Is Bernier an elite goaltender?

X66

114-110
Aug 18, 2008
13,549
7,413
Price has been an inconsistent starter in his career stats wise, and yet he has a huge love affair on these boards.

Bernier so far has shown more consistency in his starting Career than Price, but in Price's defence Bernier has started later.
 

Frolov 6'3

Unregistered User
Jun 7, 2003
13,159
3,552
The Netherlands
The short answer to Ben Scrivens is that any goaltender can put up an elite or an awful save percentage in a small sample size. For every goaltender you can name who saw an increase in sv% going to a stronger team, I can probably name a goalie whose sv% dropped after going to a better team.

Luongo played for Florida for 5 full seasons, while Florida finished 27th, 28th, 28th, 24th, and 21st. 5v5 sv%: 0.9295.

He then played for Vancouver for 7.5 seasons, while the Canucks finished 8th, 21st, 7th, 5th, 1st, 1st, and 8th. 5v5 sv%: 0.9284.

If you apply the save percentage he achieved in Florida and apply it to the quantity of shots he faced in Vancouver, the difference is ~11 goals over 448 games, or roughly 1-2 goals per year.

The difference in sv% from Luongo of Tire Fire Florida and Luongo of back to back Pres trophy Vancouver is worth 1-2 goals per year.

Over the long run (3000+ shots faced), there is no real difference to shot quality between teams. Yes, in Edmonton or Buffalo, there are probably going to be more 5 alarm scoring chances against, but there's also going to be proportionately more 'easy' saves too. There's been a lot of research on this.
Good post.

People should take notice.
 

Frolov 6'3

Unregistered User
Jun 7, 2003
13,159
3,552
The Netherlands
Definitely. Lundqvist, Rask, and Rinne are the only elite goaltenders in the league.

Price is probably 4th but I don't know if Quick is even in the top 10. He had a huge playoff run in 2012 followed by two good ones the next two years but has been below average his entire career in the regular season.
Bad post.

You might think Quick is above average in the regular season but below average ? Yeah sure.

One huge playoff run followed by two good ones ? I also think you missed the boat there. You check it yourself (hint: 2012/2013).

Poor post.
 

GoJetsGo55

Registered User
Apr 14, 2009
11,255
8,632
Winnipeg, MB
The only reason this thread exists is because he plays on Toronto. If Bernier was on the Islanders, we wouldn't see this.

All of this "well if you take this sample size or this sample size".....ridiculous.
 

GoJetsGo55

Registered User
Apr 14, 2009
11,255
8,632
Winnipeg, MB
I think we can all agree Bernier had an elite season last year. He faced the most shots in franchise history, stood on his head all season with great stats before his injury in the last two weeks.

The discussion was then "Can he do it again, if yes, then I will call him elite, if no, then he was a one trick pony". This was the consensus on HF. Now, people are saying to wait and see again? We have enough data to look at by now.

The question is, how is he doing this year?

16th in wins (considering he has split games with Reimer, pretty good, however can also be a knock at him. I think he gets 50+ games this year, which will go a long way to prove he can be an elite starter for the leafs)

Top 10 in Sv% of goalies who played over 20 games

in 16th place for best GAA (considering the shots he gets, pretty good)

He is in 12th for shots against

So right now he is playing in the range of 5-15 of goalies in the NHL right now.

Clearly a starter, but he is not top 5, and therefore not elite. However, he clearly has the potential, and I would argue on a sound defensive team he would be elite as his stats would increase. Let's not pretend other goalies don't get that benefit, some win the Vezina for it..

So he's ranked 10 - 16th in a bunch of stats that that puts him potentially up to the top 5?
 

WeThreeKings

Habs cup - its in the BAG
Sep 19, 2006
91,111
91,525
Halifax
Bernier is not an elite goaltender. He never was. He never will be. He's a solid #1 goalie who plays above his level when he sees more shots.

I always find it completely ridiculous, as a goaltender myself, how many hockey fans, who don't play the position, know so little about the position. You see it constantly with people blaming goalies for pretty much every goal.

The top 5 goalies in the league are Quick, Lundqvist, Rinne, Rask and Price.
After that you have a grouping of goalies who can play at top 5 level and enter the conversation: Varlarmov, Bishop and Bobrovsky.

Then you have a group of goalies who have great resumes: Ryan Miller, Lehtonen, Hillier and Crawford.

Bernier belongs in the tier below that with: Fleury, Smith, Halak, Schneider, Niemi, Howard, Andersen, Anderson, Holtby, and Luongo.

These goalies are all solid goalies who are capable of play above that tier but also show games where they are below that tier.

All that being said.. anyone coming in here trying to say Jonathan Quick isn't the top goalie or one of the top 5 goalies in the league should be banned from the discussion. Completely ridiculous.
 

teddy83

Registered User
Nov 2, 2013
681
1
First Bernier needs to read about Nelson Mandela, then worry about being a elite goaltender.....:shakehead
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
95,340
59,233
Ottawa, ON
Elite for me is something that has to be demonstrated with consistency across a number of seasons.

It may be harsh, but I've seen too many flash-in-the-pan performances (Raycroft, Carey, Mason, etc.) to apply the moniker to anyone who has put up a decent season and a half.

Corporal Komarov said:
I think we can all agree Bernier had an elite season last year. He faced the most shots in franchise history, stood on his head all season with great stats before his injury in the last two weeks.

