Is Germany a part of the big nations now?

Mehar

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Apr 28, 2012
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You mean the most of this finnish squad could make 1s and 2nd line in NHL? ;) Are you kidding me? You look only to canadian roster only with a tunnel vision.

All the so called hockey experts had Finland as the favourite to win Gold, along with Russia before the tournament. Everyone agreed this was one of the weakest rosters Canada had ever sent. Now that Finland failed when it counted, the Finnish fans are trying to rewrite history and tell everyone that this Canadian team was a very good one (LOL).

You can be a NHL player, and a scrub, bad offensive player, and a 4th liner. Canada also has been disadvantaged at times in the past with the big ice surface in Europe, and different officiating than the NHL. We had to rely on a career backup Darcy Kuemper to win Gold. Our NHL players got shut out by Latvia 2-0, and barely made it to the QF, after starting 0-3. It was a miracle for this Underdog team to beat Russia, USA, and Finland. Europeans should applaud that great feat of this team, since this tournament is celebrated in Europe. It is ignored in Canada. Instead, Europeans fans are trying to tell us this was a very good Canadian roster on paper (LOL).
 

Lambo

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Jan 10, 2019
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All the so called hockey experts had Finland as the favourite to win Gold, along with Russia before the tournament. Everyone agreed this was one of the weakest rosters Canada had ever sent. Now that Finland failed when it counted, the Finnish fans are trying to rewrite history and tell everyone that this Canadian team was a very good one (LOL).

You can be a NHL player, and a scrub, bad offensive player, and a 4th liner. Canada also has been disadvantaged at times in the past with the big ice surface in Europe, and different officiating than the NHL. We had to rely on a career backup Darcy Kuemper to win Gold. Our NHL players got shut out by Latvia 2-0, and barely made it to the QF, after starting 0-3. It was a miracle for this Underdog team to beat Russia, USA, and Finland. Europeans should applaud that great feat of this team, since this tournament is celebrated in Europe. It is ignored in Canada. Instead, Europeans fans are trying to tell us this was a very good Canadian roster on paper (LOL).
A few Fans call this! Only they had a hope, that Magic Coach Jalonen could make a miracle again. But Gold and Silver with a "weak" roster is a very good performance. It is the Coach from Finland who made hope! You understand this? Not the roster! You looking only with a tunnel vision. Canada could only be magic with their Superstars. This is the truth! This canadien Team was on paper stronger than Finland. 2019 and 2021!
 
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Hasa92

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Aug 4, 2012
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What a joke. The Finnish fans before the tournament were even saying Finland had a better roster on paper than Canada (which is true). Now they lost, they resort to the NHL argument, and how they did not have a better team on paper. This Canadian team got shut out by Latvia 2-0, and started the tournament 0-3 with the same NHL players. They were even lucky to get in the QF. You can be a NHL player and still be a backup goalie like we had, and a bunch of 4th liners.
Nobody claimed that the Finnish roster was better, every Finn knew that this Finnish team had a weak roster, just like the 2019 one that actually did win the gold medal.

What was actually said was that this Finnish team was one of the favourites and that was only because of team chemistry and coaching.

The Canadian team this year on paper was much, much better than either one the 2019 or 2021 Finnish teams.
 
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When they started the Wirld Cup in 1996 asa continuation of the Canada cup they should have kept it going and played it regularly every four years. By this time it would have already gathered tradition and would be an established tournament.

Instead, it is some weird tournament played every now and then when there is time and willingness to get on with it.
 

NyQuil

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Jan 5, 2005
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When they started the Wirld Cup in 1996 asa continuation of the Canada cup they should have kept it going and played it regularly every four years. By this time it would have already gathered tradition and would be an established tournament.

Instead, it is some weird tournament played every now and then when there is time and willingness to get on with it.

To gain more credibility they also need to host it in Europe now and then.

I know they held some games overseas but the Finals at some point as well.

Seeing as its an NHL enterprise, it won't happen, but it would go a long way to establish legitimacy.
 

613Leafer

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May 26, 2008
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Draisaitl is obviously a franchise player and can go toe to toe with pretty much any player in the world from any country, and Gubaur is a legit goalie.

But after that, there's a significant drop off, and while a guy like Stutzle could be another stud, we still need to see him develop. So I think even secondary countries like Switzerland and Czech still have better depth of quality players than Germany, but Germany could make up that ground within a few years.

Slovakia is a shadow of what they used to be. Germany is probably past Slovakia at this point.
 

