Is hockey slowly becoming an aristocracy? (Need help answering this question)

[Fantomas]

I don’t like your answer because it was not a direct answer to my question. It was the kind of answer that someone gives when they know they can’t “win” a discussion. Perhaps you should move on since you clearly are too afraid to have a real discussion on the topic.

Interesting. To be honest, I didn't like your question because it indicated either a) bad faith, b) poor reading comprehension.

Take care.

 

[ChuckLefley]

Interesting. To be honest, I didn't like your question because it indicated either a) bad faith, b) poor reading comprehension.

Take care.

No, you didn’t like my question because you couldn’t set it up in advance to fit your narrative. It’s a cowardly way to go about having discussions, but then you are the guy comparing the discussion of genetics of athletes to eugenics and racism, so that’s not a surprise.

Run away.

 

[Fantomas]

No, you didn’t like my question because you couldn’t set it up in advance to fit your narrative. It’s a cowardly way to go about having discussions, but then you are the guy comparing the discussion of genetics of athletes to eugenics and racism, so that’s not a surprise.

Run away.

You mad.

 

[HBK27]

Maybe you wouldn't be so baffled if you did some research on the topic.

Know plenty about the topic. The baffling part is why you threw a "racism" wrench into an otherwise very good conversation and completely derailed the thread.

Here's your original quote: "But ascribing athletic superiority to genetics is really bankrupt mentality, and aligns too closely with eugenics and various forms of scientific racism."

You later admit: "I'm not arguing that genetics have nothing to do with athleticism, or anything to that sort."

So you admit that genetics does have something to do with athleticism, then what was the problem with previous posters noting that? Why are you bringing eugenics and "scientific racism" into the conversation?

 

[therealkoho]

Not many families can afford one kid playing competitive hockey, let alone two or three. League up front fees, ice time and insurance costs only add to the burden, not to mention the time and fuel costs even if ride sharing. I know it was very difficult for my parents keeping me in competitive leagues and then summer hockey school back in the 60's. My kids played baseball, soccer and football, I just couldn't afford hockey for two, even though I would've loved for them to play.

 

[ChuckLefley]

You mad.

At this point I’m just playing with you because I know two things:

1) You’re so far gone when it comes to avoiding my question that you can’t go back.
2) It hurts so much that you have to keep commenting on me and responding.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

This is a bit related.

A friend of mine, is one of the most talented artists in my field.

He became the Lead Artist for the largest video game in the world at the time (World of Warcraft), and is now the Art Director for League of Legends, which is NOW the biggest game in the world.

His work is ridiculously insanely awesome, and he managed to rise to the top of an insanely competitive field.
Tyson Murphy

The reason I bring him up.

Is that his Dad is MLB MVP Dale Murphy:

Tyson's brothers are 2x former NFLers
Shawn, and Jake Murphy

And I believe one of his other siblings is a surgeon.

 

[madinsomniac]

Nhl Hockey has always been a good ol boys network that rewards legacies and those with simular pedigrees over others... its also rather xenophobic, and there is a pecking order even among North Americans... its a weird culture to say the least

 

[Paper]

I think it boils to nurture rather than nature. Hockey genetics doesn't make sense to me. Look at the players who are twins and one did well, the other sucked (Russell, Lundqvist etc.). Look at brothers that are the same (Hamilton, Weisblatts, Granlunds etc).

You know you're still talking about the 0.0..001% of the world when you talk about these guys right? They, to various degrees, made the NHL.

 

[Fantomas]

I can see that the role of genetics is serious business to certain members of the hockey community. Hold on to this if it matters that much to you.

 

[Fantomas]

At this point I’m just playing with you because I know two things:

1) You’re so far gone when it comes to avoiding my question that you can’t go back.
2) It hurts so much that you have to keep commenting on me and responding.

Yes I'm simply devastated.

 

[ChuckLefley]

Yes I'm simply devastated.

Still responding, I see, and still refusing to answer my question. Maybe you should claim that my line of questioning is racist!

 

[therealkoho]

Isn't Gretz' son a baseball player?

was! apparently he had a pretty decent fastball but other pitches weren't ever going to get to major league quality

Bobby Orr funny enough didn't let his kids play hockey, how about the pressure they would carry with the Orr name!

 

[PlayersLtd]

The average middle class household in Canada makes $62k/year (total for the household). Tuition to a top hockey school costs $60k/year.

I mean, I guess technically there is money left over...

Without question there are ways you can spend nearly unlimited amounts on your kids development. The most expensive path doesn't accurately represent the common costs however.

