Speculation: Is it time for Holland to step down?

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Crymson

Fire Holland
May 23, 2010
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The exact same lies you hear him say every off-season.

Parity
Cleary is a leader in the locker room
Talks about youth movement and how much he is pushing for it.

I can't believe i am going to have to spend another year complaining about the exact same things.

I normally find you very pessimistic, but this is very accurate. He went back to the washed-out veterans last season after the excellent showing by the youngsters in 2013, and I have no faith that he won't do the exact same thing again. It's fortunate that Bertuzzi and Samuelsson are gone, as that's two less veterans for him to coddle and drool over, but it's entirely possible that Cleary will make the team on his "intangibles."

That said, Malik was of the opinion that Holland was simply unwilling to admit that he signed Cleary because of a promise.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
40,957
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I normally find you very pessimistic, but this is very accurate. He went back to the washed-out veterans last season after the excellent showing by the youngsters in 2013, and I have no faith that he won't do the exact same thing again. It's fortunate that Bertuzzi and Samuelsson are gone, as that's two less veterans for him to coddle and drool over, but it's entirely possible that Cleary will make the team on his "intangibles."

That said, Malik was of the opinion that Holland was simply unwilling to admit that he signed Cleary because of a promise.

He is basically saying it in the only way that doesn't turn the NHL at least unhappy about it. Hey we said we would get something done and we did, promise goes into the did they talk numbers, did they cap circumvent area? His words are placed to avoid that, even if the NHL really set a precedent by letting that slide with Alfie, but my guess is a memo went out from both the NHL and NHLPA about hey lets be careful how we talk about this.

I don't like that they did it, but it isn't hard to see why they are wording it the way they are, both Holland and Babcock have put it right on the edge of where expounding on it isn't all that necessary and likely would draw the ire of the league. Cleary has likely been advised similarly to not speak out of turn on it and will be bland in his explanation as well when camp rolls around.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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He is basically saying it in the only way that doesn't turn the NHL at least unhappy about it. Hey we said we would get something done and we did, promise goes into the did they talk numbers, did they cap circumvent area? His words are placed to avoid that, even if the NHL really set a precedent by letting that slide with Alfie, but my guess is a memo went out from both the NHL and NHLPA about hey lets be careful how we talk about this.

I don't like that they did it, but it isn't hard to see why they are wording it the way they are, both Holland and Babcock have put it right on the edge of where expounding on it isn't all that necessary and likely would draw the ire of the league. Cleary has likely been advised similarly to not speak out of turn on it and will be bland in his explanation as well when camp rolls around.

The NHL should go on a witch hunt and nix that contract, damnit.

I mean it is publicly circumventing the cap, shouldn't be that hard to crack down.

Maybe I will write a letter lol.
 

WingedWheel1987

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
13,315
897
GPP Michigan
The NHL should go on a witch hunt and nix that contract, damnit.

I mean it is publicly circumventing the cap, shouldn't be that hard to crack down.

Maybe I will write a letter lol.

I tweeted the NHL about it, and told them to veto the signing because it violated the CBA.
 

silkyjohnson50

Registered User
Jan 10, 2007
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He kind of pointed out that Cleary was signed for a leadership role. "We need people who can speak and lead with an example, on and off the ice. And who will want to be at Detroit."

On the ice, ha. How can anyone take his on the ice message serious when he is the worst player on the ice.

We should have offered Yzerman or Draper a contract instead.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
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I liked the part where Holland said the Wings haven't lost out on anybody because of the "coach, the city, the manager..."

I don't really have a point, it was just entertaining to hear him give himself a free pass.
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
31,077
12,078
Tampere, Finland
Worst player at last season, yeah, but what if he will get his knees working at this season? That should be the whole starting point for next season discussion.

If he won't get his legs going, he won't be on the roster. Didn't Babcock said that already when he was signed?

I just can't see bad-knee Cleary hitting on-ice. Good knee version is a different story but we don't know the situation until the training camp.
 

silkyjohnson50

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Jan 10, 2007
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Good version Cleary is extinct. His type hasn't been seen on the ice since 2011. By the 2nd half of the 11-12 season it was a hot topic on here how much his game had deteriorated. One of our respected posters SoupNazi started a thread about buying him out back then.

In 12-13 he was awful. Not bad, but awful. Statistically speaking (advanced stats combined) he was basically our worst forward yet was getting prime time minutes in the top 6 and on the PP. Every line that he played on was worse with him.

Last season he was just as awful. And Babcock still gave him prime roles. Anything other than the press box was too good for how his game was. Babcock has come out since then and admitted that Cleary brought nothing. Yet he still spoon fed him valuable special teams time for the first half of last season as we're fighting for our playoff lives.

2+ years in a row he's been awful and yet he's given new contracts two years in a row.

