Speculation: Is it time for Holland to step down?

[ricky0034]

That's kinda silly thinking, 29 other teams aren't good enough to win it all the majority of years.

there's a difference between not good enough in the sense that you didn't and not good enough in the sense that it wasn't even a realistic possibility to begin with though

I guess maybe I should have worded that as "aren't good enough to be a contender" or something

 

[Bench]

I guess maybe I should have worded that as "aren't good enough to be a contender" or something

There's also revenue, which teams do care about. Playoffs provide that.

And then there's the actual players on the team who believe they can win. From the sidelines, we might be counting the Wings out, but somehow I doubt Tatar, Nyquist, Smith, DeKeyser and company are so quick to give up.

 

[Heaton]

there's a difference between not good enough in the sense that you didn't and not good enough in the sense that it wasn't even a realistic possibility to begin with though

I guess maybe I should have worded that as "aren't good enough to be a contender" or something

Even so, while you don't build your team to be a darkhorse every year, there's plenty of times where teams who weren't 'contenders' went on runs.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Teams with bad defense and a horrible PK/PP don't go on runs. Parity doesn't mean bad teams can win in the playoffs.

The Wings 2nd/3rd defensive pairings are liabilities on the ice, and the 1st pairing isn't good enough to makeup for those deficiencies. You trot out Kyle Quincey for 20+ minutes a night and you are going to have a bad time. Holland knows this. It's why he didn't even bother giving us his usual canned response about the team making some noise next season if they are healthy. If they are healthy, they still end up giving too many easy goals and that is the kiss of death in the playoffs.

Wings need to cut back the # of games Z/Datsyuk play during the regular season. It's fairly obvious they can no longer handle the grind of an 82 game regular season. Datsyuk more so than Z.

Holland needs to stop building teams that are capable of making the playoffs. He needs to build a team that can win in the playoffs.

 

[Heaton]

Teams with bad defense and a horrible PK/PP don't go on runs. Parity doesn't mean bad teams can win in the playoffs.

The Wings 2nd/3rd defensive pairings are liabilities on the ice, and the 1st pairing isn't good enough to makeup for those deficiencies. You trot out Kyle Quincey for 20+ minutes a night and you are going to have a bad time. Holland knows this. It's why he didn't even bother giving us his usual canned response about the team making some noise next season if they are healthy. If they are healthy, they still end up giving too many easy goals and that is the kiss of death in the playoffs.

They basically did the year before last, though. Last season was a disaster, it's virtually impossible to get worse with this team and they still made the playoffs.

Your post is basically saying that none of the kids are going to get better, only worse.

 

[Chance on Chance]

They basically did the year before last, though. Last season was a disaster, it's virtually impossible to get worse with this team and they still made the playoffs.

Your post is basically saying that none of the kids are going to get better, only worse.

I'd say a run is conference finals. The other teams are saying the same about their kids too

 

[WingedWheel1987]

They basically did the year before last, though. Last season was a disaster, it's virtually impossible to get worse with this team and they still made the playoffs.

Your post is basically saying that none of the kids are going to get better, only worse.

There will be some improvement for sure. DD/Smith/Tatar/Nyquist will be better.

Unfortunately it's very unlikely the defense improves enough to change their fate.

Excluding the Kronwall pairing, Wings will have their 2nd/3rd pairings on the ice for 35ish minutes a game. We are going to see more of what we saw last year. A ton of unforced errors at the blue line and not enough puck support on offense by the defenseman.

I can see some small improvements happening, but the Wings will still be giving out a ton of minutes to marginal talent. That just isn't going to fly.

 

[Heaton]

There will be some improvement for sure. DD/Smith/Tatar/Nyquist will be better.

Unfortunately it's very unlikely the defense improves enough to change their fate.

Excluding the Kronwall pairing, Wings will have their 2nd/3rd pairings on the ice for 35ish minutes a game. We are going to see more of what we saw last year. A ton of unforced errors at the blue line and not enough puck support on offense by the defenseman.

I can see some small improvements happening, but the Wings will still be giving out a ton of minutes to marginal talent. That just isn't going to fly.

Small improvements just won't work, especially from Smith and DeKeyser. For the most part DeKeyser should be a stabilizing force on any pairing he's on and Smith should find some better consistency. Basically, if they don't improve by a considerable amount this year, I don't see much improvement the year after either.

