Is GG system working?

[Flameshomer]

I am not surprised that the possession numbers look good with him as that is definitely one thing he is still great at keeping that puck once he gets it.

The problem is that there is a hell of a lot more to the game than possession and he seems to be very much struggling in those areas.

7 points and 1 goal in 19 games is not very impressive at all. I don't think anyone can argue that he is a benefit defensively. So if all we have is possession that doesn't seem like much to say that he has been great.

Yeah but I think you're misunderstanding what Corsi/Fenwick are relative to "defense/offense". What I'm saying is that the net amount of events (i.e. shots, blocks, etc) that happen while Jagr is on the ice points to the team outplaying the opposition. A very rough example would be for every negative Jagr is responsible for on the ice, he is responsible for 1.5 positives independent of whether the negatives or positives happen on the defensive or offensive side of the puck.

 

[Flameshomer]

his point totals might not be impressive, but he's certainly generating offensive opportunities. And if his defense is as bad as you say it is, then he's generating A LOT of opportunities. That or his defense isn't as bad as you say.

 

[Baxterman]

Yeah but I think you're misunderstanding what Corsi/Fenwick are relative to "defense/offense". What I'm saying is that the net amount of events (i.e. shots, blocks, etc) that happen while Jagr is on the ice points to the team outplaying the opposition. A very rough example would be for every negative Jagr is responsible for on the ice, he is responsible for 1.5 positives independent of whether the negatives or positives happen on the defensive or offensive side of the puck.

No I just don't think Corsi/Fenwick do much to show anything of value so I was just pointing out that possession with Jagr could help to bump up his fake numbers %'s.

Either way any system which tries to paint it that more good things happen when Jagr is on the ice than not is obviously a pretty crappy system.

 

[Baxterman]

his point totals might not be impressive, but he's certainly generating offensive opportunities. And if his defense is as bad as you say it is, then he's generating A LOT of opportunities. That or his defense isn't as bad as you say.

He isn't and it really is.

 

[Flameshomer]

No I just don't think Corsi/Fenwick do much to show anything of value so I was just pointing out that possession with Jagr could help to bump up his fake numbers %'s.

Either way any system which tries to paint it that more good things happen when Jagr is on the ice than not is obviously a pretty crappy system.

But I just pointed out how they weren't fake numbers? Your reply seems to indicate that you'll abandon reason and logical thought to fortify your emotional position-

 

[Flameshomer]

He isn't

Matt fricken stajan looked like an Nhler beside him last night lol, I'm not sure how you can watch these games and come to this conclusion.

 

[Baxterman]

But I just pointed out how they weren't fake numbers? Your reply seems to indicate that you'll abandon reason and logical thought to fortify your emotional position-

No I am not taking made up numbers as gospel when the truth is plain as day.

It isn't an emotional position either as I was excited by the thought of Jagr playing for us once it was announced he was coming back. I bought into the idea that he could still be a contributing member of the team. Unfortunately watching him play and that just isn't true anymore.

 

[Baxterman]

Matt fricken stajan looked like an Nhler beside him last night lol, I'm not sure how you can watch these games and come to this conclusion.

Stajan didn't look much different last night than he did any other night this year.

And Jagr still looked out of position most of the time.

 

[Flameshomer]

I don't see any point in engaging you further on this subject- you're not using any actual proof to back up your positions. I disagree with your visual assessment and I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

 

[SaintMorose]

As the lone vote for "yes" I'm gonna back my vote up.

GG's system is tough because it doesn't allow any real room for bad turnovers, which with 4 puck-moving Dmen we were seeing too much of when they make those 'risk v reward' passes as well as other poor plays from the team in general. The players need to keep possession until they can dump or carry the puck in at the other team's blue line or we see a bunch of breakaways as our guys get caught flat-footed. While this is a weakness of the system the strength is we transition as a unit better than most teams in the NHL (I'd say top5) and the players are in control of that weakness so if they dont give the puck up we have no problem.
The other issue we run into is GG likes to add to his system at the beginning of the year and we start seeing players caught thinking about their next action rather than just doing it (Brodie and Hamonic were really guilty here the first 2 months) again the result of this was seeing two players for the Flames looking flat-footed while the other team gets the puck.

That said I like the system. The top teams in the NHL are typically puck possession teams and trust themselves and their teammates to keep plays alive and limit turnovers to whenever there is an opportunity for a puck battle. GG's system does this. And while we're still a growing team that needs more consistency from our top 9 to really get the benefits of this, we're growing the right way by using this system. Watching the games after the embarrassment vs Edmonton and seeing how well we play when our players are focused should give people a lot of hope. And while I won't say we should have won all those games (at some point you have to show the skill and poise to finish your chances) we are out-chancing some very good teams and putting ourselves in a better position to win than they are. The wins are going to come when we get at least 2 lines finishing at the same time, but we're a young team and need to be patient with that part.

