Helene St. James Is Detroit Still a Desirable Destination?

[JmanWingsFan]

This question is so stupid... Of course Detroit is still a free agent destination. The Tigers have no problem signing players. The Lions have no problem signing players (And they are the Lions). Heck, the Pistons signed some guys in free agency as well. This ain't about the city one bit. That's easily debunked and the myth should die a horrible death by a really hot fire.

What has happened is that, by a stroke of incredible bad luck, every major target the Wings have gone after have had ulterior motives. And it just so happens that those motives were such that the Wings could not possibly meet them.

Suter wanted to play with Parise and satisfy the wife. Detroit couldn't geographically offer that.

Dan Boyle wanted to go to New York City. Detroit is not New York City. They couldn't geographically offer that.

Detroit did not have Matt Niskanen's mentor as an assistant coach, nor did they overpay for Brooks Orpik. They couldn't offer that.

Detroit didn't have Evgeni Malkin and Sidney Crosby. They couldn't offer that to Ehrhoff. Only one team could.

It was not geographically or physically possible for the Wings to offer what these FA's had. It was beyond their abilities to offer these things to free agents.

Ken Holland's not a sales person. His job is to bring in personal by trade, draft, or FA. We draft well, which is why we don't like to trade. So our only other measure of adding talent is FA. It's hard bringing in talent because you're dealing with multi-millionaires who have everything they want and are playing a sports game. They'll go wherever they want to go, especially if they have something specific in mind.

When Ken Holland says he doesn't know what happened, he's not saying he doesn't know why the FA's didn't want to come. He likely means that he doesn't know how the heck all of their FA targets of late have had these ulterior motives that the Wings couldn't offer. He doesn't know how they got this unlucky. I'm pretty sure he knows why they didn't bite. He's much more in the know than your average NHL Insider working for TSN or CBC.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

I always thought of this saying as an urban legend. the truth is before the cap people went to Detroit because they made a lot of money. post salary cap the only person to take less money would be heartless Hossa and the reality is he just wanted a team to carry his lazy ass to a cup.

I was listening to 97.1 on deadline day and human resources guys from multiple Fortune 500 companies called in to say they had to offer significantly more money to people to get them to come work in SE Michigan.

The Wings used to have the advantage of overpaying, and since they consistently won they could sometimes even get a good deal. But people who think we were getting discounts forget that we were, at one point, paying both Dominik Hasek and Curtis Joseph over 8 million a seasons.

A team on the downslide in a city as wretched as Detroit with a GM as useless as Holland has no draw for UFAs.

 

[icKx]

This question is so stupid... Of course Detroit is still a free agent destination. The Tigers have no problem signing players. The Lions have no problem signing players (And they are the Lions). Heck, the Pistons signed some guys in free agency as well. This ain't about the city one bit. That's easily debunked and the myth should die a horrible death by a really hot fire.

What has happened is that, by a stroke of incredible bad luck, every major target the Wings have gone after have had ulterior motives. And it just so happens that those motives were such that the Wings could not possibly meet them.

Suter wanted to play with Parise and satisfy the wife. Detroit couldn't geographically offer that.

Dan Boyle wanted to go to New York City. Detroit is not New York City. They couldn't geographically offer that.

Detroit did not have Matt Niskanen's mentor as an assistant coach, nor did they overpay for Brooks Orpik. They couldn't offer that.

Detroit didn't have Evgeni Malkin and Sidney Crosby. They couldn't offer that to Ehrhoff. Only one team could.

It was not geographically or physically possible for the Wings to offer what these FA's had. It was beyond their abilities to offer these things to free agents.

Ken Holland's not a sales person. His job is to bring in personal by trade, draft, or FA. We draft well, which is why we don't like to trade. So our only other measure of adding talent is FA. It's hard bringing in talent because you're dealing with multi-millionaires who have everything they want and are playing a sports game. They'll go wherever they want to go, especially if they have something specific in mind.

When Ken Holland says he doesn't know what happened, he's not saying he doesn't know why the FA's didn't want to come. He likely means that he doesn't know how the heck all of their FA targets of late have had these ulterior motives that the Wings couldn't offer. He doesn't know how they got this unlucky. I'm pretty sure he knows why they didn't bite. He's much more in the know than your average NHL Insider working for TSN or CBC.

