Is Konstantinov the greatest Red Wing player without his number in the rafters?

[Big Poppa Puck]

Not Shanahan. He's waaay down the list, even just of recent players. Lidstrom, Fedorov, Konstantinov, Chelios, Osgood, Datsyuk, Zetterberg all are ahead of Shanahan IMHO.

Well Lidstrom is lock to get his number retired next season so that's why no one is listing him and Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still active, so I didn't considered them either.

I'd probably put Shanny ahead of Chelios and Osgood. None of them will ever get it retired though, given the Red Wings strict criteria for it. And seeing that Shanny and Chelios' numbers were given out pretty quickly after they left to the likes of Derek Meech and Brad May, that tells you it really was never even considered.

Konstantinov's number is basically retired anyway, just not in the rafters.

 

[newfy]

Red Kelly is more deserving than Fedorov. People on here just are attached to him because they grew up watching him, Kelly was the greater wing

 

[Crymson]

It's what one does in one's career that matters. Konstantinov played with the organization for six seasons. He was an excellent defender, but six seasons does not earn one a retired number. The end of his career was tragic, yes, and it did motivate the team, yes, but that doesn't change anything as far as jersey retirement is concerned. It is, instead---and rightfully so---reflected in the exception of #16 from circulation.

#91 needs to go up... sooner rather than later.

Had Sergei played the rest of his career with the Wings without incident, he would very likely have earned himself the honor. In the event, he had a very unnecessary and acrimonious split with the organization, moved on, and was booed by the crowd whenever he played in the arena.

I wish he hadn't left, but he did, and at that point he was no longer a Red Wing. He doesn't measure up to the likes of Lidstrom and Yzerman.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Red Kelly is more deserving than Fedorov. People on here just are attached to him because they grew up watching him, Kelly was the greater wing

Seriously disagree with that. I think because of the booing and other stuff people underrate Fedorov.

 

[newfy]

Seriously disagree with that. I think because of the booing and other stuff people underrate Fedorov.

And I honestly dont see an argument for Fedorov ahead of him. Fedorov has his ridiculously good season but Kelly also has 4 Norris seasons. Kelly's ability to switch between forward and D actually trumps Fedorovs. Everyone loves Fedorov and thinks hes great but a large chunk of his time in Detroit he was a 65 point center.

The on ice accomplishments are close enough to make it arguable for sure but I still say Kelly has an edge there. The thing that makes it a for sure for me is that the booing and way Fedorov acted when he left Detroit/held out etc. does play into the decision

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

And I honestly dont see an argument for Fedorov ahead of him. Fedorov has his ridiculously good season but Kelly also has 4 Norris seasons. Kelly's ability to switch between forward and D actually trumps Fedorovs. Everyone loves Fedorov and thinks hes great but a large chunk of his time in Detroit he was a 65 point center.

The on ice accomplishments are close enough to make it arguable for sure but I still say Kelly has an edge there. The thing that makes it a for sure for me is that the booing and way Fedorov acted when he left Detroit/held out etc. does play into the decision

Kelly left in a far from great way also. Basically speaking out of turn about an injury, now they regret it and it was stupid, but just saying he didn't leave on the best of terms either. Just not many know the history of it and it looks very poor over time, whereas Fedorov leaving really allowed us flexibility going into the cap era.

 

[newfy]

Kelly left in a far from great way also. Basically speaking out of turn about an injury, now they regret it and it was stupid, but just saying he didn't leave on the best of terms either. Just not many know the history of it and it looks very poor over time, whereas Fedorov leaving really allowed us flexibility going into the cap era.

Yeah but he did it at a time where the wings owner had just traded away the best team in the NHL because Ted was looking to start a players union so the players wouldnt keep getting bent over by the owners. Getting on the bad side of Jack Adams is different then making one of the best owners in sports dislike you.

Kelly admitted he was playing through an injury in the playoffs to the media and Adams got mad enough to ship him out for that. Completely different

 

[smurfyeah19]

I can't wait to see the #5 put up in the rafters

 

[barnztormre]

six seasons does not earn one a retired number.

Michel Briere played one year before his tragic death. I guess it depends on the organization.

 

[pdd]

Seriously disagree with that. I think because of the booing and other stuff people underrate Fedorov.