Special teams is a bit of a different story. While he's played much better this season Brouwer does not need to be on the PP ever and he should only be filling in on the PK not a main unit. Brodie and to a lesser extent Hamonic need to keep up what they've been doing on the pk the last couple weeks instead of allowing too many easy plays to happen through them. And I'd be happy to scrap the current PP set-up and start over from scratch.

 

[Sparky93]

Anyone else think Smith needs to play the puck less? It’s a great asset to have but when we use it too much teams just hang back and clog up the neutral zone.

 

[Fig]

Anyone else think Smith needs to play the puck less? It’s a great asset to have but when we use it too much teams just hang back and clog up the neutral zone.

Disagree.I don't have an issue with is puck handling. But as I've mentioned in the past, the neutral zone is not merely clogged by the opposition team, it's clogged by our team as well and the system has many of our players flat footed. Zone entries are a major Achilles heel of this system. If GG/players figures out how to fix this, watch out!

The theory is ok, execution is a bit messy at the moment IMO.

 

[Sparky93]

Disagree.I don't have an issue with is puck handling. But as I've mentioned in the past, the neutral zone is not merely clogged by the opposition team, it's clogged by our team as well and the system has many of our players flat footed. Zone entries are a major Achilles heel of this system. If GG/players figures out how to fix this, watch out!

The theory is ok, execution is a bit messy at the moment IMO.

That’s just it though, like the stretch pass that worked so great for a season, teams have scouted it. They aren’t coming as deep, creating the separation. I find our zone entry is actually better with Rittich in net. It’s a great weapon to have but can actually be detrimental when over used.

 

[Skobel24]

I don't see any point in engaging you further on this subject- you're not using any actual proof to back up your positions. I disagree with your visual assessment and I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

I think Jagr is doing quite well. Only complaint is his speed is gone.

 

[Baxterman]

I don't see any point in engaging you further on this subject- you're not using any actual proof to back up your positions. I disagree with your visual assessment and I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

Not really sure what proof you want of Jagr being poor defensively. I know someone has made up some number to supposedly track that but it is useless as anything. You already agreed that he is slow as molasses and his offensive numbers are not impressive at all.

I guess outside of your Cf/dg/ndsfklsngerl/854jgmier8% numbers you are touting what proof have you shown that Jagr has been great this year?

 

[Fig]

That’s just it though, like the stretch pass that worked so great for a season, teams have scouted it. They aren’t coming as deep, creating the separation. I find our zone entry is actually better with Rittich in net. It’s a great weapon to have but can actually be detrimental when over used.

IMO Smith passing the puck up isn't the problem. The problem is the formation in the neutral zone. When Smith passes the puck, we are too close to the opposition blue line. When Rittich is in net, we are closer to the red line. (I think). If our team stacks the red line with Smith passing up rather than blue line, then we can more aggressively enter the opposition zone IMO.

My theory on that was because the flatfooted players in the neutral zone have issues bringing in the puck into the opposing team's zone without speed. The puck is the fastest moving object yes, but without the speed and aggression of the players in the neutral zone, they hold the blue line and there's less room to work with.

Our players are great at rushing the puck into the zone. IMO Smith's current puck play is fine. My complaint would be that the neutral zone system design isn't fluid enough which means we lose momentum there. There are too many damn players flat footed and incapable of joining a rush situation with speed. I don't know how to resolve this, but I wonder if a 1:2:1 system (less puck carrier for rush and majority of players stacked on red line vs blue line could work.If Smith plays the puck and passes to the red line, then our team should have enough space to figure out a good rush or possession entry of multiple players into the opposing team's zone with speed. But if we stack at the blue line, then our players are sitting at 0-5 kmph on the blue line vs other players already cruising at 20-25 kmph.

On thing I've noticed is Gully's system relies too much on acceleration. Hartley's system IMO had our players cruising at 15-20 kmph constantly to get that extra step or two every time on the other team. IMO, Hartley's system trained many of our players to process the game at relatively high speeds.

 

[Fig]

I think Jagr is doing quite well. Only complaint is his speed is gone.

Agreed. I like what he brings.

Though yes, his speed and balance seems off and somehow I feel like there's something off with his stick work. But once he gets the puck, dang...

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

I haven’t been impressed with Jagr. He definitely gave that line a spark they needed. But he is way too slow out there to play defence imo.

 

[Volica]

System works fine. We out shoot and out chance most teams every night.
Specialty teams and puck luck; we're as good as gold.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

System works fine. We out shoot and out chance most teams every night.
Specialty teams and puck luck; we're as good as gold.