 

[HBK27]

Nhl Hockey has always been a good ol boys network that rewards legacies and those with simular pedigrees over others... its also rather xenophobic, and there is a pecking order even among North Americans... its a weird culture to say the least

The NHL is a highly-competitive, multi-billion dollar industry. Like every other industry, individuals with connections have certain advantages, but by and large the NHL is very much a meritocracy. Would love to hear more about how the league is "rather xenophobic".

 

[HBK27]

For context:
I'm involved in public policy, and there's a phenomenon that social scientists and economists have noticed in the past 30 years: a consolidation of opportunity, resources, social capital, and institutional knowledge by ~10% - 20% of the population. A class Richard Reeves calls the "dream hoarders." I'd be happy to speak more broadly about this in my DMs if you are interested, but I'm making this post because I think it applies to the hockey world as well. Basically, I don't think it's true anymore that hockey is just a rich, white guy's sport. It has become controlled by a select, shrinking number of families.

I remember 10 years ago how big a deal the Staal and Sutter families were for being so ingrained in hockey. And everybody could name the handful of brothers who played in the league simultaneously. Now, it seems like every other NHLer (and every high end prospect) has a family member who was a professional athlete either in the NHL or in Europe. I.e. the likelihood of a boy making it to the NHL is becoming more and more dependent on whether or not he was born to a family who has already made it.

The little project I'm undertaking is trying to figure out how much more common it has become over time for any given NHLer to have professional sports ties. What I am currently doing is looking at the Florida Panthers rosters in 2021, 2016, and 2011, and going through the players to see if they have any of these familial connections. EliteProspects has a great feature that helps with this.

Obviously I'm not going to do this for all teams, but if you are interested in answering this posts' titular question, look up your favorite team's roster in 2021, 2016, and 2011, and let's see if there are any trends that can be found.

Florida Panthers 2021.....33% (11/33) have a family connection

• Spencer Knight (cousin is a female pro)
• Kevin Connauton (brother was an NCAA Division I)
• Gustav Forsling (brother was a pro in Sweden)
• Radko Gudas (father was drafted by the Flames, sister was a Czech Olympian, brother-in-law is Michael Neuvirth)
• Mackenzie Weegar (uncle played in NHL)
• Keith Yandle (uncle worked in NHL front offices, brother played in ECHL)
• Aleksander Barkov (uncle was a pro in Finland and Russia)
• Grigori Denisenko (brother is a pro in Russia)
• Mason Marchment (father played in NHL, cousin played in AHL, cousin is a female pro)
• Owen Tippett (cousin is Mitchell Stephens)
• Alex Wennberg (cousin is a pro in Sweden)

Florida Panthers 2016.....35% (13/37) have a family connection

• Roberto Luongo (brother is an AHL goaltending coach)
• Brian Campbell (brother played in ECHL)
• Erik Gudbranson (brother played in AHL)
• Jakub Kindl (brother is a pro in Czechia)
• Dylan Olsen (uncle was a pro in Germany)
• Aleksander Barkov (uncle was a pro in Finland and Russia)
  
• Nick Bjugstad (uncle played in NHL)
• Connor Brickley (father drafted by Kings, cousins played in AHL)
• Jiri Hudler (father was a pro in Czechia)
• Jussi Jokinen (brother was a pro in Finland)
• Greg McKegg (uncle played in NHL)
• Kyle Rau (brother played in NHL)
• Reilly Smith (brother is Brendan Smith)

Florida Panthers 2011.....18% (7/40) have a family connection

• Tyler Plante (father and brother played in NHL)
• Keaton Ellbergy (cousins are Shane Doan and Carey Price)
• Niclas Bergfors (brother was a pro in Sweden)
• Michael Frolik (brother was a pro in Czechia)
• Mike Santorelli (brother played in the AHL)
• Cory Stillman (son is Riley Stillman, father played in the NHL)
• Stephen Weiss (uncle is NHL coach)

If you criteria is having any family member (including uncles & cousins) play in a professional league (including the ECHL & European leagues) or coach/get drafted to the NHL then of course you’d expect the numbers to increase over time. Part of it is the increase in the number of teams & leagues. Another part is just how family tress are set up – once one guy, he’ll likely have a bunch of kids/nephew/nieces that he can then be connected to.

Plenty of other good reasons already mentioned – certainly for a kid whose father plays professionally, they’re much more likely to get involved with hockey at an earlier age, ahve the financial means to play at high levels, likely have some athletic genetics, high level coaching from their father at an early age, lots of hockey connections and a realistic notion that they could actually make play the sport for a living as they’ve seen someone in their immediate family do so – not to mention someone that can personally guide them on how to best achieve that goal.

 

[HBK27]

I can see that the role of genetics is serious business to certain members of the hockey community. Hold on to this if it matters that much to you.

Keep moving those goalposts. You got called out on your BS and can't back a lick of it up.

 

[jcs0218]

Hockey is a rich person's sport.

