Is Buffalo's Roster Better Than Montreal ?

Panthaz89

Buffalo Sabres, Carolina Panthers fan
Dec 24, 2016
13,306
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Buffalo,NY
Montreal finished 20 points higher than Buffalo. It'll take more than wishful thinking to leap over that chasm. Neither team made substantial changes and no players had exceptional or unsustainable seasons. Both teams have very good prospects and young players, but it's unlikely one group of kids will be so much better or worse for Buffalo to overtake Montreal.
Pretty sure my post was only a response to the ridiculous claim that Montreal had the best top line in the league. Sabres had much bigger trouble facing TOR TB, BOS top lines by comparison I got to watch pretty much all division games this year.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
85,209
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Bojangles Parking Lot
Both teams are deeply flawed, but between the two of them I'd rather have Buffalo's roster. Mainly because you have a small cluster of truly elite talent there, which you can see a clear path to supplementing over the next few years and becoming a contender before the core ages out.

Today, the Habs are a better team. But I have a very hard time imagining them taking the next 2-3 steps into being a contender, and a very easy time imagining them going full-trainwreck into a lottery team. It's basically all on a 32-and-not-getting-younger Carey Price to put the team on his back every year.
 
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Spirit of 67

Registered User
Nov 25, 2016
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OK but you can't do that, that's not how it works, this isn't avengers, you can't just make Price dissapear
Well we don't know how Buffalo's goaltending will be. If Carey wildly out plays Buffalo's goalies Montreal will be better. If goaltending is a non factor, then I think Buffalo will be better.
 

LEAFANFORLIFE23

Registered User
Jun 17, 2010
45,601
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Well we don't know how Buffalo's goaltending will be. If Carey wildly out plays Buffalo's goalies Montreal will be better. If goaltending is a non factor, then I think Buffalo will be better.

But we do know how Buffalo's goaltending will be we say it last year, it started hot and then it crashed and burned. Neither Hutton nor Ullmark is the guy.

Hutton would be a fantastic backup though
 

hockeeyyy

Registered User
Sep 29, 2017
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Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Neither are good enough to catch the Leafs, Bruins, or Lightning.
 

threeVo

Registered User
Jan 5, 2010
3,783
1,665
Tampa
Coaching will determine this. Buffalo top to bottom has a better roster overall, but their system was so bad last year. Housley was out of his league. If they can mesh like MTL did, they should be better due to high end 1C and developing high end 1D
 

Rico Suave

Registered User
Jan 30, 2019
453
422
well with tampa,boston,toronto and even florida i would say both MTL and BUF are screwed lol that being said Buffalo has better top end talent with Eichel and Dahlin and Montreal has Carey Price and better depth,personally i think montreal finishes with more points but both teams miss playoffs
 

SlapshotTheMovie

Registered User
Jan 18, 2013
3,101
1,174
Buffalo has one bad long term contract. Habs have 3. Buffalo has better high end talent. Buffalo cap issues will realistically be resolved when this season ends. Its easier to replace depth then high end talent. If i was a gm i would gladly take buffalos roster over the habs.
 

JayfromNB1219

Registered User
Mar 27, 2019
2,087
1,171
New Brunswick
Your opinion. I think this Babcock thing is really going to cause a rift between the media and him, between him and his teammates and the media and team. Thankfully for you guys he will more then likely be fired after this year if they fail to win their first round since the days ray Ferraro was still playing. Lol

I see Barrie, Ceci and kerfoot as recent replacements for Kadri, Gardiner, Brown, Zaitsev, Hainsey, Marleau, Borgman, Rosen, Sparks, Ennis. Oh yeah Spezza too he’s a rich man ennis now likely, version but fourth liner.

Dude...can I just say I appreciate your posts haha!

I think Dubas did an interesting thing with realizing his core (AM, JT, MM, WN, MR, FA) and “building around” those six. The only problem building around is going to be tough when your a good team that makes the playoffs but doesent go anywhere, so they’re not going to get a high first rounder likely any time soon nor have they since Auston.

It also doesent help with that in mind that six players in depth roles have 20-30 or more goals and have been given away in the last year, JVR, Bozak, Komarov, Brown, Marleau, Kadri, that’s six guys who scored at a level of as I said at least twenty a couple of them 30.

I realize they have Kapanen And Jonson It’s just the leafs we’re amazing in depth before but now they’re top heavy. It’s fine though because they got a good core, better then a lot of teams but can they take the next step and can they do it with babcock? Dubas was intelligent to not give Babcock a vote of confidence but retain him another year not just because their paying him but because now he has a “fall guy” this year if things go wrong.

