Is Belgium “golden generation” coming to its end ?

[Corto]

It's over for the Golden Generation.

But similar to Croatia, it doesn't matter - what matters is the legacy they built, #1 in FIFA ranking for 5 years sounds like a meme, but it's not. They are now a legit threat every big tournament, a perennial contender - or at worst, a very good dark horse.

Hazard, Alderweireld, Vertonghen, etc... Should've all probably been replaced by now, but they chose to ride or die with their veterans.

But again, the LEGACY is huge. Belgium is now a force to be reckoned with, they have a number of talent players lined up and they approach games like a big team, believing they're on par with everyone, believing they can win - that is the final obstacle to smaller nations becoming perennial contenders.

Like us, they will have stronger generations and weaker ones, but once you set up that culture, you're in it for the long haul.

Their Golden Generation is dead - but what they've done for Belgium football is amazing and will pay off long-term.

 

[les Habs]

It’s been done for a few years now, but what I really understand is the idea they were ever going to win something. They just weren’t that good such that anyone should have expected them to win a Euro much less a World Cup.

On another note, Croatia should really get the attention Belgium does. They don’t seem to in my experience and yet look at what this generation accomplished. And Croatia is quite a small country.

 

[Savi]

This is what I wrote after the group stage disaster

Obviously the thread title is pretty much a rhetorical question, that's clear to everyone. And as many have explained before me, this question is only being asked because we have failed to integrate our youngsters and keep playing the old guys who should have been out of the team by now.

The mistake we made is we've let our 'golden generation' being run by two people managers who were on good terms with every player and the general public but who never made tough decisions or showed any world class tactical knowledge.

I do have to say we've been a bit unlucky in the early years of this generation. We were on the right track, appointing Dick Advocaat in 2009 and as expected there was immediate progress under his leadership both on and off the pitch. Hopes were high but then barely a year later the Russian FA parked a truck full of cash on his driveway and he couldn't resist. We did however play a pretty good qualification round for the 2012 EURO, we were on our way to at least making the playoffs but due to a loss on the final matchday against Germany, Turkey ultimately snatched it away from us.

2014 was a good WC for us, even though people say we did 'nothing' I think that's bullshit. This was our golden generation first tournament and many players weren't at their peak yet. Still we won 4 in a row (the US game going to extra time was a miracle with Howard playing the game of his life) and lost narrowly to Argentina.

2016/2018 was our peak moment. Of course Wilmots completely botched it in 2016, leading to T.Courtois legendary interview after the Wales game where he completely destroyed Wilmots lol. Again though, even in this game there was some bad luck involved with our defence decimated. Kompany out injured, Vertonghen as well in the final training session before the game, Vermaelen suspended. That was a makeshift defense and it cost us.
2018 was a fantastic tourney and nobody blames them for not having won. Just wasn't our day against a brilliant France team and I think many players were still on a high from that Brazil game.

2021 Euro's you could see the decline had started and at that point there was already plenty of unhappiness with Martinez and the choices he made. Still I find it hard to blame the team for losing in the QF against an Italy team of which basically everyone said they were clearly the best team in the tournament. Just like they did with France in '18. And still we made it a close game, We also had KdB playing that game basically on one leg after a ridiculous tackle from Palhinha in the Portugal game forced him off.

The 2019 and 2021 Nations League, even though not on the same level as a WC or EURO, have been some of the best examples of Martinez' poor handling of the team. In 2019 all we had to do to reach the final four was to make sure we didn't lose by 3 goals to Switzerland. In that game we were up 2-0 and ultimately lost 5-2. And in 2021 when we actually made the final four we were up 2-0 again, against France in the semi final and ended up losing 2-3. Both times Martinez received a lot of criticism.

For me it's never really been about absolutely having to win anything, just because I know how hard it is to do and how rare it is a smaller country wins something. Even if they have golden generations, look at Croatia right now. But we should have had a lot more memorable moments to remember these guys by. We should have went closer on a lot of occasions. And that all comes down to our FA being perfectly happy letting average to bad coaches stay in place and, in typical Belgian spirit, just be happy being in the conversation as a contender and not demanding results.

We do have a lot of good young prospects coming up and while we may never see a generation this talented I do think we can build on what these guys have achieved, as @Corto said it's a legacy that you have built and it should pay off long-term. Now just get us a good manager and we might still be outside contenders for the next two tournament while we still have Courtois, De Bruyne and Lukaku.

 

[Corto]

We do have a lot of good young prospects coming up and while we may never see a generation this talented I do think we can build on what these guys have achieved, as @Corto said it's a legacy that you have built and it should pay off long-term.

See I don't think it matters if you have quite the same quality of players as Curtious, Hazard, KDB, Lukaku, etc., peaking at the same time.