Equipment, ice-time, registration, etc., are all very costly.

It isn't like baseball or basketball, where the cost of equipment is minimal. It also costs nothing to find a local park with a basketball court or baseball diamond, and play.

Also, hockey isn't really a "school" sport the way other sports are. You have to pay to join clubs (registration fees).

It doesn't cost an athlete in football, basketball, or baseball to join their school's team. They just try-out and get to play if they are good enough. No registration fees and no ice-time fees since games are played on the school premises.

 

[ChuckLefley]

Keep moving those goalposts. You got called out on your BS and can't back a lick of it up.

Do t worry about him, he has, intelligently, moved on. Now we can discuss how genes do affect athletic athletic ability of people of all races

 

[ChuckLefley]

Hockey is a rich person's sport.

Equipment, ice-time, registration, etc., are all very costly.

It isn't like baseball or basketball, where the cost of equipment is minimal. It also costs nothing to find a local park with a basketball court or baseball diamond, and play.

Also, hockey isn't really a "school" sport the way other sports are. You have to pay to join clubs (registration fees).

It doesn't cost an athlete in football, basketball, or baseball to join their school's team. They just try-out and get to play if they are good enough. No registration fees and no ice-time fees since games are played on the school premises.

It’s not a “rich persons sport,” but it isn’t a poor persons sport either. As I said my wife and I are both teachers (and no, we don’t make $80k+ like some goofball claimed) and our son plays travel hockey.

 

[Captain97]

I'm gonna say there are 2 reasons for this:

1. Certain physical traits make you better at hockey and many of those are genetic.

2. Hockey costs a ton of money, so it's more likely the children of pro-athletes have the money and time to commit.

 

[tarheelhockey]

there is definitely an argument that, to a point, the smaller hockey talent pool means a less talented player can make good if better nurtured.

This hits the nail right on the head.

The NHL puts a lot of effort into selling the idea that we are seeing the most talented group of players ever produced. I find that claim dubious for a number of reasons (spelled out at length in other threads) but very specifically, I don't think the data supports claims that the hockey development system is actually bringing the most talented players to the forefront. What we see far far more often is that talented players with excessive levels of training access and financial means are able to continue moving up the ladder while other equally-talented but less-privileged prospects hit various barriers along the way.

Another data point:

Brothers in the Hall of Fame

MLB
Harry and George Wright (1870s)
Lloyd and Paul Waner (1920s-1940s)

NBA
Paul and Marc Gasol, presumptive (2000s-2010s)

NFL
NONE

NHL
Lester and Frank Patrick (1900s-1920s)
Buck and Frank Boucher (1910s-1930s)
Bill and Bun Cook (1920s-1930s)
Charlie, Lionel, and Roy Conacher (1920s-1940s)
Doug and Max Bentley (1940s-1950s)
Henri and Maurice Richard (1940s-1970s)
Tony and Phil Esposito (1960s-1980s)
Daniel and Henrik Sedin, presumptive (2000s-2010s)


We can see the effect of rapid expansion from the 1960s through the 2000s -- brothers now are much more likely to "only" make the NHL or "only" be All Stars rather than full-on Hall of Famers together -- which provides some proof of concept that the proxy is giving a reliable reading. I would expect an analysis would show similar impact on stats, all-star awards, etc produced by brothers during the same time frame.

The persistence of this effect across eras seems to indicate the obvious, that hockey simply draws from a narrower population base than other sports. But there are orders of magnitude involved which seem to outpace the population difference. There are few equivalents to the Patricks, Conachers, Stastnys, Sutters, Staals, etc in other sports whereas it's a regular feature in the hockey world, generation after generation. That rather strongly seems to suggest that there are anti-competitive forces at play, selecting for opportunities according to factors other than athletic talent and dedication.

 

[golfortennis]

Do t worry about him, he has, intelligently, moved on. Now we can discuss how genes do affect athletic athletic ability of people of all races

It has always been fascinating how many people cling to the "work hard and you can make it" thing. I mean, pretty much everyone at a top level works hard. But that is the point. These are genetic freaks. A very good predictor of athletic ability is Standing Vertical Jump. (SVJ). IF you get someone who can jump 34", you have the makings of a high level athlete. But here's the thing: you can improve your SVJ some, but not a lot. Meaning, my 24" SVJ when I was in my early twenties might be able to get to 27", but 34" was never happening. You either have it or you don't.

The "all-hard work, no talent" guys you hear about on NHL teams or baseball teams or whatever, were almost guaranteed the best players in their area growing up, unless they grew up with a current league all-star in their cohort. These guys still have more talent in one hand than 95% of the population. Hard work differentiates between talent, but having no talent is going to keep you on the sideline.