I just don’t know if they’re “a lot better” Gardiner gets blown up in leaf nation but his skating and offense was great, Zaitsev gets blown up in leaf nation after his good rookie year but still brought some things to
The table, it’s like Ben hutton leaving Van? Good first year and then tailed off and leaving but fans just can’t automatically look at that as a win. Because the guy who takes his spot has to not only Be, but play at his level and better and it’s not a guarantee. Sometimes the devi You know Is better then the devi you dont know, the backup will be in the air if it should work we will see, but that’s On Dubas to not keep Curtis M.

The highest two issues though that make me
Feel if Toronto will actually be better outside The obvious Babcock issues is they lost a lot of things that can’t be replaced very easily. People think Marleau (he’s old! Easily replaceable) uh no...there’s more to hockey then points. You don’t realize what a veteran like that isn’t he room, leadership ca being to a table with young kids. Not just him but Hainsey brought the experience and leadership on the back end too. That’s tif is the things we don’t see behind closed doors. It’s important In pro sports especially hockey or it wouldn’t be so universally touted.

Brown was a hometown boy and Kadri was a veteran leaf, one of if not the last of he old and was the only sandpaper they had really, his contract was also amazing and was a perfect two way center. Mention his mistakes sure hit it wouldn’t of happened again in all likelihood and his checking ability is great, also plays the agitator roll well.

I know as in life you have to spend to gain, the leafs did and have I’m just not sure if Barrie, Ceci, Kerfoot and 4th line Spezza can overcome all of the above to make the team better, could it happen? Sure the leafs could even make the finals, but I want to see them win a round before I label them higher. I still think they’re going to finish third out of 8 in the best division in the league so that’s still great.
 

Panthaz89

Buffalo Sabres, Carolina Panthers fan
Dec 24, 2016
13,306
5,805
Buffalo,NY
Took 10 pages for the answer. I'd add the Panthers into that mix as well.
Panthers are meh and aren't really any better than Buffalo or Montreal....people were saying they were supposed to be good last year but nope. They aren't going to buy their way up with some flashy FA signings especially when it comes to goalies.
 

Tuffy gosewich

Registered User
Aug 21, 2019
152
50
Panthers are meh and aren't really any better than Buffalo or Montreal....people were saying they were supposed to be good last year but nope. They aren't going to buy their way up with some flashy FA signings especially when it comes to goalies.
This. Panthers have been overhyped for a few years now and have constanstly disappointed. Nothing will change.
 

Mr Positive

Cap Crunch Incoming
Nov 20, 2013
36,014
16,413
Panthers are meh and aren't really any better than Buffalo or Montreal....people were saying they were supposed to be good last year but nope. They aren't going to buy their way up with some flashy FA signings especially when it comes to goalies.
if there is one way to upgrade your team with absolute certainty, it's the goaltending. Other signings and addtions are subject to chemistry, etc.. The goalie the one part of a team that is basically a stat machine. Florida will definitely take a leap forward this season. The only question is by how much.

With parity, having one grave weakness can be enough to sink you completely. Florida may challenge for a divisional spot.
 

Panthaz89

Buffalo Sabres, Carolina Panthers fan
Dec 24, 2016
13,306
5,805
Buffalo,NY
if there is one way to upgrade your team with absolute certainty, it's the goaltending. Other signings and addtions are subject to chemistry, etc.. The goalie the one part of a team that is basically a stat machine. Florida will definitely take a leap forward this season. The only question is by how much.

With parity, having one grave weakness can be enough to sink you completely. Florida may challenge for a divisional spot.
they aren't challenging anything..Bob's honestly not that great of an upgrade as Columbus was an all around strong team top to bottom(which covered up a lot for the goalies) while the Panthers are strong on on the top while their depth is awfully similar to Buffalo and their defense is worse than Buffalo and Montreal so I wouldn't hold my breath for them. You would hardly notice the Panthers are a team when their top line isn't playing....
 
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Tage2Tuch

Because TheJackAttack is in Black
May 10, 2004
9,048
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Oh please, at least try to be a little objective. Leafs lost a top4 D but even you point out that we replaced our #2C with a #3D. Good grief. Marleau was awful last year, Brown scored 8 goals. I'd have loved if we could keep Brown, but I'm not going to pretend that a 29 point player is irreplaceable. We'll have Muzzin for an entire season. We'll have Nylander for an entire season. Our defense is massively upgraded from one year ago (Muzzin and Barrie). We had to let some guys go, but we upgraded our defense which everyone and their mum loves to say was our Achilles heel. You think that Hainsey and Gardiner were the irreplaceable pieces? Come on.