MoeTheHobo

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Jan 24, 2017
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I think that being a "Big 5" has more to do with mentality and expectations. You should be expected to fight for gold in just about every tournament. While a quarter final is realistic for Germany they aren't yet in a position to regularly go trough to the semis.
 

TheFinalWord

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Apr 25, 2005
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Draisaitl is obviously a franchise player and can go toe to toe with pretty much any player in the world from any country, and Gubaur is a legit goalie.

But after that, there's a significant drop off, and while a guy like Stutzle could be another stud, we still need to see him develop. So I think even secondary countries like Switzerland and Czech still have better depth of quality players than Germany, but Germany could make up that ground within a few years.

Slovakia is a shadow of what they used to be. Germany is probably past Slovakia at this point.

I remember back in 2004, Slovakia had the following forwards:

Bonda
Demitra
Gaborik
Hossa
Handzus
Nagy
Palffy
Satan
Stumpel
Zednik

The D had Chara and Visnovsky and then a pretty big drop-off.

They had the great fortune (sarcasm) of being put in a group with Canada, US and Russia. The 'North American' division. They went 0-3. But man, that was a scary set of forwards, at least for offence.
 

WarriorofTime

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Jul 3, 2010
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Hockey is a niche sport in Germany. We took some German business contacts to a Blackhawks game when they were in town a few years ago and none of them had ever been to a hockey game or understood the rules.
 

salamandra

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Aug 31, 2017
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Cernak - Jaros
Sekera - Marincin
Fehervary - Gernat
Cajkovsky - Knazko
Ceresnak - Daloga
others ... Rosandic, Janosik, Grman, Koch ...
Young talents: Nemec, Stacha, Mudrak, Becar, Erpejesi, Strbak, J. Chromiak, Bucko ...

Slovakia has better def. like germans ans swiss.

Tatar - L. Hudacek - Panik
Lantosi - Hrivik - Cehlarik
K. Pospisil - Kristof - Skalicky
M. Pospisil - Ruzicka - Kelemen
Jurco - Dano - Bakos
Krivosik - Griger - Studenic
Liska - Roman - Regenda
Chromiak , Cajkovic
Others ... Holesinsky, Sukel, Fominykh, Bucek, R. Bondra, Lunter, ....
young talents : Okuliar, Fasko Rudas, Zlnka, Petrovsky, Myklukha, Kaslik, ...
Top prospects: Mesar, Slafkovksy, Dvorksy

Half of the forwards are not even 23 years old. In slovak squad is not player like Draisaitl. But overall they are not worse than the germans.
 
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Eye of Ra

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Nov 15, 2008
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Yeah, Slovakia is better than Germany and Swiss right now, but i think some years from now Germany will be better and i think Swiss will be worse. Where is the swiss talents??
 
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Speyer

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Slovakia is definitely not better than Germany and Switzerland right now. Outside of Tatar and Cernak they dont have any above average NHL players. Yes they have a lot of young players but none of them is guaranteed to stick in the NHL long term and they dont have any drafted blue chip prospects. Maybe the 2004/2005 generation will turn the tide for them but thats still in the future. They also still rely on a couple of players that are going to retire sooner than later.

As far as Germany goes I feel like people are slightly overrating them as well because of a new wave of young talent. Stützle, Seider, Reichel, Peterka etc. are not all going to be stars or superstars on the NHL level in the future. Statistically at least some of them are bound to not reach their projected ceiling. Not every first round pick becomes a top six forward or a top pairing d man. And even if all of those players will pan out as projected its not likely that Germany will produce high and prospects at nearly the same rate in the future. The 2003 and 2004 birth years look already much weaker than their "golden generation". Smaller hockey nations like Switzerland, Slovakia and Germany will always have fluctuations when it comes to producing high end talent.
 
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salamandra

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Slovakia is definitely not better than Germany and Switzerland right now. Outside of Tatar and Cernak they dont have any above average NHL players. Yes they have a lot of young players but none of them is guaranteed to stick in the NHL long term and they dont have any drafted blue chip prospects. Maybe the 2004/2005 generation will turn the tide for them but thats still in the future. They also still rely on a couple of players that are going to retire sooner than later.

As far as Germany goes I feel like people are slightly overrating them as well because of a new wave of young talent. Stützle, Seider, Reichel, Peterka etc. are not all going to be stars or superstars on the NHL level in the future. Statistically at least some of them are bound to not reach their projected ceiling. Not every first round pick becomes a top six forward or a top pairing d man. And even if all of those players will pan out as projected its not likely that Germany will produce high and prospects at nearly the same rate in the future. The 2003 and 2004 birth years look already much weaker than their "golden generation". Smaller hockey nations like Switzerland, Slovakia and Germany will always have fluctuations when it comes to producing high end talent.