Everyone of us knows at least one guy who no matter what sport it is, they are quite good at it, and often without having played it very often. Genetics.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

It has always been fascinating how many people cling to the "work hard and you can make it" thing. I mean, pretty much everyone at a top level works hard. But that is the point. These are genetic freaks. A very good predictor of athletic ability is Standing Vertical Jump. (SVJ). IF you get someone who can jump 34", you have the makings of a high level athlete. But here's the thing: you can improve your SVJ some, but not a lot. Meaning, my 24" SVJ when I was in my early twenties might be able to get to 27", but 34" was never happening. You either have it or you don't.

The "all-hard work, no talent" guys you hear about on NHL teams or baseball teams or whatever, were almost guaranteed the best players in their area growing up, unless they grew up with a current league all-star in their cohort. These guys still have more talent in one hand than 95% of the population. Hard work differentiates between talent, but having no talent is going to keep you on the sideline.

Everyone of us knows at least one guy who no matter what sport it is, they are quite good at it, and often without having played it very often. Genetics.

It's a completely normal human condition and has nothing whatsoever to do with anything that guy was talking about. Some people would like us to lose the ability to have honest conversations about inequitable outcomes and ALL the reasons for them. They aren't all nefarious. In fact, the vast majority of them aren't.

 

[I am toxic]

For context:
I'm involved in public policy, and there's a phenomenon that social scientists and economists have noticed in the past 30 years: a consolidation of opportunity, resources, social capital, and institutional knowledge by ~10% - 20% of the population. A class Richard Reeves calls the "dream hoarders." I'd be happy to speak more broadly about this in my DMs if you are interested, but I'm making this post because I think it applies to the hockey world as well. Basically, I don't think it's true anymore that hockey is just a rich, white guy's sport. It has become controlled by a select, shrinking number of families.

I remember 10 years ago how big a deal the Staal and Sutter families were for being so ingrained in hockey. And everybody could name the handful of brothers who played in the league simultaneously. Now, it seems like every other NHLer (and every high end prospect) has a family member who was a professional athlete either in the NHL or in Europe. I.e. the likelihood of a boy making it to the NHL is becoming more and more dependent on whether or not he was born to a family who has already made it.

The little project I'm undertaking is trying to figure out how much more common it has become over time for any given NHLer to have professional sports ties. What I am currently doing is looking at the Florida Panthers rosters in 2021, 2016, and 2011, and going through the players to see if they have any of these familial connections. EliteProspects has a great feature that helps with this.

Obviously I'm not going to do this for all teams, but if you are interested in answering this posts' titular question, look up your favorite team's roster in 2021, 2016, and 2011, and let's see if there are any trends that can be found.

Florida Panthers 2021.....33% (11/33) have a family connection

• Spencer Knight (cousin is a female pro)
• Kevin Connauton (brother was an NCAA Division I)
• Gustav Forsling (brother was a pro in Sweden)
• Radko Gudas (father was drafted by the Flames, sister was a Czech Olympian, brother-in-law is Michael Neuvirth)
• Mackenzie Weegar (uncle played in NHL)
• Keith Yandle (uncle worked in NHL front offices, brother played in ECHL)
• Aleksander Barkov (uncle was a pro in Finland and Russia)
• Grigori Denisenko (brother is a pro in Russia)
• Mason Marchment (father played in NHL, cousin played in AHL, cousin is a female pro)
• Owen Tippett (cousin is Mitchell Stephens)
• Alex Wennberg (cousin is a pro in Sweden)

Florida Panthers 2016.....35% (13/37) have a family connection

• Roberto Luongo (brother is an AHL goaltending coach)
• Brian Campbell (brother played in ECHL)
• Erik Gudbranson (brother played in AHL)
• Jakub Kindl (brother is a pro in Czechia)
• Dylan Olsen (uncle was a pro in Germany)
• Aleksander Barkov (uncle was a pro in Finland and Russia)
  
• Nick Bjugstad (uncle played in NHL)
• Connor Brickley (father drafted by Kings, cousins played in AHL)
• Jiri Hudler (father was a pro in Czechia)
• Jussi Jokinen (brother was a pro in Finland)
• Greg McKegg (uncle played in NHL)
• Kyle Rau (brother played in NHL)
• Reilly Smith (brother is Brendan Smith)

Florida Panthers 2011.....18% (7/40) have a family connection

• Tyler Plante (father and brother played in NHL)
• Keaton Ellbergy (cousins are Shane Doan and Carey Price)
• Niclas Bergfors (brother was a pro in Sweden)
• Michael Frolik (brother was a pro in Czechia)
• Mike Santorelli (brother played in the AHL)
• Cory Stillman (son is Riley Stillman, father played in the NHL)
• Stephen Weiss (uncle is NHL coach)

Young Boys Club.