Is it possible the evolution of equipment has made the game more skilled and less talented at the exact same time?

[blundluntman]

I don't say this to be contrarian or edgy by any means; just a curious topic I think is worth discussing. As nearly all of us are willing to admit, the game today is likely more skilled than it's ever been. Players look faster and more skilled with a better shot arsenal; goaltenders also appear more athletic and technically sound. While some would argue this is because of the evolution of athletes and a greater pool in talent, I'd argue that the increase in skill/speed is a result of better equipment. If you compare the skates, pads, and composite sticks of today to those of the past, it's easy to see how much of a difference that makes. While some would say this has made the game better, is it also possible it's potentially resulted in a decrease in the overall talent pool?

Just hear me out, if you've never gone online and tried to purchase equipment such as skates, sticks and pads, you'd likely be pretty shocked at how expensive things are. I've seen wooden sticks online for as low as $40 while also seeing composite sticks for as much as $300. I've seen some pretty cheap older skates around the $50 range while seeing current skates go for $300. Although the prices may not be completely accurate, you can see where I'm going here. The sport has arguably priced out a decent percentage of the population from participating/developing at the same level of those from a higher class background. This is especially true when you factor in how much it is to rent ice time at a local facility or hire a skills trainer. Many cite this as a reason the game isn't as popular as cheaper sports like soccer or basketball. It makes me wonder how many kids from lower-class backgrounds with as much talent as the all time greats can't afford to play the game and decide to focus on something else.

TLDR: This isn't a post meant to argue that "the previous generation was more talented than today", more of a post meant to make you ask yourself "What if the next Gretzky can't even afford to play hockey anymore"? Even if you do believe that Crosby/McDavid are better than Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr/Howe, do you think it's possible there's a guy out there better than all 6 who can't afford to play?

I'm just thinking out loud here and any input is more than welcome.

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[Three On Zero]

Short answer: yes.

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

The modern speed and accuracy of wrist shots does not happen without composite sticks. Really changed offenses.

 

[miscs75]

The modern speed and accuracy of wrist shots does not happen without composite sticks. Really changed offenses.

Shooting technique is completely different with the composite sticks. Watch how Matthews shoots vs a guy like Ovi. They load sticks up completely different.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Quite simply, yes.

Drafting and promotion of talent is a sort of natural selection. The players who rise to the top are the ones who keep moving up the ladder when others are filtered out for one reason or other.

At one time, hockey equipment was very simple and near-universal in hockey playing areas. Every kid could get his hands on a used stick and skates, which in most cases was not fundamentally different than the newest model. Neighborhood rinks and colder weather made public ice easy to find in most of Canada and the northern USA. The top talent were the kids with natural talent who were also willing to put in long hours on the ice.

Today’s equipment is over-engineered to eliminate a huge amount of the “work” that a player used to have to do. It’s all outrageously expensive to the point of being cost prohibitive for many families. Ice time has become privatized and expensive. Private coaching has become a necessity for youth who are serious about making a go of it. The top talent today are the kids whose families can afford the equipment, the ice time, and the coaching/scouting advantages that money can buy. Natural talent has fallen behind wealth as a factor in determining who rises to the top.

As a sort of natural-selection process, what you get at the top level is increasingly a pool of players who weren’t necessarily the most naturally talented, but were given the opportunity to use the best equipment on the greatest amount of ice time with the most elite coaching and best opportunities for exposure. You get higher-skilled players, but not necessarily the best possible players.

As an analogy — give me a calculator and a few years of personal tutoring by a top physicist, and I’ll blow past Isaac Newton’s mathematical abilities. That doesn’t make me the more brilliant talent.

 

[Chips]

Better training and diets, and a much bigger pool to pick players from has certainly made the game more talented. The talent gap on average from top to bottom of most teams has shrunk a lot over decades.


I’m not sure how gear would make stuff less talented. There’s less space maybe, I’d think given a lot of defense is anticipation and positioning rather than just reacting and chasing, the skates help defenders more (which is basically every player on the roster expected now)


On the one hand stick flex makes shots harder… on the other hand you have way less time and space to do anything and don’t have time to wind up slap shots and such.


Any other different would be mitigated by the talent gap change, change in goalie size (and pad size and weight) and a bunch of other stuff.



The games more talented than ever, they’re even having IQ coaches now the last few years. You should read about how Matthews trains his shot to change his release every summer.

Edit I should have expanded your post when reading lol

The cost hindrance probably does hurt but I think the growth of the game should have at least offset it if not still outpaced it. Also, any Europeans in here: isn’t it cheaper somewhat in some other countries

 

[Dirty Dan]

Shooting technique is completely different with the composite sticks. Watch how Matthews shoots vs a guy like Ovi. They load sticks up completely different.

Thats because they use opposite hands. You should be able to load it either way but Matthews is a lefty whos right handed so his is actually a more tradional wrist shot just with a drag

 

[wintersej]

The modern speed and accuracy of wrist shots does not happen without composite sticks. Really changed offenses.

