Is catching Gretzky in goals enough for Ovechkin to surpass Crosby?

If Ovechkin passes Gretzky, is he greater than Crosby?


  • Total voters
    393

HockeySniper

Registered User
May 13, 2018
223
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Crosby has more points per game in the playoffs and Ovechkin's role is to score as much as he can.
Don’t put scoring and assists together and points as “scoring.” Pretty sure Ovi is only a few goals behind Crosby with 40 less games. And we all know Ovi gets shadowed all game long.
 

Plural

Registered User
Mar 10, 2011
33,703
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Crosby had 15 goals and 31 points and played defense.
Ovechkin had 15 goals and 27 points and didn't play defense.

How is Ovechkin's Smythe Run (which should have gone to Evgeny Kuznetsov) better? That is ridiculous.

Those playoffs OV actually did play rather good all-around hockey. He wasn't some Lehtinen out there, but he certainly played well all over the ice.
 

Midnight Judges

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Feb 10, 2010
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The other difference is Crosby's 3 Cups to Ovechkin's 1, while Ovechkin's been on 3 Presidents' Trophy winning teams while Crosby has been on none.

The implication here seems to be that Crosby is responsible for the cups but not the lack of President's trophies, and Ovechkin is not responsible for the President's trophies but is responsible for the lack of cups.

That's audacious.

Are the Pens so bad without Crosby? They had no problem making the playoffs without him. In fact they posted their best goal differential of the past 20 years in 2012 when Crosby played only 22 games. They also had no problem winning a cup in 2016 despite Crosby being a complete passenger against the Capitals and scoring at a 65 point 21 goal pace as a minus player in 24 games.

Of course, the truth is hockey is a team sport and no one player has ever controlled the destiny of an entire team. To say otherwise is to acknowledge that you don't comprehend the game.
 

Thenameless

Registered User
Apr 29, 2014
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The implication here seems to be that Crosby is responsible for the cups but not the lack of President's trophies, and Ovechkin is not responsible for the President's trophies but is responsible for the lack of cups.

A team's best player has some responsibility for his/her team's performance whether it's in the regular season or the playoffs.
 

Anahome

Registered User
Oct 5, 2019
218
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A team's best player has some responsibility for his/her team's performance whether it's in the regular season or the playoffs.
Gretzky was the best player on the LA Kings team. He's responsible that his team didn't win a Cup? I dont' think so.
 

Video Nasty

Registered User
Mar 12, 2017
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I think some who are resolutely answering Crosby then, now and forever are really underestimating the power of chasing and passing one of Gretzky’s biggest records has.

If Crosby is only adding to his resume by putting up 85-90 point seasons while Ovechkin continues to hit 50 goals and chip away at Gretzky, Ovechkin is going to have a tremendous hold on many hockey fans minds by continuing to gun for one of the “unbreakable” records.

The mystique and allure of chasing down the legendary 894, continuing to be linked daily in the news to every legend ahead of him currently on the all time goal list, having his name reinforced over time day after day by passing Mario, Howe, Gretzky, etc casts a large shadow that I think some are way underestimating.

Even if Ovechkin doesn’t win another Cup and Conn Smythe, he has both now to protect him from most “yeah but he didn’t win” detractors. Combine that with possibly breaking a huge Gretzky record and he is going to be seen as almost bullet proof.
 

GlitchMarner

Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Jul 21, 2017
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I think some who are resolutely answering Crosby then, now and forever are really underestimating the power of chasing and passing one of Gretzky’s biggest records has.

If Crosby is only adding to his resume by putting up 85-90 point seasons while Ovechkin continues to hit 50 goals and chip away at Gretzky, Ovechkin is going to have a tremendous hold on many hockey fans minds by continuing to gun for one of the “unbreakable” records.

The mystique and allure of chasing down the legendary 894, continuing to be linked daily in the news to every legend ahead of him currently on the all time goal list, having his name reinforced over time day after day by passing Mario, Howe, Gretzky, etc casts a large shadow that I think some are way underestimating.

Even if Ovechkin doesn’t win another Cup and Conn Smythe, he has both now to protect him from most “yeah but he didn’t win” detractors. Combine that with possibly breaking a huge Gretzky record and he is going to be seen as almost bullet proof.