Not to mention you have to expect Howard to bounce back after his worst season. This team has a lot of good pieces, which is why it was frustrating the way Holland handled the offseason. I know where you're coming from, but I don't see Quincey dragging down the defense that much, he just isn't an upgrade. The improvement on the defense didn't hinge on a UFA or trade, but how much it improved did.

 

[Crymson]

Good version Cleary is extinct. His type hasn't been seen on the ice since 2011. By the 2nd half of the 11-12 season it was a hot topic on here how much his game had deteriorated.

Agreed. I think there was, however, still some hope that he could return to form.

In 12-13 he was awful. Not bad, but awful. Statistically speaking (advanced stats combined) he was basically our worst forward yet was getting prime time minutes in the top 6 and on the PP. Every line that he played on was worse with him.

I wouldn't say awful. He was pretty bad, however.

Last season he was just as awful. And Babcock still gave him prime roles. Anything other than the press box was too good for how his game was. Babcock has come out since then and admitted that Cleary brought nothing. Yet he still spoon fed him valuable special teams time for the first half of last season as we're fighting for our playoff lives.

Last season he was worse than awful. Considerably worse. And Babcock's incredible favoritism for him, the worst player on the team, almost led me to stop watching games.

2+ years in a row he's been awful and yet he's given new contracts two years in a row.

Holland's fault.

How can we trust anything Holland or Babcock say? The fact that he got another contract is beyond ridiculous. A PTO at best would have been more than generous. No other player in the history of Ken Holland has received this type of treatment. And why in the world should be be so certain that Babcock, who was quoted last season saying that "there is no bigger fan of Dan Cleary", wouldn't be biased when it comes to Cleary's chances of seeing the ice? Are we just going to ignore everything that has happened in the past?

That biggest fan of Dan Cleary benched the guy for good after 52 games. This was, of course, about 42 games too late, but I think he recognized that Cleary was horrible, and I wouldn't be surprised were he embarrassed for going to bat for the guy when there were so many youngsters (particularly Nyquist) who were so vastly more effective.

I also believe that his recent comments could be about putting a good spin on matters. It's not like he can remain silent about the signing or outright denounce it. Babcock certainly still appreciates Cleary's work ethic and locker room performance, but he outright admitted that the guy was awful last season, and that was, whether intended or not, an implicit criticism of himself for keeping Cleary on the roster for so long.

The fact that we are even talking about him as a roster player in 14-15 is incomprehensible. It's absolutely ridiculous.

That much is true. Unless he comes to training camp a thoroughly changed player, him making the team will be a sign that the organization has gone literally insane.

 

[dtones520]

Small improvements just won't work, especially from Smith and DeKeyser. For the most part DeKeyser should be a stabilizing force on any pairing he's on and Smith should find some better consistency. Basically, if they don't improve by a considerable amount this year, I don't see much improvement the year after either.

Not to mention you have to expect Howard to bounce back after his worst season. This team has a lot of good pieces, which is why it was frustrating the way Holland handled the offseason. I know where you're coming from, but I don't see Quincey dragging down the defense that much, he just isn't an upgrade. The improvement on the defense didn't hinge on a UFA or trade, but how much it improved did.

If we get the Quincey who played in the second half of last year and in the playoffs it helps our defense. He was our second best defenseman during that period. Like it or not, that is 100% true. Now, granted, that was also because Dekeyser's play slipped a bit down the stretch, but even still Quincey was a good player for us to finish the year. So, if we get that Quincey and not the one we had before, would you still not call him a slight upgrade? Other than not being RH I don't see him as a worse player than Robidas or Strallman.

 

[Actual Thought*]

There will be some improvement for sure. DD/Smith/Tatar/Nyquist will be better.

Unfortunately it's very unlikely the defense improves enough to change their fate.

Excluding the Kronwall pairing, Wings will have their 2nd/3rd pairings on the ice for 35ish minutes a game. We are going to see more of what we saw last year. A ton of unforced errors at the blue line and not enough puck support on offense by the defenseman.

I can see some small improvements happening, but the Wings will still be giving out a ton of minutes to marginal talent. That just isn't going to fly.

Why is it unlikely? We have a bunch of young defenseman. If they were all 40 I would say its unlikely but they aren't. I would say it is very likely that the d is much improved. They are well coached, more experienced, and more physically/emotionally/mentally mature. It takes most young players a few years in the NHL to get going. It isn't a kid's league. D-men always take longer than forwards.
We are gonna be fine and you are gonna be eating a lot of crow dinners once the puck drops on the season.

