Is catching Gretzky in goals enough for Ovechkin to surpass Crosby?

Discussion in 'Polls - (hockey-related only)' started by Dumb and nobody, Nov 1, 2019.

?

If Ovechkin passes Gretzky, is he greater than Crosby?

  1. Yes, regardless of how he does it

    34.1%
  2. Yes, but only if he doesn't do it as a compiler

    3.3%
  3. As long as he comes close, he surpasses Crosby

    5.6%
  4. No, even then Crosby is greater

    43.6%
  5. Ovechkin is already greater

    13.3%
  1. HockeySniper

    HockeySniper Registered User

    Joined:
    May 13, 2018
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    60
    Trophy Points:
    26
    Gender:
    Male
    Don’t put scoring and assists together and points as “scoring.” Pretty sure Ovi is only a few goals behind Crosby with 40 less games. And we all know Ovi gets shadowed all game long.
     
  2. Thenameless

    Thenameless Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,020
    Likes Received:
    1,067
    Trophy Points:
    109
    The other difference is Crosby's 3 Cups to Ovechkin's 1, while Ovechkin's been on 3 Presidents' Trophy winning teams while Crosby has been on none.
     
    Sour Shoes, wetcoast and authentic like this.
  3. KoozNetsOff 92

    KoozNetsOff 92 Hala Madrid

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    5,329
    Likes Received:
    2,722
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Wow I didn't know there were teams called the Pittsburgh Crosby's and the Washington Ovechkin's.
     
    JasonRoseEh and tacogeoff like this.
  4. Plural

    Plural Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    32,572
    Likes Received:
    3,296
    Trophy Points:
    157
    Those playoffs OV actually did play rather good all-around hockey. He wasn't some Lehtinen out there, but he certainly played well all over the ice.
     
  5. Midnight Judges

    Midnight Judges Registered User Sponsor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    8,102
    Likes Received:
    3,386
    Trophy Points:
    126
    The implication here seems to be that Crosby is responsible for the cups but not the lack of President's trophies, and Ovechkin is not responsible for the President's trophies but is responsible for the lack of cups.

    That's audacious.

    Are the Pens so bad without Crosby? They had no problem making the playoffs without him. In fact they posted their best goal differential of the past 20 years in 2012 when Crosby played only 22 games. They also had no problem winning a cup in 2016 despite Crosby being a complete passenger against the Capitals and scoring at a 65 point 21 goal pace as a minus player in 24 games.

    Of course, the truth is hockey is a team sport and no one player has ever controlled the destiny of an entire team. To say otherwise is to acknowledge that you don't comprehend the game.
     
    JasonRoseEh, enj92, Randyne and 2 others like this.
  6. Thenameless

    Thenameless Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,020
    Likes Received:
    1,067
    Trophy Points:
    109
    A team's best player has some responsibility for his/her team's performance whether it's in the regular season or the playoffs.
     
    Sour Shoes and wetcoast like this.
  7. SotasicA

    SotasicA Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    4,851
    Likes Received:
    2,621
    Trophy Points:
    126
    He can never catch Crosby.
     
  8. Anahome

    Anahome Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2019
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gretzky was the best player on the LA Kings team. He's responsible that his team didn't win a Cup? I dont' think so.
     
  9. Anahome

    Anahome Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2019
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    8
    He doesn't need to catch Crosby.
     
    kmart likes this.
  10. Thenameless

    Thenameless Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,020
    Likes Received:
    1,067
    Trophy Points:
    109
    He's partly responsible, as is every other player on that team.
     
  11. JLaw1719

    JLaw1719 Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    380
    Likes Received:
    366
    Trophy Points:
    49
    I think some who are resolutely answering Crosby then, now and forever are really underestimating the power of chasing and passing one of Gretzky’s biggest records has.

    If Crosby is only adding to his resume by putting up 85-90 point seasons while Ovechkin continues to hit 50 goals and chip away at Gretzky, Ovechkin is going to have a tremendous hold on many hockey fans minds by continuing to gun for one of the “unbreakable” records.

    The mystique and allure of chasing down the legendary 894, continuing to be linked daily in the news to every legend ahead of him currently on the all time goal list, having his name reinforced over time day after day by passing Mario, Howe, Gretzky, etc casts a large shadow that I think some are way underestimating.

    Even if Ovechkin doesn’t win another Cup and Conn Smythe, he has both now to protect him from most “yeah but he didn’t win” detractors. Combine that with possibly breaking a huge Gretzky record and he is going to be seen as almost bullet proof.
     
    JasonRoseEh, Anahome and GlitchMarner like this.
  12. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    7,227
    Likes Received:
    3,782
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, ON
    Crosby is a huge deal now (and seems to have somewhat of an untouchable aura compared to his contemporaries) because he has been one of the best players of the last 20 years and has always been hyped up and many younger fans are sold on the idea that the current players are the best athletes to ever have played professional hockey.

    In 2050, no one is going to give a **** whether players from the 2000s and 2010s were better athletes than players from the 1980s and 1990s. You will not have people raising hypothetical questions like, "Would Crosby have broken Gretzky's points in a season record if he had played during his time?" or, "Would Ovechkin have scored 100 goals in 1985?".

    Many of the people of that time will consider their modern players the best athletes in professional hockey history and will rank past greats according to their resumes, accomplishments, records and lore (like we do with past players now). Neither of these players will be considered comparable to players like Howe, Orr, Lemieux or Gretzky. They will be considered to be in that next tier along with players like Bobby Hull and Jean Beliveau. Ovechkin may actually have more historical significance (assuming a better and more accomplished goal scorer doesn't come along) because his goal scoring stands out in NHL history whereas Crosby may be lumped in with great centres like Mikita and Messier and not thought or talked about much more than they are now.

