Is hockey slowly becoming an aristocracy? (Need help answering this question)

Confused Turnip

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Nov 29, 2019
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Hockey is much more a training based sport than one that rewards genetically gifted athletes.

Sure if you are genetically gifted you will make better progress, but there are tonnes of NHLers past and present that are entirely unremarkable athletes.

Its skill based. You don't need to have a standing vertical jump to play hockey. You just need a tonne of practice at skating, stickhandling and shooting skills.

I have a cousin who made it far as a hockey player. It wasn't because he was 7 feet tall and shot thunderbolts from his arse. He just practiced and played all the time growing up.
Name one. Every NHLer I can think of is a remarkable athlete. I'm not sure why you think height or gastrointestinal distress are the measures of athleticism, but fast/slow twitch muscle proportions, efficiency of removal of lactic acid from the blood, lung capacity, testosterone levels, frame size, genetic musclar potential, neuromuscular coordination, protein synthesis, etc. Most NHLers are remarkable in at least several of these.
 
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krutovsdonut

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This is a really interesting post and hypothesis. I think you are definitely on to something here. I have season tickets to an OHL team and my Dad and I often do a thought experiment where we make a team of all the former NHL relatives playing in the game. The number is astounding in Junior hockey and think that would be a great place to look at the numbers as well.

but how many of these guys even get drafted to the nhl, and how many more near relatives didn't get out of bantam?

or to put it another way, let me use a cycling analogy. kids of nhlers and insiders can "draft" behind their dad's money and knowledge a fair distance, and other kids can draft behind less close and less connected relatives to a lesser degree. maybe into junior, definitely canadian college, and maybe us college. but the advantage stops somewhere. you come to a mountain stage and you have to climb it yourself.

given the stakes, you would expect very high participation rates like this from people with an insider understanding of the game trying to get a kid over the finish line. the fact that in the end they don't dominate the pro ranks should tell you the development pool is healthy.

one other comment is to take a look at the hughes brothers. theoretically they fit the privileged access paradigm, with a dad employed in the nhl, and a hothouse flower background by which they got the absolute best development possible at every stage. but they also fit the two athlete parent good genes paradigm and they quite clearly have natural talents that allowed them to not just get over the finish line but be right at the top of the talent pool despite a considerable size deficiency.

you cannot tell me the hughes brothers are there just because of access, but i would agree that they would never have gotten there without access. i would say rather that they are there because they had a unique talent set that was maximized due to access, and a set of challenges that would never have gotten them this far without that access.
 
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Confused Turnip

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I am an expert on the Soviet Union, and I can see you understand some aspects of Soviet society - how access depended on who you knew, how ice hockey was promoted for nationalistic prestige reasons, etc...

But why is that the only alternative possible to capitalism? Is it that hard to imagine a system where children could have equal access, where it didn't depend purely on money or purely on connections? We can do better than both!
Anyone who thinks hockey is bad for access in NA because St Mary Shattuck has hosted multiple generational talents or whatever (and it's a valid point I agree with) but doesn't think the Russian/Soviet system is bad is kind of delusional. Kuznetsov is noted as an aberration in elite Russian hockey because he's from a poor town and a poor club, virtually every other Russian NHLer came through Moscow's system. If anything it's way worse.
 
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Confused Turnip

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Weird, my wife and I are both teachers and our son plays high level club hockey. We certainly aren’t rich.
I don't know where in Canada you are, but teachers where I am make six figures before they take on extra responsibilities like summer school or special ed. I suspect no matter where you are, you're well beyond the average family in Canada just by having two working professionals.
 

Plante

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People keep talking about genetics, but aren't talking about any specifics, and it sounds like people spouting off on stuff they don't know.

Is there any scientific evidence to support a genetic predisposition towards hockey skills with these few and elite families?
 

nickschultzfan

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The answer to THE question is the answer to the question, "Why, when playing monopoly, does everyone want to be the banker?"
 

majormajor

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Anyone who thinks hockey is bad for access in NA because St Mary Shattuck has hosted multiple generational talents or whatever (and it's a valid point I agree with) but doesn't think the Russian/Soviet system is bad is kind of delusional. Kuznetsov is noted as an aberration in elite Russian hockey because he's from a poor town and a poor club, virtually every other Russian NHLer came through Moscow's system. If anything it's way worse.