Muzzin > Gardiner
Barrie >>> Zaitsev
Ceci << Hainsey - Sucks to lose Hainsey
Mikheyev or Moore = Brown
Spezza = Marleau at worst. Seriously, Marleau was cooked.
Kerfoot << Kadri
Random #6 = Ozhiganov


You can put all the arrows In the world but one thing I picked up on from this is that you’re severely underestimating the value of veteran leadership.

You either become one naturally from guiadance and characteristics passed on, (for some it’s natural for some not6) or you don’t...


Saying Marleau and Hainsey were bleh, is a bit ignorant. You don’t know the little things they did inside the room that may of helped the mentality of Matthews of Maner when frustrated. You can count kadri too but he wouldn’t be the best one to give advice in the heat of the moment but was an assset In other spots.

If you think guys like Marleau and hainsey were all about points and plus minus and corsi I don’t know where to go with this.

What goes on from The ice is only Half The story, You can even say the didn’t look good on the ice too. That’s not all that matters. Being mentally strong matters. Why did the blues go from dead last to the cup In a few months. You can say many things but that team every guy believed. Not Just in the cliche we want to win so “we Believe in our group” it’s why guys like Justin Williams is always valuable to a team.
 
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Tage2Tuch

Because TheJackAttack is in Black
May 10, 2004
9,048
2,658
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Like this post if you took the time to read the last 3 jack attack posts. Only 3,124 words and 16,770 characters. Jeebus words per minute typing must be off the charts.

I knew you were making these comments a thousand times over to get likes. And you got one. How amazing. The ironic thing is whole I’m posting proving my points your posting for no reason at all other then to get like guess as you’ve just confessed too. You have literally in the last two Weeks made five if not half a dozen posts about it. GET OVER IT.
 

LeafGrief

Shambles in my brain
Apr 10, 2015
7,616
9,532
Ottawa
You can put all the arrows In the world but one thing I picked up on from this is that you’re severely underestimating the value of veteran leadership.

You either become one naturally from guiadance and characteristics passed on, (for some it’s natural for some not6) or you don’t...


Saying Marleau and Hainsey were bleh, is a bit ignorant. You don’t know the little things they did inside the room that may of helped the mentality of Matthews of Maner when frustrated. You can count kadri too but he wouldn’t be the best one to give advice in the heat of the moment but was an assset In other spots.

If you think guys like Marleau and hainsey were all about points and plus minus and corsi I don’t know where to go with this.

What goes on from The ice is only Half The story, You can even say the didn’t look good on the ice too. That’s not all that matters. Being mentally strong matters. Why did the blues go from dead last to the cup In a few months. You can say many things but that team every guy believed. Not Just in the cliche we want to win so “we Believe in our group” it’s why guys like Justin Williams is always valuable to a team.

That's a real interesting take. I'll be forever grateful for the leadership that Marleau and Martin provided to our young guys while they were developing, but when do the kids start getting credit for not being kids any more? I don't know the little things that Marleau and Hainsey did in the dressing room, but I can bet that Marner and Matthews didn't instantly forget all of them either. You'll never catch me speaking poorly of Marleau as a leader or a person and I think his legacy with the Leafs will ultimately be a happy one, but it's not like he was a one-man pillar of leadership.

The Leafs lean on some extremely young players and a lot of them just wrapped up their second or third seasons. Over the last year many of them increased their total games played in the NHL by 50% or more, including playoff games. Morgan Rielly is entering his 7th season in the NHL. We added a 2x cup champion in Muzzin. We added Spezza as a respected veteran (off-ice leadership is effective from the press box, just ask Matt Martin). You're right that mental toughness is important in hockey and the Leafs are improving primarily just by getting older.

St Louis won a Stanley Cup and not a single member of that team had ever won before, with only David Perron even playing in the finals. They beat Boston, who still had 5 guys from their 2011 cup win. MICHAEL TRAIKOS: Lots of Stanley Cup final 'rookies' on Blues roster | Cape Breton Post

St Louis's oldest three players were Bouwmeester (35), Steen (34) and Bozak (32). Their captain was 29 (Peitrangelo) and their alternates were 34 (Steen) and 27 (Tarasenko). Losing Marleau's leadership is a real bummer for the Leafs, but your own example of the Blues don't really seem to give much of an explanation for what the recipe is. It's great that every guy in that dressing room believed, the article I linked even talks about it, but they were probably helped out by the new coach and elite rookie goalie a little bit too. Even if play on the ice is only half the story, it's still a pretty darn important part of the story and the Leafs are 100% upgrading on ice by moving on from Marleau.

