Is every other team more disciplined, is it a ref bias, or what is it?

Discussion in 'Vancouver Canucks' started by Bougieman, Oct 23, 2013.

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  1. Bougieman

    Bougieman Registered User

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    Does anyone know where I can find a stat that will tell me how many games (out of the last, say, 100 games, including playoffs) where the Canucks have had more powerplays than their opposition in a game? What that percentage is, perhaps?

    Because it seems, just to my casual (and ongoing) perception, to be incredibly lopsided in the other teams favor.

    Now, this wouldn't be surprising if this team was incredibly undisciplined, or loaded with goons, but as it stands -- I don't get it.

    I'm not necessarily saying that is a ref bias (although it wouldn't shock me), because it could something else. Maybe other teams are playing smarter and more disciplined. Or maybe it's just totally in my (and other people I've seen complaining about this) head.

    That's exactly why I'd like to see that aforementioned stat.
     
  2. Lawzy

    Lawzy Registered User

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    You'd be better off asking this question over in the 'In the Numbers' section of NHL general.

    For what it's worth tonight's game may not be the best example, the Islanders are the most disciplined team in the NHL so far this season.

    Some real quick number crunching for broad numbers (not exactly what you're asking) tells me that in the last 63 games (including SJ series) we have been shorthanded 232 times and on the powerplay 204 times.

    If we don't include the SJ series it's much closer (remember the series was 24 to 10 in favor of SJ).

    I don't think it's nearly as big of an issue as our fan base is suggesting it is. Although it is a bit alarming considering our possession numbers.



    If nobody in the stats section can help you out by this weekend drop me a PM and I'll create them myself, I'm just a tad bit busy until Saturday.
     
  3. DS7

    DS7 Registered User

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    I'd say it was a product of Tort's aggressive system, but this was also an issue under AV.

    We're still being punished for 2011 with the embellishing on the SC stage. With our standing so low, Refs probably won't give a shi*t whether or not they made the right call against us or not, nor will they be inclined to do make up calls. A reputation is hard to shake off, and even if we cleaned up our game, they probably aren't even giving us the benefit of the doubt.

    Total PP time probably doesn't tell the story, does anyone know if the league tracks PP opportunities given when the game is tied, when we have the lead, or when we're behind? I'd like to see how our PP time is broken down based on that.
     
  4. David71

    David71 Registered User

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    ever since vancouver had a lethal powerplay in 2011, some of the guys embellish too much, kesler/burrows/lappy *when he was here* sell calls. now the refs are clearly hating the team i guess and not giving them much.
     
  5. Reverend Mayhem

    Reverend Mayhem Fire this man

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    I can't remember the last time a Canuck dove twice in one game, but I think it was Kesler in game 1 vs LA...a long ass time ago.

    No doubt we are finally being punished for our past wrongdoings, though it is patently unjust.
     
  6. me2

    me2 Calling out the crap

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    It's not just the calls/no calls but the nature of them. Some decisions (call/non-call) being made that could only be made by predetermination, there is no other explanation for some of them.
     
  7. Ainec

    Ainec Banned

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    This reffing bias and bs has been like this against us for years

    really puts me off the game
     
  8. Drop the Sopel

    Drop the Sopel Feaster famine

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    A lot of it is poor habits insilled by AV and bis unwillingness to hold players accountable for poor penalties. It will take time to change their ways.

    Even tonight, I found the majority of calls that weren't made that could have been were Canuck fouls. Too much using the stick to obstruct. Do what the opposition does to the Sedins at will - pin the opposing forwards to the boards for a 2 count. The league has stopped calling this and we're not taking advantage of it...
     
  9. Ainec

    Ainec Banned

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    When we have we get called
     
  10. LeftCoast

    LeftCoast Registered User

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    Two of the the three penalties called tonight on Henrik were ridiculous and the other must have been out of the camera's view.

    On the second penalty he was blatantly hooked and thrown to the ice and he grabbed the guy's stick as he got up and was called for holding the stick.

    The other call was for tripping when the Islander player stepped on Henrik's stick. This call took us off the power play and was a major shift in momentum.

    The other call against Henrik was a high sticking call that must have happened off camera as everyone watching thought the whistle was on Luongo for knocking contacting the puck with a high stick. Instead, it's a penalty against Henrik who wasn't in the same zone.

    If that's what we can expect for officiating, it's going to be a long season.
     
  11. Gumballthechewy

    Gumballthechewy Chew On Me!

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    It's a mix of terrible, terrible reffing and a dash of bias.
     
  12. Wizeman*

    Wizeman* Guest

    Canucks get the least amount of power plays in the league.

    Canucks are a puck possession team . How is it every team that plays the Canucks magically doesnt take penalties trying to get the puck away from us? These same teams get penalized when playing other teams. Other teams get lots of powerplays.