I agree regarding Russia today, hockey is even more exclusive there. But I wouldn't say "Soviet/Russia system" because it has changed so much since then.
 

majormajor

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but how many of these guys even get drafted to the nhl, and how many more near relatives didn't get out of bantam?

or to put it another way, let me use a cycling analogy. kids of nhlers and insiders can "draft" behind their dad's money and knowledge a fair distance, and other kids can draft behind less close and less connected relatives to a lesser degree. maybe into junior, definitely canadian college, and maybe us college. but the advantage stops somewhere.

Going back to "dream hoarders" in the OP, the argument is that the advantage doesn't stop. If you had specialist skating coaches mold you from age 5 to 11 then that gives you an advantage that lasts your whole career.
 
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rambo97

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Name one. Every NHLer I can think of is a remarkable athlete. I'm not sure why you think height or gastrointestinal distress are the measures of athleticism, but fast/slow twitch muscle proportions, efficiency of removal of lactic acid from the blood, lung capacity, testosterone levels, frame size, genetic musclar potential, neuromuscular coordination, protein synthesis, etc. Most NHLers are remarkable in at least several of these.

You are absolutely right, NHLers are remarkable athletes but I think they get this reputation because they usually aren't great runners/sprinters. Usually when the general public think of great athletes they are thinking of fast runners, jumpers, etc. Basically football players.

Hockey uses different muscles & techniques so they don't have to be proficient runners to be remarkable at hockey. But I agree with you, every NHLer is a terrific athlete but different from others sports.

The one thing they all have in common (NHLers, NBA, NFL, etc) is they are extremely strong and powerful, with fast processing abilities and the ability to recruit the proper muscles needed to excel in their sports.
 
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abo9

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For context:
I'm involved in public policy, and there's a phenomenon that social scientists and economists have noticed in the past 30 years: a consolidation of opportunity, resources, social capital, and institutional knowledge by ~10% - 20% of the population. A class Richard Reeves calls the "dream hoarders." I'd be happy to speak more broadly about this in my DMs if you are interested, but I'm making this post because I think it applies to the hockey world as well. Basically, I don't think it's true anymore that hockey is just a rich, white guy's sport. It has become controlled by a select, shrinking number of families.

I remember 10 years ago how big a deal the Staal and Sutter families were for being so ingrained in hockey. And everybody could name the handful of brothers who played in the league simultaneously. Now, it seems like every other NHLer (and every high end prospect) has a family member who was a professional athlete either in the NHL or in Europe. I.e. the likelihood of a boy making it to the NHL is becoming more and more dependent on whether or not he was born to a family who has already made it.

The little project I'm undertaking is trying to figure out how much more common it has become over time for any given NHLer to have professional sports ties. What I am currently doing is looking at the Florida Panthers rosters in 2021, 2016, and 2011, and going through the players to see if they have any of these familial connections. EliteProspects has a great feature that helps with this.

Obviously I'm not going to do this for all teams, but if you are interested in answering this posts' titular question, look up your favorite team's roster in 2021, 2016, and 2011, and let's see if there are any trends that can be found.

Florida Panthers 2021.....33% (11/33) have a family connection
  • Spencer Knight (cousin is a female pro)
  • Kevin Connauton (brother was an NCAA Division I)
  • Gustav Forsling (brother was a pro in Sweden)
  • Radko Gudas (father was drafted by the Flames, sister was a Czech Olympian, brother-in-law is Michael Neuvirth)
  • Mackenzie Weegar (uncle played in NHL)
  • Keith Yandle (uncle worked in NHL front offices, brother played in ECHL)
  • Aleksander Barkov (uncle was a pro in Finland and Russia)
  • Grigori Denisenko (brother is a pro in Russia)
  • Mason Marchment (father played in NHL, cousin played in AHL, cousin is a female pro)
  • Owen Tippett (cousin is Mitchell Stephens)
  • Alex Wennberg (cousin is a pro in Sweden)
Florida Panthers 2016.....35% (13/37) have a family connection
  • Roberto Luongo (brother is an AHL goaltending coach)
  • Brian Campbell (brother played in ECHL)
  • Erik Gudbranson (brother played in AHL)
  • Jakub Kindl (brother is a pro in Czechia)
  • Dylan Olsen (uncle was a pro in Germany)
  • Aleksander Barkov (uncle was a pro in Finland and Russia)
  • Nick Bjugstad (uncle played in NHL)
  • Connor Brickley (father drafted by Kings, cousins played in AHL)
  • Jiri Hudler (father was a pro in Czechia)
  • Jussi Jokinen (brother was a pro in Finland)
  • Greg McKegg (uncle played in NHL)
  • Kyle Rau (brother played in NHL)
  • Reilly Smith (brother is Brendan Smith)
Florida Panthers 2011.....18% (7/40) have a family connection
  • Tyler Plante (father and brother played in NHL)
  • Keaton Ellbergy (cousins are Shane Doan and Carey Price)
  • Niclas Bergfors (brother was a pro in Sweden)
  • Michael Frolik (brother was a pro in Czechia)
  • Mike Santorelli (brother played in the AHL)
  • Cory Stillman (son is Riley Stillman, father played in the NHL)
  • Stephen Weiss (uncle is NHL coach)