Being completely honest, if you think that the Leafs are going to suffer greatly by downgrading from Hainsey and Marleau to Muzzin and Spezza that just sounds like you're searching for an excuse to doubt the Leafs.
 

Tage2Tuch

Because TheJackAttack is in Black
May 10, 2004
9,048
2,658
CAN
That's a real interesting take. I'll be forever grateful for the leadership that Marleau and Martin provided to our young guys while they were developing, but when do the kids start getting credit for not being kids any more? I don't know the little things that Marleau and Hainsey did in the dressing room, but I can bet that Marner and Matthews didn't instantly forget all of them either. You'll never catch me speaking poorly of Marleau as a leader or a person and I think his legacy with the Leafs will ultimately be a happy one, but it's not like he was a one-man pillar of leadership.

The Leafs lean on some extremely young players and a lot of them just wrapped up their second or third seasons. Over the last year many of them increased their total games played in the NHL by 50% or more, including playoff games. Morgan Rielly is entering his 7th season in the NHL. We added a 2x cup champion in Muzzin. We added Spezza as a respected veteran (off-ice leadership is effective from the press box, just ask Matt Martin). You're right that mental toughness is important in hockey and the Leafs are improving primarily just by getting older.

St Louis won a Stanley Cup and not a single member of that team had ever won before, with only David Perron even playing in the finals. They beat Boston, who still had 5 guys from their 2011 cup win. MICHAEL TRAIKOS: Lots of Stanley Cup final 'rookies' on Blues roster | Cape Breton Post

St Louis's oldest three players were Bouwmeester (35), Steen (34) and Bozak (32). Their captain was 29 (Peitrangelo) and their alternates were 34 (Steen) and 27 (Tarasenko). Losing Marleau's leadership is a real bummer for the Leafs, but your own example of the Blues don't really seem to give much of an explanation for what the recipe is. It's great that every guy in that dressing room believed, the article I linked even talks about it, but they were probably helped out by the new coach and elite rookie goalie a little bit too. Even if play on the ice is only half the story, it's still a pretty darn important part of the story and the Leafs are 100% upgrading on ice by moving on from Marleau.

Being completely honest, if you think that the Leafs are going to suffer greatly by downgrading from Hainsey and Marleau to Muzzin and Spezza that just sounds like you're searching for an excuse to doubt the Leafs.

I didn’t say the leafs are going to
Suffer greatly, I just was saying that you might be underestimating the value of what goes I’m behind closed doors. Being a buffalo fan I know a lot about about how important that stuff can be especially when it’s not there.

When I spoke of the blues I wasn’t talking about Marleau like guys I was talking about Craig berube. What that guy did in that dressing room (breaking two walls in the first month with his fist) was the stuff of legend. He was getting praise on hockey central already by late February from
The stories that were coming out, also not just saying this because he’s a friend of my father and met him when I was 8 (well maybe a bit biased) but it shows the value of the mental strength. Remember teams don’t just go into the room at intermissions drink some water and talk about what they’re going to do in cancun this August. Players get rattled. Sticks break, your kids lose their cool, there needs to be a voice in the room. I know Babcock has winning history but what happens when the players lose faith in him, maybe they already have. That’s why having Shanahan there is important he can go and talk to them too.

Yes Matthews and Marner aren’t babies but my god they just turned legal drinking age, or Matthews did in USA going into their non entry level years.

My fault for not being more
Clear on the blues part but that was an environment that believed, same with Vegas with gallant, same with the trotz effect in the island so I’m not just saying it’s a coach thing either even though I listed that here but that was just go further a point I already made on berube. I’m jumping back and forth so I hope you don’t get confused I’m just saying it can come from anyone, whether it’s a coach or a Marleau.

I’ve travelled with many teams in junior a hockey and I’ve been involved with many teams that had toxic staff and it usually lead to bad teams. These were teams with star players but no guidance, I’ve also travelled with teams that didn’t have many stArs but good veterans and a great staff and they were competitive because of work ethic.

So the personal thing I guess hits home with me for Craig as it does junior hockey, it’s just a lot of fans only see what’s on the ice and sometimes get too caught up in stats as That’s all that matters. I get that it’s all we really have to go by or can see so when debating players its only natural to bring that up, (just think players spend way more
Time on the ice at practice and travelling with the team and dressing rooms then they do playing the game on the ice)...m

I’m also not suggesting we all call in to question every teams morale or certainly every players morale ;Eichel had a sour attitude his foes two years but can’t blame him from being successful to not would be a hard transition) but all I’m saying is it’s severely underestimated how much leadership Matters. Not saying you don’t know this yourself either I’m saying this about everyone, It’s not just something analysts talk about because it sounds nice and they want to be respectful to the older player, they say it because they usually have been there in those environments and they know how important it is first hand. It’s not everything and sometimes it can perhaps even be overhyped but it’s definitely Important. So all I’m saying is when judging someone with the reputation as good of a Marleau we can’t just say oh he was awful last year. I don’t even remember if you said that but some did.
 