Panik, Sekera?

Outside of Draisaitl Germany dont have any above average NHL players.

Michaelis, Bergmann, Kuhnhackl ... they are not nhl players. Kahun in not better like Panik, Sturm is not better like Ruzicka. Others slovak Studenic, Lantosi, Jurco, Dano are better like Tiffels, Michaelis ...

Seider, Reichel and Peterka is future like Knazko, Chromiak, Cajkovic, Nemec, Slafkovsky, Mesar etc.
 

kudla

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May 11, 2016
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At the moment, Germany produces more high-end talent than Slovakia, but our junior teams beat Germany quite frequently. The question really is whether Peterka, Seider and Reichel pan out (I think Stutzle will be one of the best players in the league) and whether there will be more generations like 2002.
 
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Speyer

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Panik, Sekera?

Outside of Draisaitl Germany dont have any above average NHL players.

Michaelis, Bergmann, Kuhnhackl ... they are not nhl players. Kahun in not better like Panik, Sturm is not better like Ruzicka. Others slovak Studenic, Lantosi, Jurco, Dano are better like Tiffels, Michaelis ...

Seider, Reichel and Peterka is future like Knazko, Chromiak, Cajkovic, Nemec, Slafkovsky, Mesar etc.

Panik and Sekera are probably average for the NHL at this point, even though I have to admit that I am not super familiar with Sekera, but its not like he is a very young player anymore. Besides Draisaitl, Stützle will most likely be at least an above average NHL player. Seider has also a very high chance to be one. I feel like the 2000-2002 prospects from germany are significantly better than the ones from Slovakia (from the same birth years) and already able to make a difference at the National Team level. The most talented Slovakian prospects were born in 2004-2005 and are further away from contributing. Draisaitl is also a huge factor for Germany as he is a world class player that can make the difference in a best on best situation.
 
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Speyer

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At the moment, Germany produces more high-end talent than Slovakia, but our junior teams beat Germany quite frequently. The question really is whether Peterka, Seider and Reichel pan out (I think Stutzle will be one of the best players in the league) and whether there will be more generations like 2002.

I would disagree. If you look at the next few upcoming drafts, Slovakia probably has the best crops of prospects outside the top nations right now. Germanys streak of high end prospects seems to have ended, at least for the moment.
 

salamandra

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Aug 31, 2017
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Panik and Sekera are probably average for the NHL at this point, even though I have to admit that I am not super familiar with Sekera, but its not like he is a very young player anymore. Besides Draisaitl Stützle will most likely be at least an above average NHL player. Seider has also a very high chance to be one. I feel like the 2000-2002 prospects from germany are significantly better than the ones from Slovakia (from the same birth years) and already able to make a difference at the National Team level. The most talented Slovakian prospects were born in 2004-2005 and are further away from contributing. Draisaitl is also a huge factor for Germany as he is a world class player that can make the difference in a best on best situation.

Fehervary and Knazko also have very high sance to be an above average NHL players in the near future.

I accept, that Stutzle is future top player.
Bokk is very good, but not better like few slovak players born in 99 ( Ruzicka, Pospisil, Krivosik)
Germany has very strong players born 02 (Stutzle, Peterka, Reichel, Elias), but in others years it not so good.
Slovakia has better years 98,99,01.
Players born in 00 and 03 are smilar quality.

On one side, Sider is very high potentional player, but on the other side Knazko and Fehervary not? Why?

Draisaitl is huge factor I agree. But Cernak is new big star in Tampa. He became world class player accordint to journalists.
On the one hand Michaelis, Plachta, Kuhnhackl, Eisenschmid, Tiffels, Tuomie, Sturm ... are great but on the other hand Cehlarik, Dano, Jaros, Studenic, Lantosi, Hudacek, Hrivik, Bakos, Griger, Ruzicka, Krivosik, Liska, Kelemen are not?

Cehlarik won the prize for the best player of the championship. Hrivik won MVP swidish league. Gernat was the best defender in the Czech extra league. Ruzicka, Lantosi, Pospisil had more points like Bokk in AHL. This is nothing?
 
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Speyer

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Fehervary and Knazko also have very high sance to be an above average NHL players in the near future.

I accept, that Stutzle is future top player.
Bokk is very good, but not better like few slovak players born in 99 ( Ruzicka, Pospisil, Krivosik)
Germany has very strong players born 02 (Stutzle, Peterka, Reichel, Elias), but in others years it not so good.
Slovakia has better years 98,99,01.
Players born in 00 and 03 are smilar quality.