With regard to free agency and trades he absolutely is. Drafting is primarily about scouting.

That's why he, Chelios and Mr. I hopped on a jet to pitch the Detroit Red Wings brand to Ryan Suter in person.

That's also why he enlisted Lidstrom to make a phone call to Dekeyser to sell him on Detroit.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

With regard to free agency and trades he absolutely is. Drafting is primarily about scouting.

That's why he, Chelios and Mr. I hopped on a jet to pitch the Detroit Red Wings brand to Ryan Suter in person.

That's also why he enlisted Lidstrom to make a phone call to Dekeyser to sell him on Detroit.

He also used to be awesome at it, convincing players to take prices lower than Nick? Brilliant. He's become very complacent is the problem. And then makes terrible desperation moves to compensate for a roster that he let slip into obscurity.

 

[Hobnobs]

I was listening to 97.1 on deadline day and human resources guys from multiple Fortune 500 companies called in to say they had to offer significantly more money to people to get them to come work in SE Michigan.

The Wings used to have the advantage of overpaying, and since they consistently won they could sometimes even get a good deal. But people who think we were getting discounts forget that we were, at one point, paying both Dominik Hasek and Curtis Joseph over 8 million a seasons.

A team on the downslide in a city as wretched as Detroit with a GM as useless as Holland has no draw for UFAs.

8 millions for Hasek is not really overpayment, tho... and Joseph was payed 6.5 mill so not really overpayment there either.
DRW also signed a 2nd-AST with 37 goals at 4 mill and Brett Hull to 3.5... Team didnt really overpay for anyone they signed at market value or took discounts.

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

I'm not usually a great Puck Daddy fan, but this is a good article.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/why-do-the-red-wings-repulse-free-agents-200816192.html

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

It's idiotic for Ehrhoff to take a one year deal when someone was willing to give him five. Given how crazy these contracts have been, he's going to end up giving back like 15% in escrow, and then have to do this again next year-- when he's older and potentially having to prove he's a legit elite guy. You don't just leave $20 MM+ on the table as if it were chump change.

But, wasn't that the case with Hossa in 2009?

 

[Fugu]

But, wasn't that the case with Hossa in 2009?

Indeed. It's why you almost never see it happen.

At the same time, the Wings actually had just won the Cup and had essentially the same team in place. Pittsburgh has been underachieving for some time, and imo, are no match for LA, Chicago et al. They are younger than Detroit though.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

With regard to free agency and trades he absolutely is.

There's a huge difference between trying to get people to spend money on something they probably don't need and can buy elsewhere and trying to get millionaires playing a game to take your money and play for your team. For one, Holland is the buyer and not the seller. Secondly, Millionaire sports players are a whole different animal than your typical middle/working class consumer. As we've seen in recent history, Millionaires have everything they need, so they act on their own agendas. They might want to go to a certain geographical location, play for a certain coach, play with a certain someone, ect... These are things that make it impossible to "sell" someone on you organization that can't possibly offer these things.

So when you judge a GM for not being able to sell people on your team, you're ignoring the context of the situation. There might be a certain level of selling ability involved when a FA isn't looking for something specific... But how often do we come across the big FAs, and there is a consensus destination that made every sense in the world for him, and he ended up going there? I would say a whole lot. A very whole lot. And that only confirms that millionaires have minds of their own that aren't easily convinced of anything.

 

[Claypool]

It's idiotic for Ehrhoff to take a one year deal when someone was willing to give him five.

Ehrhoff is going to be paid $1 million dollars a year for the next 15 years from Buffalo. He's able to take that financial risk.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

There's a huge difference between trying to get people to spend money on something they probably don't need and can buy elsewhere and trying to get millionaires playing a game to take your money and play for your team. For one, Holland is the buyer and not the seller. Secondly, Millionaire sports players are a whole different animal than your typical middle/working class consumer. As we've seen in recent history, Millionaires have everything they need, so they act on their own agendas. They might want to go to a certain geographical location, play for a certain coach, play with a certain someone, ect... These are things that make it impossible to "sell" someone on you organization that can't possibly offer these things.