Exactly.

Hockey has 4 main elements that decide basically every game.

1. 5 on 5 play
2. Special teams
3. Goaltending
4. Puck luck

Gulutzan is really only responsible for 5 on 5 play. Look at our team at the start of both years he’s been coach. Just a disaster defensively. Horrible. Then they turn it around and become one of the best shot/high danger suppression teams in the league.

The PK and PP are other stories. But his 5 on 5 work has been good.

Even his player usage which is questionable (Brouwer). Ok he used Stajan, Glass, and let Jankowski, Mangiapane Hathaway prove they were ready.

Is it really such a bad thing to give veterans a chance to refund their game while the young guys play big roles at the start of the season in the AHL? I don’t think so.

That Brodie-Hamonic pairing is really turning a corner. He deserves some credit for sticking with them.

 

[Volica]

To add to Snipe;
He's learning to sit guys who don't deserve a spot. I feel like in his first year, he was more or less letting the inmates run the penitentiary. Guys who weren't good enough to play, playing every night. This year, Stajan's been a scratch, Glass is in the AHL... vets are not allowed to run around with impunity, and I think that bodes well for him as a coach.

Look at how the 4th lines' minutes have come down too. I still think they play too much, but even that's coming down and they're only playing in good spots.

 

[Baxterman]

Exactly.

Hockey has 4 main elements that decide basically every game.

1. 5 on 5 play
2. Special teams
3. Goaltending
4. Puck luck

Gulutzan is really only responsible for 5 on 5 play. Look at our team at the start of both years he’s been coach. Just a disaster defensively. Horrible. Then they turn it around and become one of the best shot/high danger suppression teams in the league.

The PK and PP are other stories. But his 5 on 5 work has been good.

Even his player usage which is questionable (Brouwer). Ok he used Stajan, Glass, and let Jankowski, Mangiapane Hathaway prove they were ready.

Is it really such a bad thing to give veterans a chance to refund their game while the young guys play big roles at the start of the season in the AHL? I don’t think so.

That Brodie-Hamonic pairing is really turning a corner. He deserves some credit for sticking with them.

Except watching the team and 5 on 5 they haven't looked good either. Yes I know there are some fancy stats that say they are but watching them they are not.

And yes he is responsible for the PP and PK. He may not be directly in terms of a day to day sense but he is responsible if it isn't working to make sure that somebody changes what's going on.

His player usage is beyond questionable it is flat out terrible and yes it is a bad thing to give veterans a chance to refund their games when it is costing you valuable points.

I am not sure the Brodie-Hamonic pair is turning around because they have found some sort of chemistry from playing together so no I would not give him any credit for that either. And again sticking with it cost us points so it better turn around to be great and get us some points back to come close to being a net positive.

 

[Skobel24]

I do think Jagr needs to be rotated in/out from here on. Give him a night off every 4-5 games, slot Familton in. Keep Jagr fresh.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Not even a big Corsi guy but the Flames are 2nd in the league in CF and 6th in CF%. So if that's the system's purpose I don't really see how people can say it's not working.

There's somethings I really like about it and some I don't. I like how the Flames break up the forecheck and force dump ins. They break out effectively and support the puck in their own zone very well. When executed properly it limits scoring chances for the other team. Our centers play high and clog the NZ effectively, our dmen stand up at our blueline, and with Smith back there to recover and distribute pucks it's a hard system to break.

What I don't like about it is that our blue line has been totally neutered. When you have dmen like Gio, Brodie, and Hamilton they should be joining the rush at every opportunity. The Flames are okay in transition but they aren't creating enough odd man rushes and they aren't creating enough speed through the neutral zone. I would have the dmen pinching way more too, especially if the center is back in position. Even if you make the safe play 9/10 times you're still giving the opponents time and space they haven't earned. Risk IMO is wildly underrated in today's NHL.

The special teams have been inconsistent, as special teams often are. Don't really feel the Flames are being nearly aggressive enough on the PP or PK. The PP setup takes forever to establish and when it does it takes forever to get anything through. How exactly is Johnny supposed to make a play on the half boards against a standard box PK? He should be closer to the goal line making one touch passes. The PP in general should be two, three passes at most and then drive the net. There is no urgency with the PP1 setup and maybe I'm just old-school but I'd like a guy with a clapper back there.

 

[Dack]

Jagr isn't good defensively but that hasn't stoped him from being effective IMO. Last night the 4th line had about as many scoring chances as they've had all season and he created most of them.

The points will come if he continues to generate scoring chances like he has so far. Who cares if he isn't good defensively the 4th line already sucked giving them a tiny bit of offence won't kill them. He also has the versatility to be able to take shifts in the top 9 when we need a goal.

I think he's been unlucky to only have 7 points.