Nice! I often think about stuff like that but too lazy to do the work across the league.
I could do Montreal - not sure how far you want the link though? I feel like "cousins" is a little too far to be relevant

I can absolutely see the interest in seeing if dad/grandpa/mom/grandma/brother/sister were involved in high level hockey as well though.
On the top of my head I know Cole Caufield's dad and grandfather were/are big figures in Wisconsin hockey.
 

ChuckLefley

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Jan 5, 2016
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How many rinks/teams/programs are accessible in under an hour drive from where he was raised/played hockey? Does your son have relatives that play at any level?

Honest question.

I think affluence is just part of it, but acessibility and popularity are another. (If your son had a ton of similarly aged kids to play with, whether organically or found from programs), I think that may be part of him playing.

Affluence gives people a leg up, but experience/exposure plays in, and in case of the OP point, especially if you have a familiar connection to it at any level.
Currently I am the only relative that plays. We have ten or so rinks within an hour of our home. He only knows a couple of kids from school who play hockey and we play in a different club from them.

We choose to save money so he can play hockey. We sacrifice. We aren’t anywhere close to being rich.
 

ChuckLefley

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Jan 5, 2016
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I don't know where in Canada you are, but teachers where I am make six figures before they take on extra responsibilities like summer school or special ed. I suspect no matter where you are, you're well beyond the average family in Canada just by having two working professionals.
I should move to Canada if teachers are making six figures on average. Of course after looking I see a couple of provinces list six figures for the highest earning teachers. Of course to be among the highest earners involves being near the end of your career, which we aren’t.
 

Confused Turnip

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Nov 29, 2019
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I should move to Canada if teachers are making six figures on average. Of course after looking I see a couple of provinces list six figures for the highest earning teachers. Of course to be among the highest earners involves being near the end of your career, which we aren’t.
Salaries are by board. The pay scale at the local board maxes out after 10 years of seniority and it's flat from there, based on your teachables, age group, etc. 100-120k range. If you do summer school/special ed you can add quite a bit. I'm sure rural teachers make less but I think their pay scales also max out after relatively few years of seniority.
 

Lacaar

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Jan 25, 2012
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I should move to Canada if teachers are making six figures on average. Of course after looking I see a couple of provinces list six figures for the highest earning teachers. Of course to be among the highest earners involves being near the end of your career, which we aren’t.

Well that may be a bit high. School teachers in Canada make good money. Enough that a family of two teachers would be well over the average income of families with both partners working.
Rich though is a hyperbole but they are well off for sure. Enough that they can fund a child or perhaps two through high end sports if that's how they wish to spend their money.
 
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Fantomas

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Anyone who thinks hockey is bad for access in NA because St Mary Shattuck has hosted multiple generational talents or whatever (and it's a valid point I agree with) but doesn't think the Russian/Soviet system is bad is kind of delusional. Kuznetsov is noted as an aberration in elite Russian hockey because he's from a poor town and a poor club, virtually every other Russian NHLer came through Moscow's system. If anything it's way worse.

Interesting how you combined Russian and Soviet systems as if they're the same thing as opposed to the complete opposites.
 
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Bank Shot

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Jan 18, 2006
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Name one. Every NHLer I can think of is a remarkable athlete. I'm not sure why you think height or gastrointestinal distress are the measures of athleticism, but fast/slow twitch muscle proportions, efficiency of removal of lactic acid from the blood, lung capacity, testosterone levels, frame size, genetic musclar potential, neuromuscular coordination, protein synthesis, etc. Most NHLers are remarkable in at least several of these.

Says who? Link me to some articles that prove any of this. When you see a guy like Kyle Wellwood can make it, that kind of shows that skill trumps things like muscle and frame.