    A team that gets the least amount of powerplays should also be penalized the least. Right? Seems reasonable.

    Not the Canucks.
     
  13. luongo321

    luongo321 Registered User

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    Plenty of players on plenty of teams embellish, just look at the sharks last playoffs. People like to say 'oh the canucks have a reputation and that's why they aren't getting calls'. That's complete bs because of all of the other teams that are allowed to get away with embellishment that is just as blatant. Some of the refs are just biased against the Canucks. It makes me sick. I think the Auger incident is still haunting us, but we can't prove anything because none of the refs are dumb enough to run their mouths before games to canucks players. These guys don't have to answer to anyone. They can be as biased as they want and the nhl management doesn't seem to give a damn. They are probably in favour of it.

    If there is one guy that should be under review it's Kelly Sutherland. That guy has it in for the Sedins.
     
  14. bure 96

    bure 96 Registered User

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    Sharks are the biggest embellishers in the league currently and they have the most PPs in the league, so it clearly isn't that. The diving Sharks are averaging 5.2 PPs per game.
     
  15. Edo

    Edo The Mightiest Club

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    Have to figure that Vancouver will change the approach of not saying anything and just taking it come April. This is as bad as it can get and having Tortorella harp on the referees will eventually take it's toll swinging calls in our favour.
     
  16. Hammer79

    Hammer79 Registered User

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    For us it started midway during the 2010-2011 season, although seeds of it went back even before the Auger incident. There was a mid-season adjustment to the penalty threshold, and our PP opportunities dropped off the map. Of course, that was our team's strength so it hit us hard.

    As for this season, I really hope that this is some kind of statistical glitch and not simply bias against our team and the Senators, and bias in favor of the Sharks. It's hard not to be suspicious though.
     
  17. David71

    David71 Registered User

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    okay then fair enough almost every team embellishes. maybe the refs just hate the canucks in general.
     
  18. Blue Suede Shoes

    Blue Suede Shoes hound dog

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    This is kind of long, but I have some thoughts on the issue.


    There's something called the just world hypothesis. It states that it is a natural inclination for humans to justify anything that happens as fair. For example, in an experiment, they showed a group of people a picture (a headshot) of a man. They told the group that this man was found guilty in a court. The group of people gave words to describe the man in the picture, saying he looked "mean", "aggressive", "untrustworthy", etc. They showed the exact same picture to a second group of people, but this time, they told the group that the man was found innocent in a court. This second group of people described the man as "caring", "gentle" etc.

    What we know is that people will justify anything that happens, especially when a source of power is the one handing out the decision. I notice people doing this all the time, and I can see this happening in this thread a little bit. We want to believe that things are fair. But sometimes, (and likely frequently), things just are not fair.

    It is not debatable that the refereeing is unfair against us. I have even done scientific (empirical) experiments to test this, as to remove potential personal bias. The results were shocking.

    The only question is this: is it a coincidence or is there some kind of agenda against the team? I think to some extent is is just a coincidence, taking the form of incompetence in refereeing. However, when you see such a large, continuous discrepancy in the refereeing and decisions, you have to look for patterns and explanations.



    So why could there be a bias against us? There are 2 obvious answers in my view.

    #1 Systemic: Hockey is a business, a business is about making money. Polls have shown that the Canucks are the most disliked team, you can also observe this while listening to pretty much any media source. So if the Canucks have a harder time in a game, or lose the game, more people will be happy, and more money will be generated. (Furthermore, there is never any fear of losing the Canucks fanbase because they will never stop supporting the team - even if they desperately want to.)

    #2 Personal: It's fairly well known what type of personality Mike Gillis has, and it's widely speculated that he rubs some people the wrong way. Knowing his stubbornness and arrogance, it's not hard to imagine him clashing with anyone from an individual referee to Ron Maclean to Gary Bettman.


    Whatever the explanation, we are not being treated fairly by the officiating (or supplemental discipline btw - Dirty Duncan Keith is laughing at Edler's 5 game suspension)
     
  19. LiveeviL

    LiveeviL No unique points

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    NHL could use an ombudsman.
     
  20. bsjezz

    bsjezz Registered User

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    we've been away a lot this year, remember. the home crowd always gets a bit of a voice in generating make-up calls and the like. that said, i think the discipline system in the nhl is becoming a parody of itself: how is a "make-up call" even a thing? you call a penalty if you're a ref and you stick by it: you don't get to erase it later on by making a margin call. there needs to be better standards: the rules need to be more clearly defined, and ahered to in a standardized fashion. if the on-ice officiators can't do that, then it's time to integrate technology.

    game management. what a stupid idea.
     
