a good backup and luckily the Pens have two. Hopefully Jarry proves he can be more but at 24 he still has much to prove he is legit.

I'm not interested in shit Murray did 4-5 years ago in the AHL. It has no bearing on where we are today. Same thing with the Cups. We're far enough removed from those runs now. The leash he got from 2017 in particular is stretched to the max.

Basically an astute individual would stop highlighting things Murray did half a decade ago as reason to prop him up now that he's been a faltering goalie for most of the past 2 years, playoffs included.

If Murray manages to backstop us to another Cup I'll literally fling myself from Clemente bridge in Januray, naked.
 

CrosbyMalkin

Registered User
Aug 7, 2005
6,700
1,722
I'm not interested in **** Murray did 4-5 years ago in the AHL. It has no bearing on where we are today. Same thing with the Cups. We're far enough removed from those runs now. The leash he got from 2017 in particular is stretched to the max.

Basically an astute individual would stop highlighting things Murray did half a decade ago as reason to prop him up now that he's been a faltering goalie for most of the past 2 years, playoffs included.

If Murray manages to backstop us to another Cup I'll literally fling myself from Clemente bridge in Januray, naked.

If your not interested in debating the past then don't post stupid posts like the one saying that Jarry was the better prospect because he was drafted a round before Murray. I wouldn't have to destroy your posts then.

As far as since the Cup years. I already posted that since that time Murray has been fragile and missed games and also had stretches of poor play. I also pointed out then in each of those seasons he still showed long stretches of top tier play like his Cup years. I the year after the Cup his father died and was sick and dying during that year. Who could blame him for poor play during that time. When Murray came back after that he was back to his elite self until the injury. Then the following year was last year and he started off poorly and was injured. Then went on to play elite level from December on. Murray has shown great things over his career from 19 years old to present day. Murray has his injury concerns and bouts of poor play but also has proven time and again he can play as good as any goalie in the NHL. I don't know why anyone would want to give up on someone like that so quickly or believe in Jarry so quickly with his small sample size.

I truly hope Jarry keeps it up. He make the Pens deeper and better if he does. But Jarry is 24 and still not an established NHL starter so I will hold the breaks and see how this all plays out.
 

Ragamuffin Gunner

Lost in the Flood
Aug 15, 2008
34,551
6,735
Boston
Sort of tired of people claiming Matt wasn't good last year. He was great from December on and struggled earlier in the year and was injured. He hasn't been good this year and the year prior to last he struggled with consistency(his dad also died, which is helpful context but understand your mileage may vary on using that as an excuse).

There are some concerning signs with his play, no doubt, but I think the narrative about him struggling since the Cup wins is too simplistic.
Yes he was great in that final stretch run last year. However, I think it's pretty important to note that the reason he had to play something like 20 of the last 21 games (don't remember the exact numbers) was due to the hole he dug us with the poor start. All those games led to a incredible mediocre 4 game sweep from MM.
 

heysmilinstrange

Registered User
Nov 10, 2016
3,319
4,764
Yes he was great in that final stretch run last year. However, I think it's pretty important to note that the reason he had to play something like 20 of the last 21 games (don't remember the exact numbers) was due to the hole he dug us with the poor start. All those games led to a incredible mediocre 4 game sweep from MM.

I think it's a stretch to blame last season's relative struggle to make the playoffs on Murray. The team played poor defense, struggled to score at times, and played with much less effort and hunger than it has in the past and is now. While Murray was not great in the playoffs, he was far from the sole reason we lost. I don't think any goaltender could have won us that series against NYI anyway.
 

ChaosAgent

Registered User
May 8, 2018
17,733
12,092
Yeah, no. It's incredible how easy it is for people to make up bull**** on the net.

I said, from May onward that Vasquez should have been dealt because A, the Pirates suck, and B, the return for him would have been massive. You know months before anyone even knew of the charges.

Has nothing to do with him being a despicable human being.

But hey, it's a fake news world we live in.

I agree with you they should have tried to trade Vazquez at the deadline.

By all accounts, they did. They didn't get a return they liked. They figured that he'd retain his value through this year and into next year's trade deadline as well. You acted like they didn't try at all to move him and adopted a "serves the Pirates right" attitude when his criminality came out. This was preposterous.

Back to the actual topic: Listen IE - I'm closer to on your side with Murray than your opposition's. Just watch the personal holier than though stuff. Leave that to others.