Crosby is a huge deal now (and seems to have somewhat of an untouchable aura compared to his contemporaries) because he has been one of the best players of the last 20 years and has always been hyped up and many younger fans are sold on the idea that the current players are the best athletes to ever have played professional hockey.

In 2050, no one is going to give a shit whether players from the 2000s and 2010s were better athletes than players from the 1980s and 1990s. You will not have people raising hypothetical questions like, "Would Crosby have broken Gretzky's points in a season record if he had played during his time?" or, "Would Ovechkin have scored 100 goals in 1985?".

Many of the people of that time will consider their modern players the best athletes in professional hockey history and will rank past greats according to their resumes, accomplishments, records and lore (like we do with past players now). Neither of these players will be considered comparable to players like Howe, Orr, Lemieux or Gretzky. They will be considered to be in that next tier along with players like Bobby Hull and Jean Beliveau. Ovechkin may actually have more historical significance (assuming a better and more accomplished goal scorer doesn't come along) because his goal scoring stands out in NHL history whereas Crosby may be lumped in with great centres like Mikita and Messier and not thought or talked about much more than they are now.

When Trottier and Bossy were in their primes, I am sure Trottier was generally considered a better all-around player and many fans of the time would have chosen him over Bossy to start a team. Now, all these years later, Bossy is ranked higher on all-time lists by many and his name seems to be brought up on these boards more frequently than Trottier's. He is simply more memorable because of his goal scoring prowess and accolades.
 
Last edited:

Anahome

Registered User
Oct 5, 2019
218
110
He's partly responsible, as is every other player on that team.
Did he play bad on Kings team? He did the best what he could do on the weak team. It's not his fault that the Kings didn't win a Cup. Is McDavid responsible that Oilers haven't won the Cup yet?
 

tacogeoff

Registered User
Jul 18, 2011
11,590
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In 2050, no one is going to give a **** whether players from the 2000s and 2010s were better athletes than players from the 1980s and 1990s. You will not have people raising hypothetical questions like, "Would Crosby have broken Gretzky's points in a season record if he had played during his time?" or, "Would Ovechkin have scored 100 goals in 1985?".

Many of the people of that time will consider their modern players the best athletes in professional hockey history and will rank past greats according to their resumes, accomplishments, records and lore (like we do with past players now). Neither of these players will be considered comparable to players like Howe, Orr, Lemieux or Gretzky. They will be considered to be in that next tier along with players like Bobby Hull and Jean Beliveau. Ovechkin may actually have more historical significance (assuming a better and more accomplished goal scorer doesn't come along) because his goal scoring stands out in NHL history whereas Crosby may be lumped in with great centres like Mikita and Messier and not thought or talked about much more than they are now.

When Trottier and Bossy were in their primes, I am sure Trottier was generally considered a better all-around player and many fans of the time would have chosen him over Bossy to start a team. Now, all these years later, Bossy is ranked higher on all-time lists by many and his name seems to be brought up on these boards more frequently than Trottier's. He is simply more memorable because of his goal scoring prowess and accolades.

That is a very valid point.
 

Thenameless

Registered User
Apr 29, 2014
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Did he play bad on Kings team? He did the best what he could do on the weak team. It's not his fault that the Kings didn't win a Cup.

Another great player, Patrick Roy, outplayed Gretzky in that Cup. The Kings brought him in to win a Cup, and he didn't. A weak team doesn't make it to the Stanley Cup.
 

Ciccarelli

Uncle Gelart
Dec 17, 2005
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Passing the puck to another player doesnt win games for you, putting the puck in the net does. If Ovechkin passes Gretzky in the goals scored he is the greates hockey player of all time.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,246
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Crosby is a huge deal now (and seems to have somewhat of an untouchable aura compared to his contemporaries) because he has been one of the best players of the last 20 years and has always been hyped up and many younger fans are sold on the idea that the current players are the best athletes to ever have played professional hockey.

In 2050, no one is going to give a **** whether players from the 2000s and 2010s were better athletes than players from the 1980s and 1990s. You will not have people raising hypothetical questions like, "Would Crosby have broken Gretzky's points in a season record if he had played during his time?" or, "Would Ovechkin have scored 100 goals in 1985?".