A good counter to goalie equipment no longer being a the weight of medieval mail.

 

[miscs75]

Thats because they use opposite hands. You should be able to load it either way but Matthews is a lefty whos right handed so his is actually a more tradional wrist shot just with a drag

Watch his hand distance on the shot. Older players honestly shoot with hands further apart compared to younger players. Even go as far as looking how Bedard shoots compared to the big name guys who grew up playing with wood sticks. Different element all together.

 

[blue425]

Tech moves lots of things. Why not hockey?

 

[Toby91ca]

I don't say this to be contrarian or edgy by any means; just a curious topic I think is worth discussing. As nearly all of us are willing to admit, the game today is likely more skilled than it's ever been. Players look faster and more skilled with a better shot arsenal; goaltenders also appear more athletic and technically sound. While some would argue this is because of the evolution of athletes and a greater pool in talent, I'd argue that the increase in skill/speed is a result of better equipment. If you compare the skates, pads, and composite sticks of today to those of the past, it's easy to see how much of a difference that makes. While some would say this has made the game better, is it also possible it's potentially resulted in a decrease in the overall talent pool?

Just hear me out, if you've never gone online and tried to purchase equipment such as skates, sticks and pads, you'd likely be pretty shocked at how expensive things are. I've seen wooden sticks online for as low as $40 while also seeing composite sticks for as much as $300. I've seen some pretty cheap older skates around the $50 range while seeing current skates go for $300. Although the prices may not be completely accurate, you can see where I'm going here. The sport has arguably priced out a decent percentage of the population from participating/developing at the same level of those from a higher class background. This is especially true when you factor in how much it is to rent ice time at a local facility or hire a skills trainer. Many cite this as a reason the game isn't as popular as cheaper sports like soccer or basketball. It makes me wonder how many kids from lower-class backgrounds with as much talent as the all time greats can't afford to play the game and decide to focus on something else.

TLDR: This isn't a post meant to argue that "the previous generation was more talented than today", more of a post meant to make you ask yourself "What if the next Gretzky can't even afford to play hockey anymore"? Even if you do believe that Crosby/McDavid are better than Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr/Howe, do you think it's possible there's a guy out there better than all 6 who can't afford to play?

I'm just thinking out loud here and any input is more than welcome.

It's an interesting theory, one that no one will ever know though.....it's possible. That said, I have heard of stories of guys being so good, but can't afford to play where others foot the bill for them.

I know you mention the prices you quote as not necessarily being completing accurate, but commenting just because the pricing is actually significantly more than you suggest. Not sure if you are in the US or Canada, but directionally it isn't going to make a big difference. My son is 14 and is just about to outgrow his intermediate size stick (same size as senior basically, just lengths get longer and flex goes higher)....his stick was $379.99 + tax, senior sticks are $399.99 + tax. For skates, it's crazy how expensive they get. I was getting my skates sharpened at a place that sells used sports equipment and while I was waiting I was looking at skates to kill time and also because my son was needing new skates soon.....I saw a pair he'd like, they were intermediate again, so not full senior pricing and they were $800 for "used" skates. I generally get him nice enough skates, not bottom of the line and not top of the line, but $300 is super, super low, that's like past years' models and not top of the line type skates type thing. Generally, they range from $500 - $1,300.

I'm thankful my kid isn't a goalie though, friend of mine just paid $2,400 just for goalie pads, then its $500-700 for glove, another $500 for blocker, $500-800 for chest protector, $300-500 for pants, $500-$1,000 for skates, $300-400 for stick, $500-$1,000 for a mask and some would then get it painted. Then there are various accessories like knee pads, etc. Think about all that for a kid that might outgrow everything every season. A lot may get more than one season out of the equipment, buy some of it used and sell some back, but it's still a lot of money. Goalie parent did tell me they were able to sell the pads for about 50% of what they paid brand new.

 

[Team_Spirit]

There is no heir to the goalie position in Canada for that reason

It got too expensive for the average family, talent pool is the 500 rich kids that could afford elite training. Equipment is the easy part.

 

[blundluntman]

It's an interesting theory, one that no one will ever know though.....it's possible. That said, I have heard of stories of guys being so good, but can't afford to play where others foot the bill for them.

I know you mention the prices you quote as not necessarily being completing accurate, but commenting just because the pricing is actually significantly more than you suggest. Not sure if you are in the US or Canada, but directionally it isn't going to make a big difference. My son is 14 and is just about to outgrow his intermediate size stick (same size as senior basically, just lengths get longer and flex goes higher)....his stick was $379.99 + tax, senior sticks are $399.99 + tax. For skates, it's crazy how expensive they get. I was getting my skates sharpened at a place that sells used sports equipment and while I was waiting I was looking at skates to kill time and also because my son was needing new skates soon.....I saw a pair he'd like, they were intermediate again, so not full senior pricing and they were $800 for "used" skates. I generally get him nice enough skates, not bottom of the line and not top of the line, but $300 is super, super low, that's like past years' models and not top of the line type skates type thing. Generally, they range from $500 - $1,300.

