Is Andersen Elite?

[pheasant]

I've made it clear that I think we need to add a top-four D man. That doesn't absolve Andersen of the soft goals and poor play that seem to plague him at the worst times.

It's not one or the other; it's both. You have to be able to evaluate both the D and the goaltending because one can't function without the other, ultimately.

Soft goals are on the goalie though—period.

We've spent years blaming the defence for our terrible goaltending. Right now, we have a better but still flawed team and defence and yet Andersen's numbers and play are not any better than Bernier's and Reimer's. Granted, he played more games than most goalies, hence he faced the most shots in the league, but as much as people love to keep repeating that, it doesn't tell you much, and it doesn't consider the potentially disproportionate amount of rebounds that Andersen lets out compared to other goalies.

I'm not advocating for getting rid of Andersen without a viable replacement. That said, Talbot is intriguing (buy low), and right now we are burying Sparks and Pickard who are both potentially NHL goalies.

First, yes. Soft goals are on the goalie. Andersen let in too many stinkers in the playoffs, specifically games 1,2, and 7. But the goalie at the other end of the ice was as bad as or worse, and his team won the series. Andersen is good enough to win with, and a change isn't needed.

Second, no. Reimer and Bernier weren't just as good as Andersen. Reimer had 3 seasons in Toronto with a GAA over 3. Freddy has never had a season over 3 in his career. Bernier was wildly inconsistant, and proved multiple times that he couldn't handle a starters workload.

It's not just that Andersen played more games, it's that he was capable of playing more games at a high level of quality.

 

[MikeBabchuk]

First, yes. Soft goals are on the goalie. Andersen let in too many stinkers in the playoffs, specifically games 1,2, and 7. But the goalie at the other end of the ice was as bad as or worse, and his team won the series. Andersen is good enough to win with, and a change isn't needed.

Second, no. Reimer and Bernier weren't just as good as Andersen. Reimer had 3 seasons in Toronto with a GAA over 3. Freddy has never had a season over 3 in his career. Bernier was wildly inconsistant, and proved multiple times that he couldn't handle a starters workload.

It's not just that Andersen played more games, it's that he was capable of playing more games at a high level of quality.

The team was much worse in those years, and much more poorly coached. Ultimately, all I'm saying in that regard is, despite the team being "better" now than it was then, Reimer is still the guy who got the Leafs the furthest in the playoffs since Belfour (game 7 OT), albeit with a major team collapse.

Bernier also had very good, and statistically better, stretches of play in the regular season compared to Andersen. Then again, he faded when the going got tough. My point is, the regular season is not the most important indicator going forward if we are measuring progress. This is a playoff team. Andersen has proven to be at least an above average starter in the regular season. But in the next few years, we need to take steps forward, and that process begins with winning a playoff round.

People are defending Andersen with this better team after losing twice in the first round. Andersen posted a terrible .896 save % in 7 playoff games this year. To put this in perspective, a much younger Reimer was replaced after posting a .923 save % in the playoffs in his first ever playoff year (and a .924 save % in that shortened regular season).

Reimer got one chance in the playoffs to be a starter before he was thrown under the bus after just turning 24. Andersen has already had two with the Leafs and extended looks with the Ducks. I certainly believe in second chances, and Andersen, who will be 29 in October, has been given a great deal of rope. But next season will not be about how we do in the regular season. Next season will be a failure if we don't win a playoff round, in my opinion, and our goalie has to step up and be better when the pressure rises or else I'm not sure how he continues starting.

 

[hfman]

The team was much worse in those years, and much more poorly coached. Ultimately, all I'm saying in that regard is, despite the team being "better" now than it was then, Reimer is still the guy who got the Leafs the furthest in the playoffs since Belfour (game 7 OT), albeit with a major team collapse.

Bernier also had very good, and statistically better, stretches of play in the regular season compared to Andersen. Then again, he faded when the going got tough. My point is, the regular season is not the most important indicator going forward if we are measuring progress. This is a playoff team. Andersen has proven to be at least an above average starter in the regular season. But in the next few years, we need to take steps forward, and that process begins with winning a playoff round.

People are defending Andersen with this better team after losing twice in the first round. Andersen posted a terrible .896 save % in 7 playoff games this year. To put this in perspective, a much younger Reimer was replaced after posting a .923 save % in the playoffs in his first ever playoff year (and a .924 save % in that shortened regular season).

Reimer got one chance in the playoffs to be a starter before he was thrown under the bus after just turning 24. Andersen has already had two with the Leafs and extended looks with the Ducks. I certainly believe in second chances, and Andersen, who will be 29 in October, has been given a great deal of rope. But next season will not be about how we do in the regular season. Next season will be a failure if we don't win a playoff round, in my opinion, and our goalie has to step up and be better when the pressure rises or else I'm not sure how he continues starting.