 

[dtones520]

there's a difference between not good enough in the sense that you didn't and not good enough in the sense that it wasn't even a realistic possibility to begin with though

I guess maybe I should have worded that as "aren't good enough to be a contender" or something

No one thought the 2013 Wings we good enough to even make the playoffs, they did and then they took the eventual champs to a 3-1 deficit and were one shot away from winning game 7 and going to the conference finals. The 2012 Kings were the 8th seed and had no PP or Goal scoring going into the playoffs and made a great run to win the cup. We have been beat twice by low seeds who went on to win the Conference, one of whom was coached by our coach.

Hell, how many years have we gone to the playoffs as a legit contender or as the best team in the league and not made a run?

 

[dtones520]

That biggest fan of Dan Cleary benched the guy for good after 52 games. This was, of course, about 42 games too late, but I think he recognized that Cleary was horrible, and I wouldn't be surprised were he embarrassed for going to bat for the guy when there were so many youngsters (particularly Nyquist) who were so vastly more effective.

I also believe that his recent comments could be about putting a good spin on matters. It's not like he can remain silent about the signing or outright denounce it. Babcock certainly still appreciates Cleary's work ethic and locker room performance, but he outright admitted that the guy was awful last season, and that was, whether intended or not, an implicit criticism of himself for keeping Cleary on the roster for so long.



That much is true. Unless he comes to training camp a thoroughly changed player, him making the team will be a sign that the organization has gone literally insane.

Babcock was also part of the reason we brought Cleary back on a promise last year, if he would have been against bringing him back last year, I doubt Holland resigns him and makes him a stupid promise to bring him back this year. And if he made that promise, then good on him for sticking to it.

But I fully believe that they are going to look at him to prove that he is better than the young players on the team and if he doesn't out perform them during camp we have two options. Put him on LTIR and have a legit excuse to do so with his knees or waive him to GR and pay him the same money, as he is on a 1-way deal. Either way, it works out for us. As if Cleary is good enough to return to 2011 form or somewhere near there and be better than whomever he beats out, then fine we are a better team for it and if not he won't be on the team but will still get paid, which effects none of us.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I'm tired of this we took the champs to 7 games thing. 3 teams too LA to 7 games this year and lost so it doesnt matter. LA then lost to them 4-1 so does that mean were better then LA? We took Chicago to 7 and then lost in 5 this year.



And if he's your 2nd best D you wont be going far

I think you are missing the point he was trying to make. His point was while nobody considers a 7th or 8th seed a contender, they can and have made noise in the playoffs.

The problem is whether you rest on that fact and become complacent or hope for improvement regardless.

 

[Actual Thought*]

I'm tired of this we took the champs to 7 games thing. 3 teams too LA to 7 games this year and lost so it doesnt matter. LA then lost to them 4-1 so does that mean were better then LA? We took Chicago to 7 and then lost in 5 this year.



And if he's your 2nd best D you wont be going far

It's called parity and it plagues the NHL. No team is really that much better than any other. Any team in the NHL is a hot goaltender away. Almost any roster in the NHL that can muster 16 disciplined games, and gets goaltending for 16 games, can win the cup.
The Wings culture is structure and discipline. This is why I don't want Holland going anywhere. A new GM likely means a whole new front office. I would think it silly to gut the winning culture out of the franchise. Structure, patience, discipline, and drafting win in cap leagues. We have a GM and coach that exhibit all of these traits.

 

[Chance on Chance]

I think you are missing the point he was trying to make. His point was while nobody considers a 7th or 8th seed a contender, they can and have made noise in the playoffs.

The problem is whether you rest on that fact and become complacent or hope for improvement regardless.

I get what he was saying and it happens every year, I was going on more the fact that people are acting the wings are contenders and just missing a piece because we too the champs to 7 games.

The 8th seed with one more win could be the 4th or 5th seed nowadays. I'd say were not exactly built like a low seed team that can surprise, we're more based on skill and the higher seeds have more of that

 

[ComradeChris]

Should Holland be fired? Some questions to be answered first.

When did he sign his last contract? What has he done since his last contract? Is the team better or worse in comparison to his current contract vs. old contract?

 

[Frk It]

I think you are missing the point he was trying to make. His point was while nobody considers a 7th or 8th seed a contender, they can and have made noise in the playoffs.

The problem is whether you rest on that fact and become complacent or hope for improvement regardless.

That's deceiving.

Those teams that did noise as 7 and 8 seeds are the teams that are powerhouses now. It's not a coincidence. They just were young and on the come up.