The most important thing is that others recognize you as a legit threat, and you play you own football, not backing down from anyone, with no fear and always believing in yourselves.
Once that culture is set, if the player quality is anywhere near enough, you can win any game, and go deep in any tournament.

I know SA qualifiers are physically draining, but there'll never be a WC where Brazil or Argentina don't quality.
In Europe, one bad day and you're done (it's very possible to finish 2nd with 9 wins out of 10, and you run into another strong country in the KO round).
So getting to every tournament, going past the group stage, giving yourself a chance - that part Belgium has done. I'm sure a LOT of kids were drawn into football by KDB, Hazard, etc. - now all they have to do is build on that they've be an international force to be reckoned with for years to come.

Small team mentality is what kills teams in these games. Shake that off and your chances go up significantly.
And Belgium has done that IMO.

Denmark and Belgium had a rough tournament, but those two, Croatia and Switzerland have become fixtures in the latter rounds of big tournaments these days.
Italy failed to quality for 2 straight WC, Germany went out in group stage in 2 straight WCs, Holland didn't make it in 2018, etc.

 

[cgf]

See I don't think it matters if you have quite the same quality of players as Curtious, Hazard, KDB, Lukaku, etc., peaking at the same time.

The most important thing is that others recognize you as a legit threat, and you play you own football, not backing down from anyone, with no fear and always believing in yourselves.
Once that culture is set, if the player quality is anywhere near enough, you can win any game, and go deep in any tournament.

I know SA qualifiers are physically draining, but there'll never be a WC where Brazil or Argentina don't quality.
In Europe, one bad day and you're done (it's very possible to finish 2nd with 9 wins out of 10, and you run into another strong country in the KO round).
So getting to every tournament, going past the group stage, giving yourself a chance - that part Belgium has done. I'm sure a LOT of kids were drawn into football by KDB, Hazard, etc. - now all they have to do is build on that they've be an international force to be reckoned with for years to come.

Small team mentality is what kills teams in these games. Shake that off and your chances go up significantly.
And Belgium has done that IMO.

Denmark and Belgium had a rough tournament, but those two, Croatia and Switzerland have become fixtures in the latter rounds of big tournaments these days.
Italy failed to quality for 2 straight WC, Germany went out in group stage in 2 straight WCs, Holland didn't make it in 2018, etc.

That "big team mentality" can be a double-edged sword *sigh*

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

KDB's prime started in 2014 when he went to Wolfsburg.

I guess it comes down to definition of prime - maybe I should've said peak.

Here's the timeline, as I recall:

2013-2014 at Wolfsburg, he starts to break out in a half season

*2014 WORLD CUP, which I described him as "pre-prime" for*

2014-15 at Wolfsburg, breakout year, best player in Bundesliga

So even based on an expansive definition of prime, I wouldn't say that we fully saw "prime" KdB until the season after that World Cup, even though his year at Bremen and that half year at Wolfsburg saw him develop incredibly.

But what I was trying to get at is that KdB has hit a whole new level since ~2017-18ish in which he's been pretty consistently a top 3 midfielder in the world and at times the best. I was making sure that 2018-present KdB wasn't being read back-in-time into 2014 KdB.

 

[robertmac43]

Id says thats harsh they had great players in many positions. Just held back

Admittedly it is harsh. I've just never liked this Belgian generation and have found them overrated throughout their time as a "world beater".

When ever they needed to a big game, it always felt like they couldn't deliver. The win against Brazil in 2018 feels like their biggest accomplishment and it was just a quarters win.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Admittedly it is harsh. I've just never liked this Belgian generation and have found them overrated throughout their time as a "world beater".

When ever they needed to a big game, it always felt like they couldn't deliver. The win against Brazil in 2018 feels like their biggest accomplishment and it was just a quarters win.

Oh I would agree they underachieved big time and never won the big game or rarely. But they talent was there imo.

 

[Pink Mist]

If anyone wants to live out their Football Manager or FIFA dreams and return Belgium to glory, you can apply for the job of head coach or sporting director on the football federation's website: Royal Belgian FA

Apply within

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

It came to an end after 2018...but they've got a talented new generation coming through, so we'll see how much they drop off.

EDIT:
Attacking talents like Doku, De Ketelaere, Saelemaekers, Bakayoko, etc. Midfielders like Onana, Lavia, Lokonga, Vranck, etc. And the likes of Theate, Bornauw, Debast, Siquet, etc. in defense, is a very promising foundation to the new core.

Plus Vandevoort is a very hyped young keeper.

I was looking at this exact thing because everyone says Belgium is done.

I didn’t think their younger generation was bad. Unlikely to be KDB, Courtois, and Chelsea Hazard, but they should still be a top 10 team in the world.

 

[cgf]

I was looking at this exact thing because everyone says Belgium is done.