    When Trottier and Bossy were in their primes, I am sure Trottier was generally considered a better all-around player and many fans of the time would have chosen him over Bossy to start a team. Now, all these years later, Bossy is ranked higher on all-time lists by many and his name seems to be brought up on these boards more frequently than Trottier's. He is simply more memorable because of his goal scoring prowess and accolades.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  13. Anahome

    Anahome Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2019
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Did he play bad on Kings team? He did the best what he could do on the weak team. It's not his fault that the Kings didn't win a Cup. Is McDavid responsible that Oilers haven't won the Cup yet?
     
  14. tacogeoff

    tacogeoff Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Messages:
    10,107
    Likes Received:
    877
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Killarney, MB
    That is a very valid point.
     
  15. Thenameless

    Thenameless Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,020
    Likes Received:
    1,067
    Trophy Points:
    109
    Another great player, Patrick Roy, outplayed Gretzky in that Cup. The Kings brought him in to win a Cup, and he didn't. A weak team doesn't make it to the Stanley Cup.
     
  16. Ciccarelli

    Ciccarelli Uncle Gelart

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,387
    Likes Received:
    131
    Trophy Points:
    121
    Passing the puck to another player doesnt win games for you, putting the puck in the net does. If Ovechkin passes Gretzky in the goals scored he is the greates hockey player of all time.
     
  17. wetcoast

    wetcoast Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,602
    Likes Received:
    1,227
    Trophy Points:
    84
    Gender:
    Male

    Well over 20 years have gone by since the NYI dynasty and both Potvin and Trottier are still held in higher regard than Bossy, at least to a quite knowledgeable group in the HOH section around these parts.

    Potvin 18
    Trottier 31
    Bossy 36

    Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time
     
  18. wetcoast

    wetcoast Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,602
    Likes Received:
    1,227
    Trophy Points:
    84
    Gender:
    Male
    With all due respect this analysis of the game of ice hockey completely misses all of the other contributions all players make on the ice, it's not like goals =100% of the contribution.

    This analysis might apply to goal scoring fantasy leagues but that's about it.

    Just watch any game and often scoring the goal is easy as the pass has set up a player with a wide open net.
     
  19. filinski77

    filinski77 Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    822
    Likes Received:
    846
    Trophy Points:
    74
    For what it's worth though:

    Potvin:
    Norris finishes = 1/1/1/2/2/3/4/8/9/10
    AS finishes = 1/1/1/1/1/2/2
    Hart finishes = 2/4/7/7/9/9/9
    Point/gp player playing from 20-34 (as a d-man)
    Point finishes = 5/7

    Bossy:
    AS finishes = 1/1/1/1/1/2/2/2/3/7
    Hart finishes = 3/4/4/6/7/10
    Rocket finishes = 1/1/2/2/2/3/3/5/7
    1.5 points/gp playing from ages 21-30

    Potvin was a better D than Bossy was a forward, so I don't think its a stretch at all to say Potvin is better all time, and he certainly can't be compared to Ovi in the sense that, yes they are both goalscorers, but Ovi has the resume of Harts, Pearsons, way more goal leads, a ross, and 3 point/gp leads.

    As far as Trottier goes, I feel Bossy should be ahead of him (but they are close), I'd assume a lot of it has to do with Trottier having a Hart/Ross to his name, and finishing with 300 more points than Bossy did. Either way it's fairly close 31 vs 36 in that ranking.
     
  20. wetcoast

    wetcoast Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,602
    Likes Received:
    1,227
    Trophy Points:
    84
    Gender:
    Male

    I don't think that many people look at the extra 300 points, Trottier during his peak and prime was an elite scoring center who also had a very strong 200 foot game.

    If anything Trottier hanging around past his best before date might hurt him.

    Bossy has the benefit like Orr of never aging and people seeing them past their prime, although to be fair I don't think it would make a huge difference for Bossy, although if Orr didn't have injuries and had another 3 or 4 healthy seasons it would be very hard to pick Gretzky over him for me..
     
  21. atomic

    atomic Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    64
    Crosby only scored 36 goals in that season. A goal should count twice the amount as an assist as they give out two assists per goal. Maybe you should only count primary assist and then reevaluate them on scoring.
     
  22. atomic

    atomic Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    64
    If Ovechkin passes Gretzky's goal record it will be bigger than the game of hockey.

    The one thing we don't have to worry about is Gretzky bringing up his 46 WHA goals.
     
  23. moropanov

    moropanov Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2015
    Messages:
    274
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    26
    Ovechin isnt even better in hockey than Sean Bergenheim let alone Leo Komarov so whatever
     
  24. bigbabybuda

    bigbabybuda Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2014
    Messages:
    776
    Likes Received:
    225
    Trophy Points:
    61
    Location:
    Canada
    Ovechkin has allready surpassed Crosby. If he was Canadian this wouldnt even been a real debate. If he finishes 1st in goals alltime it will move into the ainec department.
     
  25. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Crawlin W/Dahlin

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    8,411
    Likes Received:
    2,243
    Trophy Points:
    211
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ALT, CAN
    I was going to say no crosby will still be better but hold on....

    Everyone who thinks that is seemingly making it sound like Ovechkin catching Gretzky isn’t that big of a deal anymore because he just may.

    Remember people this was said to be impossible, not even two years ago people laughed at this nick kypreos ripped David amber for suggesting it could happen.

    In today’s age, yes beating gretzkys goal record and that cup and smythe now to me are enough as well as winning the Hart , Trillion rockets and Calder over Sid.

    To me if it happens they’d be equal if not ovi slightly ahead.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"