On one side, Sider is very high potentional player, but on the other side Knazko and Fehervary not? Why?

Draisaitl is huge factor I agree. But Cernak is new big star in Tampa. He became world class player accordint to journalists.
On the one hand Michaelis, Plachta, Kuhnhackl, Eisenschmid, Tiffels, Tuomie, Sturm ... are great but on the other hand Cehlarik, Dano, Jaros, Studenic, Lantosi, Hudacek, Hrivik, Bakos, Griger, Ruzicka, Krivosik, Liska, Kelemen are not?

Cehlarik won the prize for the best player of the championship. Hrivik won MVP swidish league. Gernat was the best defender in the Czech extra league. Ruzicka, Lantosi, Pospisil had more points like Bokk in AHL. This is nothing?

Seider was the best defender in the SHL this year at age 20. He is on a different level than Knazko (Who is still a junior player) and Fehevrvary (who is two years older). Those to are still promising prospects but I feel Seiders chance of becoming a high end player is bigger.

Look I dont argue that Slovakia is significantly worse than Germany (or Switzerland) as a hockey nation right now. Its very close in terms of depth as you correctly pointed out but I dont think you can claim that Slovakia is ahead of the other nations right now with their lack of high end players. We have to wait and see if the Slovakian prospects will reach their ceiling. Maybe Slovakia will be the strongest Nation of those three in 5 years but its to early to tell. But right now thats not yet the case, at least in my oppinion.
 

salamandra

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Aug 31, 2017
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Panik and Sekera are probably average for the NHL at this point, even though I have to admit that I am not super familiar with Sekera, but its not like he is a very young player anymore. Besides Draisaitl, Stützle will most likely be at least an above average NHL player. Seider has also a very high chance to be one. I feel like the 2000-2002 prospects from germany are significantly better than the ones from Slovakia (from the same birth years) and already able to make a difference at the National Team level. The most talented Slovakian prospects were born in 2004-2005 and are further away from contributing. Draisaitl is also a huge factor for Germany as he is a world class player that can make the difference in a best on best situation.

Who is the best german forward born in 2001? I think that slovak player Cajkovic is much better.
2002: F: Chromiak, Kaslik, Myklukha, Kolenic, Jedlicka, Faith, Lasak are also very good players
D: Knazko, Stacha, Fatul
I again accept that Stutzle is future top star, and I recognize you have a higher quality in the offensive. But slovak has more dept and players like Chromiak, Kaslik and Myklukha are very good players. Chromiak has also chance to be NHL player.
 

salamandra

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Aug 31, 2017
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Seider was the best defender in the SHL this year at age 20. He is on a different level than Knazko (Who is still a junior player) and Fehevrvary (who is two years older). Those to are still promising prospects but I feel Seiders chance of becoming a high end player is bigger.

Look I dont argue that Slovakia is significantly worse than Germany (or Switzerland) as a hockey nation right now. Its very close in terms of depth as you correctly pointed out but I dont think you can claim that Slovakia is ahead of the other nations right now with their lack of high end players. We have to wait and see if the Slovakian prospects will reach their ceiling. Maybe Slovakia will be the strongest Nation of those three in 5 years but its to early to tell. But right now thats not yet the case, at least in my oppinion.

Speyer I do not claim that Slovakia is the best of them. I also think that they are on similar level (GER, SUI, SVK). But it's weird that players like Tatar, Halak, Cernak, Sekera, Hrivik are overlooked. I agree that Josi, Grauber and Draisaitl are top stars, but ohters not now. And Cernak (Hischier) are very close to them.
 
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Speyer

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Sep 23, 2016
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Speyer I do not claim that Slovakia is the best of them. I also think that they are on similar level (GER, SUI, SVK). But it's weird that players like Tatar, Halak, Cernak, Sekera, Hrivik are overlooked. I agree that Josi, Grauber and Draisaitl are top stars, but ohters not now. And Cernak (Hischier) are very close to them.

Ok maybe I missunderstood then I kind off thought you said that you saw Slovakia as clearly the strongest country out of the three. Right now I personally think its very close with maybe Switzerland or Germany have a slight edge. But this can change easily in the future and will depend on how the respective prospects will turn out...
 
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salamandra

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Aug 31, 2017
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Ok maybe I missunderstood then I kind off thought you said that you saw Slovakia as clearly the strongest country out of the three. Right now I personally think its very close with maybe Switzerland or Germany have a slight edge. But this can change easily in the future and will depend on how the respective prospects will turn out...

Thank you for your opinion, you have a great overview.
 

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