I didn’t think their younger generation was bad. Unlikely to be KDB, Courtois, and Chelsea Hazard, but they should still be a top 10 team in the world.

I think you could see 1 or 2 from their kids that I know of reach that Hazard / Kompany level, even if they don't have another City-KdB. Evilo keeps hyping Doku and the kid has impressed most of the times I've seen him, not sure if he gets quite that high but also wouldn't be shocked if he hits his full potential.

De Ketelaeaeaere is a really curious talent who I don't know how I feel about yet...like Hlozek his combo of great size, technical ability, and passing is very interesting but I'm not sure if it'll come together as well as it does in my head.

And I think Lavia could be a big time 6 if he reaches his full potential. Like ABK he still needs plenty more polish, but the talent is there to reach a very high level indeed. I'd rate him higher than any german 6 prospect atm, his ceiling is higher than any of the kids as proven as him and the only kids that may have the talent he does are still at the academy level.

 

[Evilo]

Doku is wonderful but has zero fitness and is always injured.
If he gets his body in order, he can totally be a top 3 winger.
But time is ticking and from what I've heard, he doesn't have the most healthy life. I know he has started to work on this though.

 

[les Habs]

If you look at the numbers De Bruyne put up at Werder Bremen you could see he already had it. He was one of the best players in the league in multiple measures.

 

[cgf]

If you look at the numbers De Bruyne put up at Werder Bremen you could see he already had it. He was one of the best players in the league in multiple measures.

Yeah. He was already world-class by the summer of 2014, at least at the club level. Don't remember his performances for their NT specifically enough.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

If you look at the numbers De Bruyne put up at Werder Bremen you could see he already had it. He was one of the best players in the league in multiple measures.

Yeah. He was already world-class by the summer of 2014, at least at the club level. Don't remember his performances for their NT specifically enough.

Oh no doubt at all, he just hit a whole other gear in ~2017. That’s what I was getting at.

I was so excited in the summer of 2013 about KdB coming back to Chelsea after that year at Bremen

 

[Corto]

That "big team mentality" can be a double-edged sword *sigh*

German "big team mentality" went into complacency and I think they believed they were invulnerable after 2014.
The mentality is suppose to be "give 100%, respect everyone, fear noone, play your own game" - but to me in a lot of the German games (especially in 2018) they just played like the win was gonna happen simply because they were Germany. Even the only win the got, the Sweden game, it took a last gasp Kroos free kick.

 

[cgf]

German "big team mentality" went into complacency and I think they believed they were invulnerable after 2014.
The mentality is suppose to be "give 100%, respect everyone, fear noone, play your own game" - but to me in a lot of the German games (especially in 2018) they just played like the win was gonna happen simply because they were Germany. Even the only win the got, the Sweden game, it took a last gasp Kroos free kick.

Yep. Jogi and his staff had gotten too complacent to even attend major coaching conferences after 2016. And in 2018 he was openly talking about saving players like Reus "for the later stages"; while the team picked their camp based on the location of potential knockout stage matches treating progression to the SFs as a given.

 

[bluesfan94]

Is big team mentality a thing? I mean, for a while, Ivory Coast was the team in Africa. They had the Yaya, Kolo, Drogba, Gevinho, Eboue, Tiote, Kalou.

Now the Elephants are a non-factor. They have some good players (Haller, Pepe, Aurier, Kessie) but they're not a "big team."

 

[S E P H]

one thing I love/envy about Europe, you can travel the whole continent via train

must be cool as a football fan... in SA it's easy to go Brazil > USA than Brazil > Peru, lol

Yeah, so I always wondered about that in Brasil. How do teams travel in the domestic league through that absurd rainforest? Or is it similar to like hockey in Polska or Italy where the majority of the teams play in the mountain regions because that's where snow is? In this case, many if not the majority of the teams in Brasil would be stationed around the coastline, no?

 

[S E P H]

Is big team mentality a thing? I mean, for a while, Ivory Coast was the team in Africa. They had the Yaya, Kolo, Drogba, Gevinho, Eboue, Tiote, Kalou.

Now the Elephants are a non-factor. They have some good players (Haller, Pepe, Aurier, Kessie) but they're not a "big team."

Not sure what the argument is between the brethrens here, but the historically Black African nations have the stereotype of producing numerous bloody good players, but look completely lost on the national spectrum. Nigeria, Ghana, Cote d'Ivoire, and others around the region would win trophies in Africa but lose at the world spectrum in horrible ways even if they had talent that would beat 50-60% of Europe IMHO. Russia is in the same boat, a talented nation that always capitulated in big tourneys.

Cameroon is the one nation that I think went beyond this stereotype and a lot of that had to be because of Eto'o being an amazing magical unicorn.