I'm thankful my kid isn't a goalie though, friend of mine just paid $2,400 just for goalie pads, then its $500-700 for glove, another $500 for blocker, $500-800 for chest protector, $300-500 for pants, $500-$1,000 for skates, $300-400 for stick, $500-$1,000 for a mask and some would then get it painted. Then there are various accessories like knee pads, etc. Think about all that for a kid that might outgrow everything every season. A lot may get more than one season out of the equipment, buy some of it used and sell some back, but it's still a lot of money. Goalie parent did tell me they were able to sell the pads for about 50% of what they paid brand new.

Oh wow, I didn't realize it was that expensive for skaters as well. I've never really tried to buy skates/sticks for a forward/dman so that's pretty surprising.

And yeah its honestly crazy how expensive goalie gear is as well. I'm looking to buy some used pads bc I wanna join a beer league this year and even the old and used equipment is 1500+ for non competitive play. I can't imagine being a parent/kid in this age and wanting to play competitively. Especially when you consider they'll grow out of their equipment as they get older like you said. I'd like to think eventually we'll find cheaper material to make equipment and the prices will go down but who knows.

 

[blundluntman]

Better training and diets, and a much bigger pool to pick players from has certainly made the game more talented. The talent gap on average from top to bottom of most teams has shrunk a lot over decades.


I’m not sure how gear would make stuff less talented. There’s less space maybe, I’d think given a lot of defense is anticipation and positioning rather than just reacting and chasing, the skates help defenders more (which is basically every player on the roster expected now)


On the one hand stick flex makes shots harder… on the other hand you have way less time and space to do anything and don’t have time to wind up slap shots and such.


Any other different would be mitigated by the talent gap change, change in goalie size (and pad size and weight) and a bunch of other stuff.



The games more talented than ever, they’re even having IQ coaches now the last few years. You should read about how Matthews trains his shot to change his release every summer.

Edit I should have expanded your post when reading lol

The cost hindrance probably does hurt but I think the growth of the game should have at least offset it if not still outpaced it. Also, any Europeans in here: isn’t it cheaper somewhat in some other countries

Yeah I do think the skill level is still higher on average than in previous generations but I just wonder if there aren't freaks of nature out there capable of doing even crazier stuff that just can't afford to play. Not sure if that's the case but from a probability pov, there likely are some cases like that

 

[Chips]

Yeah I do think the skill level is still higher on average than in previous generations but I just wonder if there aren't freaks of nature out there capable of doing even crazier stuff that just can't afford to play. Not sure if that's the case but from a probability pov, there likely are some cases like that

I’m sure the vast majority of those naturally gifted guys are likely playing cheap or relatively cheap sports for sure

 

[Dirty Dan]

Watch his hand distance on the shot. Older players honestly shoot with hands further apart compared to younger players. Even go as far as looking how Bedard shoots compared to the big name guys who grew up playing with wood sticks. Different element all together.

Matthews is not big on slap shots so he has not much reason to have his hand all the way down. But maybe its slightly higher up

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Yeah its honestly crazy how expensive goalie gear is in particular. I'm looking to buy some used pads bc I wanna join a beer league this year and even the old and used equipment is 1500+ for non competitive play. I can't imagine being a parent/kid in this age and wanting to play competitively. Especially when you consider they'll grow out of their equipment as they get older like you said. I'd like to think eventually we'll find cheaper material to make equipment and the prices will go down but who knows.

Unfortunately, even if we find cheaper materials to make equipment with, the equipment will still be made by for profit companies whose main priority is to funnel as much money as possible to their shareholders, which means prices aren't coming back down. If anything, they'll claim there was a massive amount of research and development for this new material and they had to have new machinery built to use the new material, so the new sticks/skates/whatever need to cost even more.

As for the main question, I think there absolutely are kids out there who would be amazing at hockey but never got the chance to play. Some of that is definitely the cost of equipment, but you also need to be exposed to the game, which is difficult for a sport that can't be played outside in most parts of the world. For all we know, there could be a kid born in South Florida to a Cuban family that could afford to play ice hockey and would be amazing, but never sees a game of ice hockey so he ends up focusing on Jai Alai because that's much more prevalent in South Florida. Or a kid in North Carolina who ends up getting into auto racing instead of ice hockey.

Also, the cost and access issues aren't just for sports. What if the person who could potentially cure all types of cancer can't afford to go to college? Or chose to go into petroleum engineering and work at the company their father founded. Or was born a girl in Afghanistan and never allowed to attend school in the first place?

 

[miscs75]

Matthews is not big on slap shots so he has not much reason to have his hand all the way down. But maybe its slightly higher up

I’m not even talking slap shots since that technique for the most part hasn’t change. Wrist and snap shots however you can see a difference.