Red Kelly was the second most important player to the Wings after Gordie Howe in the 1940s-50s. There's a large gap between those two and Sawchuk, Abel, Lindsay, Delvecchio, etc.

Yeah but he did it at a time where the wings owner had just traded away the best team in the NHL because Ted was looking to start a players union so the players wouldnt keep getting bent over by the owners. Getting on the bad side of Jack Adams is different then making one of the best owners in sports dislike you.

Kelly admitted he was playing through an injury in the playoffs to the media and Adams got mad enough to ship him out for that. Completely different

Fedorov's crime was holding out in 1997, and being a good enough player that the just-moved Hurricanes and new owner Peter Karmanos wanted him to become their franchise centerpiece. Of course, Karmanos had tried to purchase the Red Wings from Mike Ilitch during the 1994-95 lockout. This ended with Karmanos' junior team, then the Detroit Jr. Red Wings, being evicted from the JLA (and renamed Whalers, as Karmanos would purchase the Hartford Whalers later in 1995).

He is absolutely the second-most-deserving player after Kelly. It is unlikely his number goes up while Mike Ilitch is alive, simply from Ilitch's bitterness over the whole situation (it is likely that had Fedorov signed with a different team, such as the Rangers, there would be no such bitterness or anger).

 

[Peter Tosh]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it so, that no goalie has had no 30 since Ozzy left? Might as well be a coinsidence, but if his 3 cups and 401 wins lands him in HHoF, I wouldn't be surprised if he gets his jersey retired

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I know but why not hang the banner? It's retired but why not honor the man by hanging it?


http://www.detroithockey.net/history/retired.php

Because he wasn't great enough, long enough.

And eventually, that jersey will be used again, IMO

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Original 6 players are so overrated.

It was easier to win a Norris when there are 36 defensemen in the entire NHL
It was easier to win the cup when there are 6 teams.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

It's what one does in one's career that matters. Konstantinov played with the organization for six seasons. He was an excellent defender, but six seasons does not earn one a retired number. The end of his career was tragic, yes, and it did motivate the team, yes, but that doesn't change anything as far as jersey retirement is concerned. It is, instead---and rightfully so---reflected in the exception of #16 from circulation.

Had Konstantinov had 6 Bobby Orr seasons, 16 would be retired.

Had Sergei played the rest of his career with the Wings without incident, he would very likely have earned himself the honor. In the event, he had a very unnecessary and acrimonious split with the organization, moved on, and was booed by the crowd whenever he played in the arena.

I wish he hadn't left, but he did, and at that point he was no longer a Red Wing. He doesn't measure up to the likes of Lidstrom and Yzerman.

He doesn't have to measure up to Lidstrom and Yzerman. He has to measure up to history. And Fedorov does that quite well.

 

[sureWhyNot]

Red Kelly is more deserving than Fedorov. People on here just are attached to him because they grew up watching him, Kelly was the greater wing

What in the good lords name are you talking about?

Here's a look at their respective careers, please look them over and then tell me Kelly is more deserving:

Red Kelly:

Total Games Played: 1,316
Goals: 281
Assists: 542
Points: 823

In 164 playoff games, he scored 33 goals and had 59 assists for a total of 92 points.

- 1 Hart Trophy Runner Up
- 1 Norris
- 3 Lady Byngs
- All-Star: 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955 and 1957.

--------------------

Sergei Federov:

Total Games Played: 1,248
Goals: 483
Assists: 696
Points: 1,179

In 183 playoff games, he scored 52 goals and had 124 assists for a total of 176 points

- 15th in all time playoff points (176 /0.962 ppt)
- 48th in all time goals (483)
- 54th in all time assists (696)
- 47th in all time points (1,179 / 0.945 ppt)
- 1 Hart Memorial Trophy (MVP)
- 2 Frank J. Selke Trophy (Best defensive forward)
- 1 Lester B. Pearson Award (Most outstanding player as selected by NHL - players).
- He finished second in scoring behind Los Angeles' Wayne Gretzky with 56 goals and 120 points.
- NHL first all star team - 1994
- NHL All-Star in 1992, 1994, 1996, 2001, 2002, 2003
- He is only the third player in NHL history to have four consecutive 20+ point playoffs, along with Mike Bossy and Bryan Trottier. He also led the entire NHL in Plus-minus in the 1990s with a +221.
- First Russian player to reach 1,000 NHL points
- Most goals by a Russian-born NHL player (483)


There is literally no way you can claim Kelly is more deserving, or anyone for that matter when it comes to who deserves to be in the rafters. Argument/opinions are fine to have, but please lets try to refrain them from being passed on as fact. We have numbers to determine that.