If I had to guess the biggest determining factors of who makes the NHL and who doesn't, I would guess that practice is at least 70-80% and genetics and money fill in the rest.
search
 

Fantomas

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Aug 7, 2012
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I agree regarding Russia today, hockey is even more exclusive there. But I wouldn't say "Soviet/Russia system" because it has changed so much since then.

He doesn't know what he's talking about. The Soviet Union made hockey accessible to people from coast to coast. There were makeshift rinks almost everywhere.

Hockey is a sport for elites under capitalism.
 
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Confused Turnip

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He doesn't know what he's talking about. The Soviet Union made hockey accessible to people from coast to coast. There were makeshift rinks almost everywhere.

Hockey is a sport for elites under capitalism.
Were you there? You have no f***ing clue and are a colossal idiot for even trying to speak on the subject if you think this. I would dearly love to watch your naive ass attempt to acquire the correct socks to wear under a set of skates in the USSR, forget the skates themselves. After that I would certainly love to see you show me the omnipresent backyard rinks.

Is there a point to this post? Kyle Wellwood is absolutely an elite athlete and would run circles around many guys with a glistening six pack.
 
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WhalerTurnedBruin55

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Currently I am the only relative that plays. We have ten or so rinks within an hour of our home. He only knows a couple of kids from school who play hockey and we play in a different club from them.

We choose to save money so he can play hockey. We sacrifice. We aren’t anywhere close to being rich.
Oh definitely understandable, I wasn't implying you were rich. But having accessibility to the sport (and others to play with) definitely makes that possible, and certainly your interest probably didn't hurt the case.
 

rambo97

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Jan 2, 2018
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lol - I remember seeing this pic but can't remember which player it was. In any case, the guy is wearing a cast so obviously was injured so I'd give him a break.

Someone referenced Wellwood....I can guarantee that even he was strong. In order to skate at an NHL level and shoot you have to be strong. To skate fast, you have to exert force into the ice. So I would say every NHL player is strong in the lower body and core. Without it they couldn't survive. They couldn't bend their knees enough (without adequate quad, lower back and core strength) to skate fast enough, or shoot hard enough and even to be able to absorb a check from opposing players.
 

WarriorofTime

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Jul 3, 2010
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Name one. Every NHLer I can think of is a remarkable athlete. I'm not sure why you think height or gastrointestinal distress are the measures of athleticism, but fast/slow twitch muscle proportions, efficiency of removal of lactic acid from the blood, lung capacity, testosterone levels, frame size, genetic musclar potential, neuromuscular coordination, protein synthesis, etc. Most NHLers are remarkable in at least several of these.
Casey Middlestadt couldn't do a pullup, but there is a reason he gets manhandled by NHL defenders.
 

DuckyGirard

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May 23, 2021
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So I'm hearing from you that those other countries are probably like Southern Ontario, and Newfoundland is in the middle of the spectrum between both extremes so you're an expert... I'm a bit skeptical that that cuts it. Canada has a lot to learn from many European nations. I'm originally from Cape Breton and I live in the States. I wouldn't say that those two pieces of experience cover half of what I'd want to know here.

Note the word, "relative" expert.

You mention the states a place where it's clear there's almost no one has first hand experience.

I'm sure if someone is from portions of quebec they are equally familiar.

And I'm not claiming to be a master of europe, I'm claiming to be a relative expert compared to most anglo north Americans.

Also the "many european" nations bit is the typical cliche that gets mentioned and it usually turns into a whole lot of nothing when you actually investigate the situation. The dutch have super high income equality and yet have some of the most extreme wealth inequalities in the world, turns out with high taxes the rich stay rich as they live off their assets and not income. non capitalistic models are pretty dam predictable in how they fail, it's not some advanced economic theory, it's some basic premises that tend to bulldoze over convoluted theory. Most of the actual success stories(germany) typically span out from embracing capitalism and modifying it with rational regulation.

Should also mention a whole lot of those "world ranking lists" are derived from having a nice climate and preferable population densities. Most of the claims are entirely subjective nonsense, used for political purposes and usually have little to do with political prowess.
 

abo9

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Jun 25, 2017
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Did the exercise with Montreal for fun. Using eliteprospect roster and relations on the player's page. I did skip some relations where a father or brother played like Cegep hockey in Quebec or 2 games in Slovak's 2nd league or something... tried to keep it to guys who played pro or were involved in pro hockey significantly.

I did not count starred * players in the total, but kept them in because it was interesting.