Sounds like Anderson two years ago.
 

torlev*

Guest
All that being said.. anyone coming in here trying to say Jonathan Quick isn't the top goalie or one of the top 5 goalies in the league should be banned from the discussion. Completely ridiculous.

Meh. It's very debateable whether he's top 5 or not.
 

Face Of Bear

Registered User
Jul 30, 2012
2,029
1,161
Bernier is still too inconsistent and lets in too many softies. Every time he gets a chance to take the ball and run with it... he doesnt
 

Rodgerwilco

Entertainment boards w/ some Hockey mixed in.
Feb 6, 2014
7,231
6,503
I've never seen anyone say that the leafs rely on elite goaltending. Lol
 

Rodgerwilco

Entertainment boards w/ some Hockey mixed in.
Feb 6, 2014
7,231
6,503
Bernier is not an elite goaltender. He never was. He never will be. He's a solid #1 goalie who plays above his level when he sees more shots.

I always find it completely ridiculous, as a goaltender myself, how many hockey fans, who don't play the position, know so little about the position. You see it constantly with people blaming goalies for pretty much every goal.

The top 5 goalies in the league are Quick, Lundqvist, Rinne, Rask and Price.
After that you have a grouping of goalies who can play at top 5 level and enter the conversation: Varlarmov, Bishop and Bobrovsky.

Then you have a group of goalies who have great resumes: Ryan Miller, Lehtonen, Hillier and Crawford.

Bernier belongs in the tier below that with: Fleury, Smith, Halak, Schneider, Niemi, Howard, Andersen, Anderson, Holtby, and Luongo.

jist wondering, what's your rationale for putting Fleury in the tier with Schneider, Andersen, Holtby, and Smith, yet putting Lehtonen and Hiller in the tier above, and furthermore Varly and Bishop in one higher tier?
 

TheCLAM

Registered User
Oct 11, 2012
3,945
149
Niagara Falls
I think Bernier has elite potential. He's quite inconsistent in his starts however, and this is his only drawback.

He has the ability to take over a game when he's seeing shots, and also is prone at times to let in a couple softies. Lately, he's been better at seeing pucks and has been looking like a #1 over a short stint.

The difference between elite and #1's is that elite goalies are consistent enough to play spectacular through most of their games.
 

613Leafer

Registered User
May 26, 2008
12,818
3,641
His career save % of .918 puts him pretty high on this list (link below). The only current NHL goalies ahead of him are Luongo, Lundqvist, Rinne, and Rask, who are widely considered to be four of the top top goaltenders from the past 5 or so years.

The only knock against him is sample size. He's yet to play 60+ games in a season (though he did play 55 last season), and he's yet to play multiple years as a starter. But if he keeps up his current pace and finishes the year with 55-60+ games again, then his reputation should continue to grow.

After going through 7-8 years of terrible goaltending, I'm very very happy as a Leafs fan to have this guy. Loved having Cujo in the playoffs, and Bernier has the potential to steal playoff series as well.

http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/nhl-goalies-all-time-save-percentage-leaders.html

*The list only has goalies who have played 200+ NHL games, Bernier is at 139 which is why he's not on the list.
 

Paradoc

John Tavares is a Leaf!
Mar 13, 2013
15,373
2,532
Toronto
Bernier is not an elite goaltender. He never was. He never will be. He's a solid #1 goalie who plays above his level when he sees more shots.

I always find it completely ridiculous, as a goaltender myself, how many hockey fans, who don't play the position, know so little about the position. You see it constantly with people blaming goalies for pretty much every goal.

The top 5 goalies in the league are Quick, Lundqvist, Rinne, Rask and Price.
After that you have a grouping of goalies who can play at top 5 level and enter the conversation: Varlarmov, Bishop and Bobrovsky.

Then you have a group of goalies who have great resumes: Ryan Miller, Lehtonen, Hillier and Crawford.

Bernier belongs in the tier below that with: Fleury, Smith, Halak, Schneider, Niemi, Howard, Andersen, Anderson, Holtby, and Luongo.

These goalies are all solid goalies who are capable of play above that tier but also show games where they are below that tier.

All that being said.. anyone coming in here trying to say Jonathan Quick isn't the top goalie or one of the top 5 goalies in the league should be banned from the discussion. Completely ridiculous.

Funny thing is, Bernier's number is comparable to Bishop, Varlamov and Bobrovsky..
 

jasonleaffan

Registered User
Dec 7, 2008
5,124
716
Toronto
The only reason this thread exists is because he plays on Toronto. If Bernier was on the Islanders, we wouldn't see this.

All of this "well if you take this sample size or this sample size".....ridiculous.

And I bet you would take him on the Jets in a heartbeat.
 

93LEAFS

Registered User
Nov 7, 2009
33,841
20,898
Toronto
I hope he turns into one, but the only guys who are clearly elite are Quick, Rask, Lundqvist and Rinne. Anything after that is up for debate.
 

torlev*

Guest
Shhh, he plays goalie. His opinion is 100 % correct.

He's actually the only one in the world, not in the NHL. Therefore his opinion is obviously more important than anyone else's.

The crappy part of that is, since he's a goalie, he knows nothing about the rest of the game. Nothing about defense, offense, or anything else. I'm sure if you go through the rest of his posts, he never comments on anything but goaltending.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->