Many of the people of that time will consider their modern players the best athletes in professional hockey history and will rank past greats according to their resumes, accomplishments, records and lore (like we do with past players now). Neither of these players will be considered comparable to players like Howe, Orr, Lemieux or Gretzky. They will be considered to be in that next tier along with players like Bobby Hull and Jean Beliveau. Ovechkin may actually have more historical significance (assuming a better and more accomplished goal scorer doesn't come along) because his goal scoring stands out in NHL history whereas Crosby may be lumped in with great centres like Mikita and Messier and not thought or talked about much more than they are now.

When Trottier and Bossy were in their primes, I am sure Trottier was generally considered a better all-around player and many fans of the time would have chosen him over Bossy to start a team. Now, all these years later, Bossy is ranked higher on all-time lists by many and his name seems to be brought up on these boards more frequently than Trottier's. He is simply more memorable because of his goal scoring prowess and accolades.


Well over 20 years have gone by since the NYI dynasty and both Potvin and Trottier are still held in higher regard than Bossy, at least to a quite knowledgeable group in the HOH section around these parts.

Potvin 18
Trottier 31
Bossy 36

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,246
10,125
Passing the puck to another player doesnt win games for you, putting the puck in the net does. If Ovechkin passes Gretzky in the goals scored he is the greates hockey player of all time.

With all due respect this analysis of the game of ice hockey completely misses all of the other contributions all players make on the ice, it's not like goals =100% of the contribution.

This analysis might apply to goal scoring fantasy leagues but that's about it.

Just watch any game and often scoring the goal is easy as the pass has set up a player with a wide open net.
 

filinski77

Registered User
Feb 12, 2017
2,576
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Well over 20 years have gone by since the NYI dynasty and both Potvin and Trottier are still held in higher regard than Bossy, at least to a quite knowledgeable group in the HOH section around these parts.

Potvin 18
Trottier 31
Bossy 36

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time
For what it's worth though:

Potvin:
Norris finishes = 1/1/1/2/2/3/4/8/9/10
AS finishes = 1/1/1/1/1/2/2
Hart finishes = 2/4/7/7/9/9/9
Point/gp player playing from 20-34 (as a d-man)
Point finishes = 5/7

Bossy:
AS finishes = 1/1/1/1/1/2/2/2/3/7
Hart finishes = 3/4/4/6/7/10
Rocket finishes = 1/1/2/2/2/3/3/5/7
1.5 points/gp playing from ages 21-30

Potvin was a better D than Bossy was a forward, so I don't think its a stretch at all to say Potvin is better all time, and he certainly can't be compared to Ovi in the sense that, yes they are both goalscorers, but Ovi has the resume of Harts, Pearsons, way more goal leads, a ross, and 3 point/gp leads.

As far as Trottier goes, I feel Bossy should be ahead of him (but they are close), I'd assume a lot of it has to do with Trottier having a Hart/Ross to his name, and finishing with 300 more points than Bossy did. Either way it's fairly close 31 vs 36 in that ranking.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,246
10,125
For what it's worth though:

Potvin:
Norris finishes = 1/1/1/2/2/3/4/8/9/10
AS finishes = 1/1/1/1/1/2/2
Hart finishes = 2/4/7/7/9/9/9
Point/gp player playing from 20-34 (as a d-man)
Point finishes = 5/7

Bossy:
AS finishes = 1/1/1/1/1/2/2/2/3/7
Hart finishes = 3/4/4/6/7/10
Rocket finishes = 1/1/2/2/2/3/3/5/7
1.5 points/gp playing from ages 21-30

Potvin was a better D than Bossy was a forward, so I don't think its a stretch at all to say Potvin is better all time, and he certainly can't be compared to Ovi in the sense that, yes they are both goalscorers, but Ovi has the resume of Harts, Pearsons, way more goal leads, a ross, and 3 point/gp leads.

As far as Trottier goes, I feel Bossy should be ahead of him (but they are close), I'd assume a lot of it has to do with Trottier having a Hart/Ross to his name, and finishing with 300 more points than Bossy did. Either way it's fairly close 31 vs 36 in that ranking.