Montreal Canadiens 2021..... 55% (17/33) have a family connection
  • Tyler Toffoli (dad Rob Toffoli was GM of his Junior A team)
  • Jeff Petry* (dad Dan Petry was an MLB pitcher)
  • Nick Suzuki (brother Ryan Suzuki is ALSO a first round selection - by the Canes)
  • Tomas Tatar (brothers Marek and Tibor also played professionally in Europe, albeit in more obscure leagues)
  • Philippe Danault (Public announcer for Tigres de Victoriaville, his Q team)
  • Brendan Gallagher (father is a conditioning coach for WHL team - also coaches NHL players if I'm not mistaken)
  • Corey Perry (brother Adam Perry played in the OHL)
  • Jesperi Kotkaniemi (father was a pro player and coach in Finland, brother is a pro in Finland)
  • Arthuri Lehkonen (father Ismo and uncle Timo were pro players in Finland)
  • Jake Evans* (cousins are also pros who played at the AHL level)
  • Alexander Romanov (father and grand father were pro players in Russia)
  • Ben Chiarot* (father was a pro football player in Canada)
  • Eric Staal (the Staal brothers)
  • Erik Gustavsson (2 brothers who are pro in Sweden)
  • Jesse Ylonen (father Juha was a pro player in Finland)
  • Xavier Ouellet (father was a pro player)
  • Michael Frolik (brother is a pro player)
  • Carey Price (2 cousins in the NHL, father is a goalie coach)
  • Cayden Primeau (father Keith was NHL player, 8 more family connections on eliteprospects)
  • Charlie Lindgren (father played NCAA, brother played NHL)
Montreal Canadiens 2016..... 39% (18/46) have a family connection
  • Alex Galchenyuk (Father was a pro player in Europe)
  • PK Subban (brothers Jordan and Malcolm played in the NHL)
  • Andrei Markov * (son is playing in Russia's MHL)
  • Brendan Gallagher (see 2021)
  • Lars Eller (father was a pro player in Denmark, pro Coach, brother is also a pro player in Denmark)
  • Thomas Fleishmann (father was a head coach in Czech Republic)
  • Nathan Beaulieu (father was a G/coach in the OHL/QMJHL... wait did he draft his own son?)
  • Jeff Petry * (see 2021)
  • Philippe Danault (see 2021)
  • Alex Semin (father was a team manager in Russia3 ?)
  • Michael McCarron (brother is a pro player too)
  • Charles hudon (father played 6 games in the Q)
  • Christian Thomas (father played in NHL)
  • Stefan Matteau (father played in NHL, sister played NCAA)
  • Jacob De La Rose (brother is a pro in Europe)
  • Ryan Johnston (sister on the Olympic team, another sister in NCAA, one brother played pro, uncle coached NHL)
  • Jared Tinordi (father played NHL, brother played NCAA and ECHL)
  • Viktor Bartley (brother played in WHL)
  • Carey Price (see 2021)
  • Charlie Lindgren (see 2021)

Montreal Canadiens 2011.....38% (13/34) have a family connection
  • Jaroslav Spacek (brother is a pro in Czech Republic, son is looking good)
  • Lars Eller (see 2016)
  • Mathieu Darche * (borther is NFL player, sons?)
  • James Wisniewski (uncle was an NHL player)
  • Roman Hamrlik (brother was a pro)
  • PK Subban (look 2016)
  • Andrei Kotsytsyn (brother Sergei was NHL player)
  • Brian Gionta (brother, father were NHL players)
  • Aaron Palushaj (brother was an ACHA player)
  • Brendon Nash (brother NHL player)
  • Dustin Boyd (brother WHL player)
  • Paul Mara (brother NCAA player)
  • Tom Pyatt (brother NHL player, father NHL player)
  • Carey Price (see 2016, 2021)
 
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ChuckLefley

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Oh definitely understandable, I wasn't implying you were rich. But having accessibility to the sport (and others to play with) definitely makes that possible, and certainly your interest probably didn't hurt the case.

I know and having a family member who plays and rinks to play at makes it much easier. The issue I have is the idea that you have to be rich to be able to play.

Salaries are by board. The pay scale at the local board maxes out after 10 years of seniority and it's flat from there, based on your teachables, age group, etc. 100-120k range. If you do summer school/special ed you can add quite a bit. I'm sure rural teachers make less but I think their pay scales also max out after relatively few years of seniority.
As I said, I looked and very few maxed in the six figures.
 

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