So when you judge a GM for not being able to sell people on your team, you're ignoring the context of the situation. There might be a certain level of selling ability involved when a FA isn't looking for something specific... But how often do we come across the big FAs, and there is a consensus destination that made every sense in the world for him, and he ended up going there? I would say a whole lot. A very whole lot. And that only confirms that millionaires have minds of their own that aren't easily convinced of anything.

I agree with all of this, and I wanted to chime in that we haven't been sensitive enough to the context of our own situation in Detroit.

Our situation right reminds me of those former models and beauty queens who hit about 45-50 and just assume they've still got it—because they assumed that they'd always have it. That's how we are in Detroit these days. We had the good days, and we just expected them to run on forever. Now we're slowing down, and there's that kind of irrational anger. How could this happen to us? and we take it out on Holland. That's not to say that Holland is perfect, because he's very far from that. But he isn't the reason the good times are over.

and now we look around and we see other teams living that dream. LA is on top of the world. Chicago is doing it all. Pittsburgh just signed Ehrhoff to the kind of deal that Detroit used to make, where players would leave money on the table for a chance to win. It's tough to watch others take our place. But the truth is that it was always going to happen.

The good news is that unlike our former beauty queen, we get more shots at it. We can get back there. But it's going to take some time and patience. and on the topic of how exactly that should be achieved, we can argue that Holland isn't getting it done. But as for how Detroit fell this low? That was a matter of time.

 

[probertrules24]

I agree with all of this, and I wanted to chime in that we haven't been sensitive enough to the context of our own situation in Detroit.

Our situation right reminds me of those former models and beauty queens who hit about 45-50 and just assume they've still got it—because they assumed that they'd always have it. That's how we are in Detroit these days. We had the good days, and we just expected them to run on forever. Now we're slowing down, and there's that kind of irrational anger. How could this happen to us? and we take it out on Holland. That's not to say that Holland is perfect, because he's very far from that. But he isn't the reason the good times are over.

and now we look around and we see other teams living that dream. LA is on top of the world. Chicago is doing it all. Pittsburgh just signed Ehrhoff to the kind of deal that Detroit used to make, where players would leave money on the table for a chance to win. It's tough to watch others take our place. But the truth is that it was always going to happen.

The good news is that unlike our former beauty queen, we get more shots at it. We can get back there. But it's going to take some time and patience. and on the topic of how exactly that should be achieved, we can argue that Holland isn't getting it done. But as for how Detroit fell this low? That was a matter of time.

Well put. As long as we don't become that Janice Dickinson well be OK.

 

[Frk It]

When she appeared on TSN 1050 and WGR 550, St. James also talked about the Wings' free agency strikeouts, suggesting that Dan Boyle went to New York because he believed that the Rangers are closer to winning a Cup (in addition to the Martin St. Louis friendship thing), and she stated that the Wings were most interested in Matt Niskanen, but weren't quite willing to match the Capitals' compensation for a player with one fantastic season (though some of her other Wings beat writers disagree with that monetary assessment).

http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comment...-on-athanasiou-shopping-around-and-trade-talk

So from what I gathered.

Boyle wanted to go to a team with a better shot to win.
Ehrhoff wanted to go to a team with a better shot to win.
Niskanen wanted a little more $$$ (probably good we didn't)
Stralman wanted a little more term (probably good we didn't)

The only thing that really sucks IMO is Ehrhoff and Boyle. We weren't seen as an option for a team that can compete to win it all in their eyes, and were not interested in more money and years from us.

That's what I think stings more than anything.

 

[InjuredChoker]

i'm glad boyle went to NYR. three years for 38yr old that is bottom pair pp specialist.

ehrhoff sucks but they were never getting him on a 3 yr deal.

nisky, indifferent. it would've been risky but he is good 2nd pairing guy.

strålman, i'd have easily taken him with that deal. amazing how no one else offered him 5 years and bolland, orpik, stoner etc. get what they got.

 

[Vladdy84]

http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comment...-on-athanasiou-shopping-around-and-trade-talk

So from what I gathered.

Boyle wanted to go to a team with a better shot to win.
Ehrhoff wanted to go to a team with a better shot to win.
Niskanen wanted a little more $$$ (probably good we didn't)
Stralman wanted a little more term (probably good we didn't)

The only thing that really sucks IMO is Ehrhoff and Boyle. We weren't seen as an option for a team that can compete to win it all in their eyes, and were not interested in more money and years from us.