To expect the same for us, when we are on the other side of the bell curve, isn't realistic. Not all 7 and 8 seeds are equals.

Young Hawks and Kings team are not like this old Wings team.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

I wouldn't say awful. He was pretty bad, however.

No he was awful. The fact that Nyquist got sent to the AHL last season wasn't the biggest reason why I was so furious about Cleary getting re-signed (to what we thought was a 1 yr deal, but as we've since found out was secretly a 2 yr deal) is because of how bad he was in 12-13 and that his game was rapidly declining and we had a coach that played him like he was still in his prime.

Cleary was the definition of awful in 12-13:

- his 0.80 points/60 was the lowest among forward on the team

- his 1.50 GF/60 was by far the worst among guys who seen top 6 time and only the members of the 4th line were on the ice for goals for at a lesser rate. The difference is that Cleary wasn't playing with 4th liners like Emmerton and Tootoo who aren't even NHL regular anymore. Cleary was getting ice time with players like Datsyuk or Zetterberg

- his GA/60 was only better than Brunner, a 1st year North American known as a skill player and not his overall game

- his 1.7/0.9 penalties taken/penalties drawn ratio was by far the worst on the team. In fact, his 1.7 penalties taken was tied for the 8th worst in the entire NHL. Guys who were worse than him were guys like Orr, Konopka, and Bordeleau who are obviously enforcing type guys

Statistically when you take everything into consideration, Cleary was our worst player in 12-13. He wasn't bad, he was awful. And yet Mike Babcock recently stated in an interview "how valuable Cleary was in 12-13."

The team scored scored less goals, got scored on more, and ended up penalized more when Dan Cleary hit the ice. And this despite the fact that he was spoon fed prime minutes which he deserved no part of.

And somehow he turned that into a 2 year deal.

So now you see why I've been preaching how stupid it was for him to be brought back last season let alone this season.

Everything about this situation makes me as mad as I've ever been when it comes to the Red Wings. There are no words to describe my anger, frustration, and complete lack of understanding of how a professional GM could allow this to happen. It's unacceptable.

 

[jkutswings]

We are gonna be fine and you are gonna be eating a lot of crow dinners once the puck drops on the season.

Define "fine".

If it's just making the playoffs, only to be soundly defeated by any legit contender, then sure, the Wings will continue to be fine.

If it means making at least the 3rd round, then name your wager, and I'll be eager to make some easy money.

This roster is still at least two players away from contending, let alone winning it all.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

That's deceiving.

Those teams that did noise as 7 and 8 seeds are the teams that are powerhouses now. It's not a coincidence. They just were young and on the come up.

To expect the same for us, when we are on the other side of the bell curve, isn't realistic. Not all 7 and 8 seeds are equals.

Young Hawks and Kings team are not like this old Wings team.

I think any 8th or 7th seed can do damage in any given year. There are plenty of examples of those kind of teams that didn't become powerhouses and still did damage (actually what team other than LA became a powerhouse after having a great year as a 7th or 8th seed?).

Please do not misinterpret me, however. I am not saying that is an intelligent means of going into the season or playoffs. It is more likely for a team to do damage if they are one of the higher seeds, and the Wings should be shooting to be at minimum a division winner, not just a playoff team.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Define "fine".

If it's just making the playoffs, only to be soundly defeated by any legit contender, then sure, the Wings will continue to be fine.

If it means making at least the 3rd round, then name your wager, and I'll be eager to make some easy money.

This roster is still at least two players away from contending, let alone winning it all.

It is possible that they stay healthy this year. If that happens they could contend right now. The games have yet to be played. You don't know anymore than I do. Who is gonna be healthy? Who is gonna take a step forward? Who is gonna take a step back? You don't know.

 

[Henkka]

Has anyone changed their minds?

Don't have to. I've been trusting Kenny all the time.

he could retire after our next Cup.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I thought this might be fun to revisit. It seems that the vast majority here wanted Holland to step down.

Has anyone changed their minds?

Can you explain to me what exactly has changed since July to warrant this bump?

We haven't gotten any more playoff wins. The team isn't running away with the conference or the league. Most people still hold the opinion that defensively we can be exposed and possibly will be exposed in the playoffs.

Please explain it to me, because I don't understand your reasoning here.

 

[Frk It]

I thought this might be fun to revisit. It seems that the vast majority here wanted Holland to step down.

Has anyone changed their minds?

I am very encouraged with the success we have experienced so far this year, but I would like to see what we do in the play-offs and off-season before I answer your question.