 

[jaster]

It was easier to win a Norris when there are 36 defensemen in the entire NHL

That would be true if every defenseman in the league began the season with equal skill. But alas, they do not. Make a top-36 list of today's NHL defensemen and then show me a guy not on that list who has a shot at the Norris. There aren't any. It was just as difficult to win the Norris back then as it is now.

Original 6 players are so overrated.

This I mostly agree with, though I have different reasons than you

 

[newfy]

What in the good lords name are you talking about?

Here's a look at their respective careers, please look them over and then tell me Kelly is more deserving:

Red Kelly:

Total Games Played: 1,316
Goals: 281
Assists: 542
Points: 823

In 164 playoff games, he scored 33 goals and had 59 assists for a total of 92 points.

- 1 Hart Trophy Runner Up
- 1 Norris
- 3 Lady Byngs
- All-Star: 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955 and 1957.

--------------------

Sergei Federov:

Total Games Played: 1,248
Goals: 483
Assists: 696
Points: 1,179

In 183 playoff games, he scored 52 goals and had 124 assists for a total of 176 points

- 15th in all time playoff points (176 /0.962 ppt)
- 48th in all time goals (483)
- 54th in all time assists (696)
- 47th in all time points (1,179 / 0.945 ppt)
- 1 Hart Memorial Trophy (MVP)
- 2 Frank J. Selke Trophy (Best defensive forward)
- 1 Lester B. Pearson Award (Most outstanding player as selected by NHL - players).
- He finished second in scoring behind Los Angeles' Wayne Gretzky with 56 goals and 120 points.
- NHL first all star team - 1994
- NHL All-Star in 1992, 1994, 1996, 2001, 2002, 2003
- He is only the third player in NHL history to have four consecutive 20+ point playoffs, along with Mike Bossy and Bryan Trottier. He also led the entire NHL in Plus-minus in the 1990s with a +221.
- First Russian player to reach 1,000 NHL points
- Most goals by a Russian-born NHL player (483)


There is literally no way you can claim Kelly is more deserving, or anyone for that matter when it comes to who deserves to be in the rafters. Argument/opinions are fine to have, but please lets try to refrain them from being passed on as fact. We have numbers to determine that.

Youre comparing a dman to a forward in completely different eras and you choose to use stats to compare them?

You do realize that the Norris trophy was basically created for Kelly? He was the undisputed number 1 dman in those all star selections and would have won those Norris trophies, thats why a trophy was created.

You also realize when youre pointing out those raw stats that Kelly played in an even lower scoring era than Fedorov and back then defensive scoring was lower than it ever was?

And just so your post is clarified, Fedorov played in the "All star game" but was not named to the NHL 1st all star team except 94 and was never named to the second team.

Kelly on the other hand was named to the NHL first team 6 times and to the second team twice. Those arent gimmicky all star games, those are voted on and actually mean something.

So you can look at their careers with perspective unlike you did in that post and tell me Fedorovs more deserving, I said its arguable but the edge is still to Kelly. If youre going to post about players of the past and compare being picked to the all star game as being voted to the NHL first or second team at the end of the season then maybe you should really read over what in the good lord I'm talking about because you'll learn something.

Kelly is considered somewhere around the 7th best dman of all time and a top 20ish player, he was a huge part of the wings greatest dynasty as well. Fedorov is probably considered for the top 100 players of all time because of his one amazing year. But that doesnt even bring into account that Fedorov left the way he did, thats just on ice accomplishments

 

[sureWhyNot]

Youre comparing a dman to a forward in completely different eras and you choose to use stats to compare them?

You do realize that the Norris trophy was basically created for Kelly? He was the undisputed number 1 dman in those all star selections and would have won those Norris trophies, thats why a trophy was created.

You also realize when youre pointing out those raw stats that Kelly played in an even lower scoring era than Fedorov and back then defensive scoring was lower than it ever was?

And just so your post is clarified, Fedorov played in the "All star game" but was not named to the NHL 1st all star team except 94 and was never named to the second team.