How can we trust anything Holland or Babcock say? The fact that he got another contract is beyond ridiculous. A PTO at best would have been more than generous. No other player in the history of Ken Holland has received this type of treatment. And why in the world should be be so certain that Babcock, who was quoted last season saying that "there is no bigger fan of Dan Cleary", wouldn't be biased when it comes to Cleary's chances of seeing the ice? Are we just going to ignore everything that has happened in the past?

The fact that we are even talking about him as a roster player in 14-15 is incomprehensible. It's absolutely ridiculous.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
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Mark my words Holland will get another 5 years.

He's safe until the wheels come completely off. He's got more goodwill stored up than any GM in the league. They keep making the playoffs and they keep drafting well, so I don't think we're all that close to wheels flying off.
 

Number1RedWingsFan52

Registered User
Mar 17, 2013
40,243
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He's safe until the wheels come completely off. He's got more goodwill stored up than any GM in the league. They keep making the playoffs and they keep drafting well, so I don't think we're all that close to wheels flying off.

Exactly Bench, As long as we continue to make the playoffs and draft well. The Illitch family will be happy and that's all that matters.
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
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Good version Cleary is extinct. His type hasn't been seen on the ice since 2011. By the 2nd half of the 11-12 season it was a hot topic on here how much his game had deteriorated. One of our respected posters SoupNazi started a thread about buying him out back then.

In 12-13 he was awful. Not bad, but awful. Statistically speaking (advanced stats combined) he was basically our worst forward yet was getting prime time minutes in the top 6 and on the PP. Every line that he played on was worse with him.

Last season he was just as awful. And Babcock still gave him prime roles. Anything other than the press box was too good for how his game was. Babcock has come out since then and admitted that Cleary brought nothing. Yet he still spoon fed him valuable special teams time for the first half of last season as we're fighting for our playoff lives.

2+ years in a row he's been awful and yet he's given new contracts two years in a row.

How can we trust anything Holland or Babcock say? The fact that he got another contract is beyond ridiculous. A PTO at best would have been more than generous. No other player in the history of Ken Holland has received this type of treatment. And why in the world should be be so certain that Babcock, who was quoted last season saying that "there is no bigger fan of Dan Cleary", wouldn't be biased when it comes to Cleary's chances of seeing the ice? Are we just going to ignore everything that has happened in the past?

The fact that we are even talking about him as a roster player in 14-15 is incomprehensible. It's absolutely ridiculous.

You still are ignoring that off-ice effect our management sees in Cleary. He was signed to be a team leader. They see these veterans important for the perfect youth movement. They will mentor kids to have a better next Red Wings generation.

There is just more than those on-ice efforts in a hockey franchise in our management believes.

But they also give on-ice chance for Cleary to bounce back, but nothing isn't guaranteed anymore.
 
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silkyjohnson50

Registered User
Jan 10, 2007
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You still are ignoring that off-ice effect our management sees in Cleary. He was signed to be a team leader. They see these veterans important for the perfect youth movement. They will mentor to be a better next Red Wings generation.

There is just more than those on-ice efforts in a hockey franchise in our management believes.

But they also give on-ice chance for Cleary to bounce back, but nothing isn't guaranteed anymore.

Then hire him as an assistant or something.

You don't spend millions and take a roster spot for a player that is that bad because he's a good leader.

The whole "we need him as leader" crap is such a slap in the face to Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Kronwall, likely Alfredsson, and such.

Holland made a dirty deal and now we're stuck with another year of talking about Cleary. It's not about leadership this season. It's about Holland keeping a promise. A promise that is absolutely inexcusable.
 

silkyjohnson50

Registered User
Jan 10, 2007
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Last year at this time Cleary was only going to be offered a PTO. Magically that turned into a 2 year deal.

There's no reason to attempt to spin it in any positive way. You can't. It was garbage. Holland should get all of the hate he gets for this particular move.
 

Jyrgen

Registered User
Oct 10, 2005
223
2
Sorry, but without details anyone can say they heard anything.

come on..I can't name players and their agents. Thats an impossible request...

I'm not saying its a sure thing, have no clue if its just bs or not.

But there are some frustration regarding the last off seasons and both myself and most fans here thought the Wings would have signed better players the last 2 years..

They have made good offers and some players have been rumoured to be a done deal to wings and then nothing has happened, same goes for some trades (that is being discussed here as well).

So..I dont know, it was a question to you guys... if anyone knows about something regarding Babcock.
 

Jyrgen

Registered User
Oct 10, 2005
223
2
as far as to the details..

one player had a good offer from the wings this year but took less money elsewhere.

He was advised to stay away from the wings. He had no problems playing for wings, great team, style of play, always contending etc..but the agent told him they will keep having problems signing players.

He asked team mates and other players he knows well and got the same message (from the ones who had an opinion) .. their agents said the same thing. The rumor says that players dont wanna sign there.
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
31,077
12,078
Tampere, Finland
Then hire him as an assistant or something.

You don't spend millions and take a roster spot for a player that is that bad because he's a good leader.