  21. Wilch

    Wilch Unregistered User

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    Hired by the Bruins?
     
  22. Lemurion

    Lemurion Registered User

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    According to the NHL, the Canucks had 165 PP Opportunities during the regular season last year, and were shorthanded 169 times, for an average of 3.44/3.52 PPs/TS per game over a 48 game season.

    So far this year, we're sitting at 2.63 PP opportunities per game over 11 games, which includes the 6 PP opportunities we got in each of the first two games. Since then, we've been averaging 1.89 opportunities per game when the League average is 3.7. We've have fewer opportunities 8 times, the same number once, and more opportunities than the opponent twice.

    What makes it really interesting is that we actually take fewer penalties per game than the League average, giving up 3.5 PP opportunities per game rather than 3.7. Yes, it's a small sample size, but it does raise questions.

    I will be really curious to see how things work out by the half-way point in the season.
     
  23. NYVanfan

    NYVanfan Registered User

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    ive been wondering about this too... i have been screaming at the tv way too much of late, yet I know that doesn't qualify as evidence.

    would really like to see a team by team analysis of PPs for and against, correlated with shots for / against, and O zone time.

    My suspicion is that relative to any other team, they have had more O zone time, more puck possession and have out-shot opponents, yet are way behind on the PP for/against ratio. And that shouldn't happen....to me would be the cleanest evidence of bias, if it exists. Alternatively, it could just be my tinfoil hat.

    Any stats whizzes hereabouts wanna dig into that?
    cheers
     
  24. y2kcanucks

    y2kcanucks I Am Negan Sponsor

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    There's no reffing bias or big conspiracy against the Canucks.
     
  25. NYVanfan

    NYVanfan Registered User

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    ok, i did it myself
    hope this table is legible, but looking at NHL stats -- mind you this is only through 10 games, but I looked at the ratio of shots for to shots against and the ratio for PPs for to PPs against ... ranked both and sorted by the rank differential, and came up with this --
    PHP:
                      PP/G vs        S/G vs    
          GP    Rnk    PPA
    /G   Rnk   SA/G   Diff
    VAN    11    29    0.74    7     1.13    
    -22
    LAK    10    26    0.81    8     1.10    
    -18
    STL    7     24    0.84    9     1.07    
    -15
    WPG    10    25    0.83    10    1.05    
    -15
    MIN    10    16    1.03    2     1.44    
    -14
    PHX    10    23    0.85    15    0.98    
    -8
    DET    10    27    0.79    20    0.94    
    -7
    MTL    9     19    0.97    12    1.01    
    -7
    NSH    10    20    0.94    13    1.00    
    -7
    ANA    9     9     1.16    5     1.21    
    -4
    CHI    9     7     1.19    3     1.30    
    -4
    NYR    7     28    0.79    24    0.88    
    -4
    OTT    8     30    0.55    28    0.80    
    -2
    PIT    9     5     1.23    4     1.23    
    -1
    TBL    8     17    1.00    16    0.97    
    -1
    SJS    9     1     1.62    1     1.62    0
    PHI    8     22    0.87    23    0.89    1
    CAR    9     8     1.18    11    1.02    3
    BOS    7     2     1.30    6     1.17    4
    EDM    10    17    1.00    21    0.92    4
    DAL    8     21    0.91    27    0.82    6
    CBJ    9     10    1.14    18    0.96    8
    NJD    9     6     1.20    14    0.98    8
    COL    9     14    1.03    25    0.86    11
    WSH    9     11    1.13    22    0.92    11
    FLA    10    13    1.06    26    0.82    13
    NYI    9     3     1.28    17    0.96    14
    TOR    10    15    1.03    29    0.78    14
    CGY    9     4     1.28    19    0.95    15
    BUF    10    12    1.09    30    0.77    18
    so only Ott has a worse PPs for-PPs against ratio, but theyre also nearly last in SF/SA ratio, so that's in line, whereas we're #7 in that stat.

    I couldn't find zone time stats, but did also look at a few metrics which could be takes as measures of controlling play/dominating --
    We are #5 in Missed SHots
    We are #8 in ratio of Takeways to Giveaways
    We are #11 in FO%
    We are #13 in Hits

    average the rankings of all 4 of those cats and we #2 only to Phoenix, who has better hits and FO%.
    Looking just as missed shots and TA/GA, we rank #1.

    So in summary, we are top 10 team (in some cases high top 10) on a per game basis in shots for vs against, missed shots, takeaways vs giveaways; just outside the top 10 in faceoffs and hits ... yet we are next to last in powerplay opportunities for vs against.

    **** you NHL!

    in all seriousness, i do expect this to level out, as this is a small sample size ... but it does validate what I've been feeling watching these games -- lotta calls going against us relative to the extent to which we've been controlling play
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013

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