Back to the actual topic Pt2: I really think Jordan Spieth is the best comparison for Murray. I know, cross-sport comparison groan. Spieth was great because he had a mental edge even when his physical gifts weren't there. Won a lot very young, about the same age as MM did when he won. Then lost the mental edge and is aimlessly swimming around trying to find it. And as far as cross-sports go...I think goalie is just as close to golf in the job description as it is to, say, center. Such a specialized and mentally-based skill set.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,776
7,803
Oblivion Express
I think it's a stretch to blame last season's relative struggle to make the playoffs on Murray. The team played poor defense, struggled to score at times, and played with much less effort and hunger than it has in the past and is now. While Murray was not great in the playoffs, he was far from the sole reason we lost. I don't think any goaltender could have won us that series against NYI anyway.

Wow, shocking.

The exact, same crap I heard between 2010 and 2013 from the people trying to deflect blame from MAF sucking major arse.
 

heysmilinstrange

Registered User
Nov 10, 2016
3,319
4,764
Wow, shocking.

The exact, same crap I heard between 2010 and 2013 from the people trying to deflect blame from MAF sucking major arse.

I'm merely pointing out that Murray wasn't the sole reason that the team struggled to make the playoffs. It's not exactly a hot take, but hey man, keep grinding that ax.
 

ChaosAgent

Registered User
May 8, 2018
17,733
12,092
If I want to see a spreadsheet come to life, I'll go play an MMO. At least cricket is exotically weird, baseball's just boring. :laugh:

Oh for sure. Baseball's a stupid sport. I love baseball and I recognize that it's a fundamentally dumb game compared to war re-enactment games (hockey, basketball, American Football/Rugby/Aussie football and Soccer).

I also have a bit of a masochism complex with the Pirates. I know it's such an uphill battle for them to be decent that I enjoy watching the struggle, whereas the Penguins organization has been playing this "hockey" game on easy mode since that magical ping-pong ball in 2005 and Malkin left that Finnish hotel room in 2006 (and with a salary cap/floor...)
 

Tom Hanks

Spelling mistakes brought to you by my iPhone.
Nov 10, 2017
30,408
32,434
God, the only thing worse than goalie chat is baseball chat.

De5Z-qHU0AA-IEP.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: HandshakeLin

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
80,382
77,968
Redmond, WA
To say that it was Murray's fault they struggled to make the playoffs last year because of "the whole they dug him in" is so asininely dumb that it's not surprising that it's coming from a Fleury fanboy. And it's not surprising that another Fleury fanboy is defending that claim by making the strawman "this is the same thing people said about Fleury from 2010 to 2013!!!!!!!" post.

Murray had 5 losses and 1 SO loss before he got injured (or was put on IR and shut down). In those 5 regulation losses, the Penguins lost by scores of 5-1, 6-3, 5-0, 5-1 and 4-3. At absolute worst, he cost the Penguins 2 games. At worst.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,776
7,803
Oblivion Express
To say that it was Murray's fault they struggled to make the playoffs last year because of "the whole they dug him in" is so asininely dumb that it's not surprising that it's coming from a Fleury fanboy. And it's not surprising that another Fleury fanboy is defending that claim by making the strawman "this is the same thing people said about Fleury from 2010 to 2013!!!!!!!" post.

Murray had 5 losses and 1 SO loss before he got injured (or was put on IR and shut down). In those 5 regulation losses, the Penguins lost by scores of 5-1, 6-3, 5-0, 5-1 and 4-3. At absolute worst, he cost the Penguins 2 games. At worst.

Anyone who needs to use the word strawman to push back against a narrative is a pleb. Period. Don't pass go. Don't collect $200. I'm surprised I didn't see triggered thrown in there for good measure....

People are literally using the same excuses MAF got from the yinzer crowd from 2010-13 to defend Murray's shit play now.

Do you understand what literally means?
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
80,382
77,968
Redmond, WA
Anyone who needs to use the word strawman to push back against a narrative is a pleb. Period. Don't pass go. Don't collect $200. I'm surprised I didn't see triggered thrown in there for good measure....

People are literally using the same excuses MAF got from the yinzer crowd from 2010-13 to defend Murray's **** play now.

Do you understand what literally means?

I like how you think italicizing "literally" means your dumb post is somehow valid.

Do you understand how to actually make an argument? Because you making arbitrary claims and acting like you're right with literally zero supporting pieces is not "making an argument".
 
  • Like
Reactions: Patric Hornqvist

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,776
7,803
Oblivion Express
I like how you think italicizing "literally" means your dumb post is somehow valid.

Do you understand how to actually make an argument? Because you making arbitrary claims and acting like you're right with literally zero supporting pieces is not "making an argument".

What argument?

There is reality and then there is fantasy.

I know what this board was saying in 2010 through 2013. I know what the casual Pens fan was saying in that time frame.

This board is now using the same BS excuses to defend a goalie who's literally been one of the worst netminders in the league this year and half of last year.

I'd post numbers, but why bother? It's just more literal facts I'm not wasting energy on. Plus I've seen all the games. Literally.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->