Again and again, he is a good leader in the lockerroom, AND they believe he can bounce back with healthy knees. So there's the off-ice value and optimistic on-ice value on the board what Cleary could offer. It could be a failure, if he can't get his knees going, but then he is benched again and kids will play. What an end of the world.

You are still writing him off based on your mutual "fact" that you know for 100% sure Cleary is done and can never help this team again. Our organization thinks it othervise and it's just funny how some outsider can believe knowing things better at this kind of messageboard than the guys in our lockerroom/front office.
 

dtones520

Registered User
Jun 10, 2008
3,097
0
Midland, MI
Exactly Bench, As long as we continue to make the playoffs and draft well. The Illitch family will be happy and that's all that matters.

Aren't making the playoffs and drafting well two of the main things you want from your GM? If you are making the playoffs and drafting well you are going to have a streak where you are a contender and if you are drafting well and have good young prospects to trade you can further make yourself a contender.

We were a legit contender for the cup for nearly 20 seasons, at some point the league is going to catch up with you. Especially when the league puts a system in place, with its CBA, to directly combat how you build a team and to create more parity in the league. So, at some point you are going to have to stop trading your first round picks and top prospects, at some point the salary cap is going to inhibit how many of your desired free agents you can sign, at some point the parity in the league is going to make trading for and signing top players every year more difficult with more teams being in the hunt. Unfortunately, we are at that point now and we are working our way through it.

For as much crap as Holland gets here, and some of it is deserved but most isn't, we are still in a good position going forward to remain competitive while we right the ship. By drawing a line in the sand with trades, in refusing to give up top prospects+our first round pick, we have been able to keep all of our young talent and take advantage of our highest draft picks in over 20 years. And for a guy who has consistently done one thing right, which is draft well, that is a big deal. He has also over the past 5 or so seasons acquired more picks in the first two rounds than he has traded away. So, while we have missed out on some free agents over the past few years, only one of them has truly been a game changer and because of our lack of action, we have a lot of pieces to trade that are NHL ready. Which means we can be a player in trades for a high level player at some point this year. So with a team that, when healthy, is still a top 5-8 team in the East, knowing we have the assets to trade is a big deal.

We could be in a lot worse position than we are if we had any other GM running this team, so while Holland has been far from perfect, he has not crippled this organization going forward. Not even close.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
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Aren't making the playoffs and drafting well two of the main things you want from your GM?

Yes, but here's the critiques you'll face in response to that.

1) It was Nill, Hakan, and others that drafted well.
2) The team only makes the playoffs because of Datsyuk and Zetterberg.
3) Making the playoffs isn't a huge accomplishment when half the teams do.

Some of that is true, some of it isn't.
 

benusmc

Registered User
Feb 11, 2008
2,643
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Again and again, he is a good leader in the lockerroom, AND they believe he can bounce back with healthy knees. So there's the off-ice value and optimistic on-ice value on the board what Cleary could offer. It could be a failure, if he can't get his knees going, but then he is benched again and kids will play. What an end of the world.

You are still writing him off based on your mutual "fact" that you know for 100% sure Cleary is done and can never help this team again. Our organization thinks it othervise and it's just funny how some outsider can believe knowing things better at this kind of messageboard than the guys in our lockerroom/front office.

We have enough "good" guys in the locker room. I find it more pathetic, they offer this man a contract at a rate nobody was close to matching and from the sounds of it are already trying to make excuses for when he fails, and he will fail. "If he's healthy he should really help". Who the **** signs someone to anything more than a try out contract when they don't even know if the player is %100. Especially for a depth player on an AHL team of all players.
 

benusmc

Registered User
Feb 11, 2008
2,643
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Again and again, he is a good leader in the lockerroom, AND they believe he can bounce back with healthy knees. So there's the off-ice value and optimistic on-ice value on the board what Cleary could offer. It could be a failure, if he can't get his knees going, but then he is benched again and kids will play. What an end of the world.

You are still writing him off based on your mutual "fact" that you know for 100% sure Cleary is done and can never help this team again. Our organization thinks it othervise and it's just funny how some outsider can believe knowing things better at this kind of messageboard than the guys in our lockerroom/front office.

Lost 1st round in 5 games

Regular season: 52 games, 8 points
Playoffs: 0-0-0
yep the org. sure showed us stupid fans we were wrong
 

ricky0034

Registered User
Jun 8, 2010
14,863
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Aren't making the playoffs and drafting well two of the main things you want from your GM?

what good is drafting well if you're too afraid to play the prospects? what good is making the Playoffs if you aren't good enough to win it all?

drafting well and making the Playoffs are just a means to an end,it's the next step where Holland falls apart
 

Heaton

Moderator
Feb 13, 2004
22,548
925
Auburn Hills
what good is drafting well if you're too afraid to play the prospects? what good is making the Playoffs if you aren't good enough to win it all?

drafting well and making the Playoffs are just a means to an end,it's the next step where Holland falls apart

That's kinda silly thinking, 29 other teams aren't good enough to win it all the majority of years.
 
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