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LeafGrief

Shambles in my brain
Apr 10, 2015
7,616
9,532
Ottawa
I didn’t say the leafs are going to
Suffer greatly, I just was saying that you might be underestimating the value of what goes I’m behind closed doors. Being a buffalo fan I know a lot about about how important that stuff can be especially when it’s not there.

When I spoke of the blues I wasn’t talking about Marleau like guys I was talking about Craig berube. What that guy did in that dressing room (breaking two walls in the first month with his fist) was the stuff of legend. He was getting praise on hockey central already by late February from
The stories that were coming out, also not just saying this because he’s a friend of my father and met him when I was 8 (well maybe a bit biased) but it shows the value of the mental strength. Remember teams don’t just go into the room at intermissions drink some water and talk about what they’re going to do in cancun this August. Players get rattled. Sticks break, your kids lose their cool, there needs to be a voice in the room. I know Babcock has winning history but what happens when the players lose faith in him, maybe they already have. That’s why having Shanahan there is important he can go and talk to them too.

Yes Matthews and Marner aren’t babies but my god they just turned legal drinking age, or Matthews did in USA going into their non entry level years.

My fault for not being more
Clear on the blues part but that was an environment that believed, same with Vegas with gallant, same with the trotz effect in the island so I’m not just saying it’s a coach thing either even though I listed that here but that was just go further a point I already made on berube. I’m jumping back and forth so I hope you don’t get confused I’m just saying it can come from anyone, whether it’s a coach or a Marleau.

I’ve travelled with many teams in junior a hockey and I’ve been involved with many teams that had toxic staff and it usually lead to bad teams. These were teams with star players but no guidance, I’ve also travelled with teams that didn’t have many stArs but good veterans and a great staff and they were competitive because of work ethic.

So the personal thing I guess hits home with me for Craig as it does junior hockey, it’s just a lot of fans only see what’s on the ice and sometimes get too caught up in stats as That’s all that matters. I get that it’s all we really have to go by or can see so when debating players its only natural to bring that up, (just think players spend way more
Time on the ice at practice and travelling with the team and dressing rooms then they do playing the game on the ice)...m

I’m also not suggesting we all call in to question every teams morale or certainly every players morale ;Eichel had a sour attitude his foes two years but can’t blame him from being successful to not would be a hard transition) but all I’m saying is it’s severely underestimated how much leadership Matters. Not saying you don’t know this yourself either I’m saying this about everyone, It’s not just something analysts talk about because it sounds nice and they want to be respectful to the older player, they say it because they usually have been there in those environments and they know how important it is first hand. It’s not everything and sometimes it can perhaps even be overhyped but it’s definitely Important. So all I’m saying is when judging someone with the reputation as good of a Marleau we can’t just say oh he was awful last year. I don’t even remember if you said that but some did.

You're not really coming up with a consistent argument here. I understand that leadership is important in hockey and Patrick Marleau has a reputation as a leader, and there is more than enough evidence that he was a huge positive influence in Marner and Matthews' lives. But I work in an environment where young men and women are thrust into leadership roles at extremely young ages with relatively little experience. Some of them sink while others take to it like naturals. It is a bummer to lose Marleau's experience and leadership but it gives room for someone else to step forward. I will confidently tell you that Marleau was awful on the ice and that the Leafs are better off with another player taking his minutes. Intangibles like leadership are hard to quantify and losing Marleau might hurt the Leafs a little, but I think the kids deserve some credit for not needing a team dad anymore and I think other Maple Leafs like Tavares and Rielly deserve credit for their own leadership abilities.
 

Beezeral

Registered User
Mar 1, 2010
9,863
4,612
they aren't challenging anything..Bob's honestly not that great of an upgrade as Columbus was an all around strong team top to bottom(which covered up a lot for the goalies) while the Panthers are strong on on the top while their depth is awfully similar to Buffalo and their defense is worse than Buffalo and Montreal so I wouldn't hold my breath for them. You would hardly notice the Panthers are a team when their top line isn't playing....
The Panthers finished 10 points above the Sabres last year and substantially improved by adding Bobrovsky. Their forward group is much better than the Sabres and I don’t know many people who would prefer the Sabres defenseman over what the Panthers have.
 

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