Kelly on the other hand was named to the NHL first team 6 times and to the second team twice. Those arent gimmicky all star games, those are voted on and actually mean something.

So you can look at their careers with perspective unlike you did in that post and tell me Fedorovs more deserving, I said its arguable but the edge is still to Kelly. If youre going to post about players of the past and compare being picked to the all star game as being voted to the NHL first or second team at the end of the season then maybe you should really read over what in the good lord I'm talking about because you'll learn something.

Kelly is considered somewhere around the 7th best dman of all time and a top 20ish player, he was a huge part of the wings greatest dynasty as well. Fedorov is probably considered for the top 100 players of all time because of his one amazing year. But that doesnt even bring into account that Fedorov left the way he did, thats just on ice accomplishments

Original six era was lower scoring then when Fedorov played?

Here's a comparison of goals per year between the two:

Red Kelly's time: 1947 (6.3), 1948 (5.8), 1949 (5.43), 1950 (5.47), 1951 (5.42), 1952 (5.2), 1953 (4.8), 1954 (5.1), 1955 (5.1), 1956 (5.4), 1957 (5.5), 1958 (5.6), 1959 (5.9), 1960 (6.00), 1961 (6.05), 1962 (6.02), 1963 (5.6), 1964 (5.8)

Sergei Fedorov's time: Here are the averages for the better part of Federov's career - 1990 (3.46), 1991 (3.48), 1992 (3.63), 1993 (3.24), 1994 (2.99), 1995 (3.14), 1996 (2.92), 1997 (2.64), 1998 (2.63), 1999 (2.75), 2000 (2.76), 2001 (2.62), 2002 (2.65), 2003 (2.57)

So I don't know what you are talking about when you say Kelly played in a lower scoring era. That's factually untrue.

In regards to the all-star argument, again, this is moot. There was 6 teams in the league when Kelly played, there was one and only one all-star team he could have made - back then they took the guys from the 5 teams who didn't win the cup as "all-stars" and had them play the champions from the year prior.

I am not saying Kelly was anything short of terrific, but to say he is ahead of Fedorov is a stretch by quite literally every existing measuring stick.

 

[nik jr]

Original six era was lower scoring then when Fedorov played?

Here's a comparison of goals per year between the two:

Red Kelly's time: 1947 (6.3), 1948 (5.8), 1949 (5.43), 1950 (5.47), 1951 (5.42), 1952 (5.2), 1953 (4.8), 1954 (5.1), 1955 (5.1), 1956 (5.4), 1957 (5.5), 1958 (5.6), 1959 (5.9), 1960 (6.00), 1961 (6.05), 1962 (6.02), 1963 (5.6), 1964 (5.8)

Sergei Fedorov's time: Here are the averages for the better part of Federov's career - 1990 (3.46), 1991 (3.48), 1992 (3.63), 1993 (3.24), 1994 (2.99), 1995 (3.14), 1996 (2.92), 1997 (2.64), 1998 (2.63), 1999 (2.75), 2000 (2.76), 2001 (2.62), 2002 (2.65), 2003 (2.57)

So I don't know what you are talking about when you say Kelly played in a lower scoring era. That's factually untrue.

In regards to the all-star argument, again, this is moot. There was 6 teams in the league when Kelly played, there was one and only one all-star team he could have made - back then they took the guys from the 5 teams who didn't win the cup as "all-stars" and had them play the champions from the year prior.

I am not saying Kelly was anything short of terrific, but to say he is ahead of Fedorov is a stretch by quite literally every existing measuring stick.

where did you get those numbers from '90-'03?

'90: 7.37
'91: 6.91
'92: 6.96
'93: 7.25
'94: 6.48
'95: 5.97
'96: 6.29
'97: 5.83
'98: 5.28
'99: 5.27
'00: 5.49
'01: 5.51
'02: 5.24
'03: 5.31

http://dropyourgloves.com/Stat/LeagueGoals.aspx

 

[Crymson]

Federov

At least learn to spell the guy's name correctly.

 

[Adityase]

I wonder if, when Fedorov suits up in the Winged Wheel again for the Winter Classic Alumni Game and is given a standing ovation by Wings fans if it will mean he's cleared the last hurdle to getting his number retired. I think it will just feel right after that.

 

[sureWhyNot]

where did you get those numbers from '90-'03?