I don't think that many people look at the extra 300 points, Trottier during his peak and prime was an elite scoring center who also had a very strong 200 foot game.

If anything Trottier hanging around past his best before date might hurt him.

Bossy has the benefit like Orr of never aging and people seeing them past their prime, although to be fair I don't think it would make a huge difference for Bossy, although if Orr didn't have injuries and had another 3 or 4 healthy seasons it would be very hard to pick Gretzky over him for me..
 

atomic

Registered User
Jul 2, 2006
289
0
Well I didn't know that we were using single season to determine peak either. If you want to do that then Crosby had the same amount of in 41 games than Ovechkin did in 79. Not to mention Crosby has the highest scoring season out of the two with 120 points, to Ovechkin's 112. Not enough? How about how Crosby's largest point difference between himself and the 2nd place finisher was 17 points in 2013-14. Ovechkin's? 6 points. But yeah, Ovechkin had a higher peak. Okay then. By what metric?

Crosby only scored 36 goals in that season. A goal should count twice the amount as an assist as they give out two assists per goal. Maybe you should only count primary assist and then reevaluate them on scoring.
 

atomic

Registered User
Jul 2, 2006
289
0
Things like that just need to sink in. It is hard to imagine now how people who will have witnessed Ovechkin beating Gretzky's career goal record will view Ovechkin. It is even harder to imagine how those who become fans with the knowledge that Ovechkin is that star of the old days who surpassed Gretzky in one big thing will view Ovechkin.

Ovechkin's legend is like a huge mountain you have to admire from a distance. I doubt his 8 Rockets have sank in completely with most people including myself. "Who led the NHL in goals most times?" - I lived for too many years with the knowledge it was Bobby Hull. Ovechkin's Cup and Smythe definitely have not sunk in, the talk of Ovechkin not being able to get it done and take the team out of the 2nd round is still fresh in everyone's memory. The new generation of fans that have not heard this talk and became fans with the knowledge that Ovechkin has a Cup and was a playoff MVP has not yet arrived.

Ovechkin's legend will grow with time. As someone who have witnessed the debate about him in his peak years, I can say that his 2007-2010 peak and 07/08 season are now viewed more favorably than they were back then. The talk that Crosby was 1B in this period, or Malkin was 1B, and what about Datsyuk - all that stuff has largely stopped. Ovechkin now owns "best three-year peak since Jagr", and if McDavid has a flatter career arc and does not take it away from Ovechkin, just imagine what people would think 10 years down the road - "Ovechkin? You mean the guy everyone's peak play in the last 30 years is being compared to and fails to measure up?"

So, coming back to career goals - if Ovechkin gets to 895, every decade and every brilliant goal-scorer with multiple goal-scoring titles who will fall short by 200 goals will add to future fans' awe. It is impossible to imagine now the fan of 2050 and the image of the towering Ovechkin figure in his mind. And yes, there will be a difference between 897 and 887, though Gretzky/Ovechkin will be the double peak in career goals anyway.

If Ovechkin passes Gretzky's goal record it will be bigger than the game of hockey.

The one thing we don't have to worry about is Gretzky bringing up his 46 WHA goals.
 

moropanov

Registered User
Mar 7, 2015
628
340
Ovechin isnt even better in hockey than Sean Bergenheim let alone Leo Komarov so whatever
 

bigbabybuda

Registered User
Feb 19, 2014
1,049
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Canada
Ovechkin has allready surpassed Crosby. If he was Canadian this wouldnt even been a real debate. If he finishes 1st in goals alltime it will move into the ainec department.
 

Tage2Tuch

Because TheJackAttack is in Black
May 10, 2004
9,048
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I was going to say no crosby will still be better but hold on....

Everyone who thinks that is seemingly making it sound like Ovechkin catching Gretzky isn’t that big of a deal anymore because he just may.

Remember people this was said to be impossible, not even two years ago people laughed at this nick kypreos ripped David amber for suggesting it could happen.

In today’s age, yes beating gretzkys goal record and that cup and smythe now to me are enough as well as winning the Hart , Trillion rockets and Calder over Sid.

To me if it happens they’d be equal if not ovi slightly ahead.
 

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