That's what I think stings more than anything.

I don't really think Pitt has a better chance of winning. They just have a more potent and prolific PP. Flower is a hot mess.

Rangers, sure. I guess. Because of King and their D. But I could also see them being one and done in the playoffs next season.

 

[Frk It]

i'm glad boyle went to NYR. three years for 38yr old that is bottom pair pp specialist.

Rangers signed him for 2 years. And he's not a bottom pairing defenseman. For the millionth time.

 

[Frk It]

I don't really think Pitt has a better chance of winning. They just have a more potent and prolific PP. Flower is a hot mess.

Rangers, sure. I guess. Because of King and their D. But I could also see them being one and done in the playoffs next season.

They have Fleury, but we have the worst defense among all playoff teams.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Rangers signed him for 2 years. And he's not a bottom pairing defenseman. For the millionth time.

we offered 3 years. which is pretty LOL worthy as he only wanted 2.

to me he's a bottom pairing defenseman. based on my viewings, stats and conversations of him with other sharks fans.

 

[Frk It]

we offered 3 years. which is pretty LOL worthy as he only wanted 2.

to me he's a bottom pairing defenseman. based on my viewings, stats and conversations of him with other sharks fans.

Ok. Well he didn't play that role last year. And he's not playing that role next year.

So whether or not you think that's what he is, he's not.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Ok. Well he didn't play that role last year. And he's not playing that role next year.

So whether or not you think that's what he is, he's not.

he should've been playing in that role last year. and probably should for the duration of his next deal. one of the issues with those sharks.

KFQ will was playing top 4 mins and might do it next year and i don't see him as a top dman, not on a good team. if he's there, you know you have issues.

 

[Frk It]

he should've been playing in that role last year. and probably should for the duration of his next deal. one of the issues with those sharks.

KFQ will was playing top 4 mins and might do it next year and i don't see him as a top dman, not on a good team. if he's there, you know you have issues.

I disagree. So do the Rangers. 4.5 million wouldn't be given to a bottom pairing D. They also chose to get him over keep the guy you continue to lobby for.

Let's just leave it at we disagree.

But facts are facts. He's not a bottom pairing defenseman, even if that's what you think he should be.

 

[InjuredChoker]

sather also signed tanner glass (arguably the worst player in the league) for 3 yr 1.45 mil AAV deal.

seems like very sather thing to do to let his 2nd (or 3rd at worst) best dman walk and sign 38 yr old ex-top player instead.

but yes, it's probably better drop this as we aren't going to agree on this one.


HSJ apparently didn't mention robidas, i think that was location thing. wanted to go to toronto. (good thing too imo).

it doesn't seem they didn't want to come here bc of city.. tallon said on TSN radio that he's been selling florida on lower taxes and weather and such.. hasn't worked. said they want chance to win.

 

[Frk It]

sather also signed tanner glass (arguably the worst player in the league) for 3 yr 1.45 mil AAV deal.

seems like very sather thing to do to let his 2nd (or 3rd at worst) best dman walk and sign 38 yr old ex-top player instead.

but yes, it's probably better drop this as we aren't going to agree on this one.


HSJ apparently didn't mention robidas, i think that was location thing. wanted to go to toronto. (good thing too imo).

it doesn't seem they didn't want to come here bc of city.. tallon said on TSN radio that he's been selling florida on lower taxes and weather and such.. hasn't worked. said they want chance to win.

Yeah, Robidas wanted to be closer to home.

And I agree, that I think the city doesn't factor in too much.

 

[ADifferentTim]

As a non-Wings fan/outsider looking in, it should be.

The Red Wings have a championship pedigree unlike any other American NHL franchise; the fact it has the most Stanley Cup exclusively amongst American NHL franchises is a legitimate testament to that claim.

Besides, the fact Detroit is an NFL town mitigates the pressure off the Red Wings, especially when the NFL is an American Midwest institution.

 

[Bench]

Besides, the fact Detroit is an NFL town mitigates the pressure off the Red Wings, especially when the NFL is an American Midwest institution.

Somebody forgot to tell the Lions.