'90: 7.37
'91: 6.91
'92: 6.96
'93: 7.25
'94: 6.48
'95: 5.97
'96: 6.29
'97: 5.83
'98: 5.28
'99: 5.27
'00: 5.49
'01: 5.51
'02: 5.24
'03: 5.31

http://dropyourgloves.com/Stat/LeagueGoals.aspx

That's bizarre. I just found those numbers too. My source was Sporting Charts: NHL Goals

"This is clearly seen in the chart above where the average goals per game tumbled by a goal per game from a high in '92-'93 of 3.63 to 2.64 in '97-'97, just five seasons. Goals per game hit a low of 2.57 in the '03-'04 season just before a lockout that would cancel a full season."

Also found this one. Hockey Reference: NHL League Averages

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Original six era was lower scoring then when Fedorov played?

Here's a comparison of goals per year between the two:

Red Kelly's time: 1947 (6.3), 1948 (5.8), 1949 (5.43), 1950 (5.47), 1951 (5.42), 1952 (5.2), 1953 (4.8), 1954 (5.1), 1955 (5.1), 1956 (5.4), 1957 (5.5), 1958 (5.6), 1959 (5.9), 1960 (6.00), 1961 (6.05), 1962 (6.02), 1963 (5.6), 1964 (5.8)

Sergei Fedorov's time: Here are the averages for the better part of Federov's career - 1990 (3.46), 1991 (3.48), 1992 (3.63), 1993 (3.24), 1994 (2.99), 1995 (3.14), 1996 (2.92), 1997 (2.64), 1998 (2.63), 1999 (2.75), 2000 (2.76), 2001 (2.62), 2002 (2.65), 2003 (2.57)

So I don't know what you are talking about when you say Kelly played in a lower scoring era. That's factually untrue.

In regards to the all-star argument, again, this is moot. There was 6 teams in the league when Kelly played, there was one and only one all-star team he could have made - back then they took the guys from the 5 teams who didn't win the cup as "all-stars" and had them play the champions from the year prior.

I am not saying Kelly was anything short of terrific, but to say he is ahead of Fedorov is a stretch by quite literally every existing measuring stick.

How many minutes a night did Kelly play?

I can't speak for Kelly's era, but I know that in the old days, top forwards routinely played 30 minutes a night
So I imagine the defense played a lot too.

Naturally, ice time will rise

 

[sureWhyNot]

At least learn to spell the guy's name correctly.

Gotcha. Thanks for your productive input.

 

[newfy]

Original six era was lower scoring then when Fedorov played?

Here's a comparison of goals per year between the two:

Red Kelly's time: 1947 (6.3), 1948 (5.8), 1949 (5.43), 1950 (5.47), 1951 (5.42), 1952 (5.2), 1953 (4.8), 1954 (5.1), 1955 (5.1), 1956 (5.4), 1957 (5.5), 1958 (5.6), 1959 (5.9), 1960 (6.00), 1961 (6.05), 1962 (6.02), 1963 (5.6), 1964 (5.8)

Sergei Fedorov's time: Here are the averages for the better part of Federov's career - 1990 (3.46), 1991 (3.48), 1992 (3.63), 1993 (3.24), 1994 (2.99), 1995 (3.14), 1996 (2.92), 1997 (2.64), 1998 (2.63), 1999 (2.75), 2000 (2.76), 2001 (2.62), 2002 (2.65), 2003 (2.57)

So I don't know what you are talking about when you say Kelly played in a lower scoring era. That's factually untrue.

In regards to the all-star argument, again, this is moot. There was 6 teams in the league when Kelly played, there was one and only one all-star team he could have made - back then they took the guys from the 5 teams who didn't win the cup as "all-stars" and had them play the champions from the year prior.

I am not saying Kelly was anything short of terrific, but to say he is ahead of Fedorov is a stretch by quite literally every existing measuring stick.

Those numbers arent right, once again check your facts.

I dont know what youre talking about in regards to the all star game because I'm talking about being voted to the first and second all star team which happens at the end of the season. This has been happening forever in the NHL and Fedorov has been voted to one while Kelly has been voted to the first team 6 and second team twice. All star games dont matter, those are a gimmick. The post season all star teams do actually matter and have a voting process and specific standards for selection.

Why dont you do a little research and then come back and post in a little while