 

[John Pedro]

Yeah, so I always wondered about that in Brasil. How do teams travel in the domestic league through that absurd rainforest? Or is it similar to like hockey in Polska or Italy where the majority of the teams play in the mountain regions because that's where snow is? In this case, many if not the majority of the teams in Brasil would be stationed around the coastline, no?

teams travel via airplane when they play outside their state, all Brazilian states have airporters, some have direct flights while others you need to intercalate (don't know how to say that in English, basically you land at a different state then continue to your original destination) between some states. Also, there were few clubs outside the biggest states. It's usually a drag when you get a team from Rio Grande do Sul to travel to Rio Grande do Norte, that's a 4 hour flight but it isn't a matchup you get usually as Rio Grande do Norte top team has only played in 15 editions of Serie A.

 

[bluesfan94]

intercalate (don't know how to say that in English, basically you land at a different state then continue to your original destination

Layover. But typically you use it as a noun: I am flying to San Diego and I have a layover in Denver

 

[Evilo]

Is big team mentality a thing? I mean, for a while, Ivory Coast was the team in Africa. They had the Yaya, Kolo, Drogba, Gevinho, Eboue, Tiote, Kalou.

Now the Elephants are a non-factor. They have some good players (Haller, Pepe, Aurier, Kessie) but they're not a "big team."

There's a structural reason for Ivory Coast's decline.
JMG started an academy there and just about all those talents come from there. After that he moved to different countries.

 

[Corto]

Is big team mentality a thing?

Yes. I can only speak from the Croatian perspective, but if you go into games with "we're happy to be there", "adjust to the opponent and hope for miracles" attitude, you're dead.

We wasted half of Modric's prime (and Rakitic, Mandzukic, Perisic, etc.) due to corrupt FA and inept coaches (mainly Cacic, Stimac).
Dalic is a very average tactician (at best), but he's made them believe, and the results finally came.
1 WC final, 1 WC semi, and a Nations League Final Four is an achievement any country would be happy with in a 4 year period.
(except France lol)

Serbia I think is an example of a group that doesn't believe - they have fantastic players, great talent, but they set up so negatively that it's a surprise if they do win big matches instead of the other way around.

Once you get that mantle of a team people want to avoid, you're there - as long as you get any sort of decent talent, you're well set up for the future.
And success breeds interest among kids and even more kids play football, academies get funded etc.
Speaking, again, only for Croatia, even when Modric retires, we got Sucic, Majer, Stanisic, Gvardiol, Sutalo, Erlic, Sosa, possibly Simic, Vidovic, Vuskovic, all lined up, and some others will take the next step in the meantime.

You don't need to win U-21 as a "smaller" country to compete in big tournaments. You can't do that really, England, France, etc.... Just have a much bigger pool of kids to pick from.
But you need a team with a gap for 8-10 years, and that's attainable for most football countries - all you need is to cultivate it and have the top players introduce the kids into a winning culture.
Of course, all NTs have downtimes, but if you're "there", the downtime will last 2-3 years and you surface back to the top level.

I believe Belgium and Croatia are there now, and Denmark and Switzerland are on the way there.
Serbia player-wise too, but they need to change their approach and mentality.

 

[les Habs]

Yes. I can only speak from the Croatian perspective, but if you go into games with "we're happy to be there", "adjust to the opponent and hope for miracles" attitude, you're dead.

We wasted half of Modric's prime (and Rakitic, Mandzukic, Perisic, etc.) due to corrupt FA and inept coaches (mainly Cacic, Stimac).
Dalic is a very average tactician (at best), but he's made them believe, and the results finally came.
1 WC final, 1 WC semi, and a Nations League Final Four is an achievement any country would be happy with in a 4 year period.
(except France lol)

Serbia I think is an example of a group that doesn't believe - they have fantastic players, great talent, but they set up so negatively that it's a surprise if they do win big matches instead of the other way around.

Once you get that mantle of a team people want to avoid, you're there - as long as you get any sort of decent talent, you're well set up for the future.
And success breeds interest among kids and even more kids play football, academies get funded etc.
Speaking, again, only for Croatia, even when Modric retires, we got Sucic, Majer, Stanisic, Gvardiol, Sutalo, Erlic, Sosa, possibly Simic, Vidovic, Vuskovic, all lined up, and some others will take the next step in the meantime.

You don't need to win U-21 as a "smaller" country to compete in big tournaments. You can't do that really, England, France, etc.... Just have a much bigger pool of kids to pick from.
But you need a team with a gap for 8-10 years, and that's attainable for most football countries - all you need is to cultivate it and have the top players introduce the kids into a winning culture.
Of course, all NTs have downtimes, but if you're "there", the downtime will last 2-3 years and you surface back to the top level.

I believe Belgium and Croatia are there now, and Denmark and Switzerland are on the way there.
Serbia player-wise too, but they need to change their approach and mentality.

Mario or Luka?