More Reimer love. His flame just won't die with you guys

While we're at it let's keep discussing Toskala, Giguere and Trevor Kidd as well. Come on, surely there are some guys leftover who still love those goalies too?? It's unfair that Reimer gets all your attention while they just get the cold shoulder

 

[MikeBabchuk]

More Reimer love. His flame just won't die with you guys

While we're at it let's keep discussing Toskala, Giguere and Trevor Kidd as well. Come on, surely there are some guys leftover who still love those goalies too?? It's unfair that Reimer gets all your attention while they just get the cold shoulder

I'd rather compare Andersen to other goalies that we've had success with in "recent" years. Potvin, Joseph, Belfour, and Reimer have all gotten the Leafs farther in the playoffs than Andersen, to this point.

Reimer is in the past but what happened with him is still a precedent that is relevant to the current situation. I will say that I am still bothered by what happened at the time and leave it at that. I don't want to throw Andersen under the bus either, but he's 5 years older and has had two chances in the playoffs now, so it's something to think about.

 

[34]

Elite? Andersen is awful! This team will never win with him as the starting goalie. f***ing garbage.

 

[Walshy7]

I'd rather compare Andersen to other goalies that we've had success with in "recent" years. Potvin, Joseph, Belfour, and Reimer have all gotten the Leafs farther in the playoffs than Andersen, to this point.

Reimer is in the past but what happened with him is still a precedent that is relevant to the current situation. I will say that I am still bothered by what happened at the time and leave it at that. I don't want to throw Andersen under the bus either, but he's 5 years older and has had two chances in the playoffs now, so it's something to think about.

well that's blatantly false. Reimer got us to game 7 of the 1st round and then crumbled mentally, Andersen got us to game 7 of the 1st round and also mentally wasn't all there but nowhere near Reimer levels though.

Also Reimer got us there in a 48 game season, Andersen got us there twice in 2 82 game seasons. Reimer is barely even a good backaup closer to average backup really

 

[Gallagbi]

well that's blatantly false. Reimer got us to game 7 of the 1st round and then crumbled mentally, Andersen got us to game 7 of the 1st round and also mentally wasn't all there but nowhere near Reimer levels though.

Also Reimer got us there in a 48 game season, Andersen got us there twice in 2 82 game seasons. Reimer is barely even a good backaup closer to average backup really

Not sure what you meant by the bolded, Reims was much, much better that playoff than Andy. Worse during his term, but if we're looking at playoffs he was a lot better.

 

[Walshy7]

Not sure what you meant by the bolded, Reims was much, much better that playoff than Andy. Worse during his term, but if we're looking at playoffs he was a lot better.

really? an historic meltdown and he cant make a simple save? or even a regular save. Reimer lost the plot in that game 7 not 100% on him obviously but majority blame falls on him. We didn't lose a massive lead in game 7 this year. Andersen let in a soft goal and the scores were level. Playoffs overall? very similar outside of game 7, Reimer and Andersen won us 2-3 games and were bad in the ones we lost

 

[Gallagbi]

really? an historic meltdown and he cant make a simple save? or even a regular save. Reimer lost the plot in that game 7 not 100% on him obviously but majority blame falls on him. We didn't lose a massive lead in game 7 this year. Andersen let in a soft goal and the scores were level. Playoffs overall? very similar outside of game 7, Reimer and Andersen won us 2-3 games and were bad in the ones we lost

Nah, Reimer let in 2 goals late and I didn't love the GTG, but none were as bad as Freddy's GTG or GWG. Reimer was also much better in his wins and losses. We won some games in spite of Freddy this year, can't say the same for Reimer in 2013. It shows in their save%.

I absolutely understand the argument were better with Andersen, but he simply wasn't very good this playoffs. Hopefully just an off year.

 

[Walshy7]

Nah, Reimer let in 2 goals late and I didn't love the GTG, but none were as bad as Freddy's GTG or GWG. Reimer was also much better in his wins and losses. We won some games in spite of Freddy this year, can't say the same for Reimer in 2013. It shows in their save%.

I absolutely understand the argument were better with Andersen, but he simply wasn't very good this playoffs. Hopefully just an off year.

ok ill leave it at this. How many times has Reimer played a season as a starting goaltender? the answer is 2 or 3, 40~ game seasons he was at his best a tandem goaltender so if he is playing less games does that not mean there is less chance where the team HAS to bail him out?. Freddy has one season where he played less games than Reimer. Sv% needs context we could never trust mentally soft Reimer to play more than 40 games yet Andersen plays 60 plus. We didn't let Reimer fail enough as a starter it seems because how people think he is even a starting goalie let alone close to Andersen is beyond me

 

[Skin Tape Session]

Andersen is elite, yes, esp compared to his peers. He's no roy or belfour or hasek but few guys are. I think the only current goalies who could be in that realm are Price and Luongo 2006 through 2012.

I am happy we have andy, it doesn't matter if he is the best in the league or veznia blah bla. what matters is if he wins games and the boys believe in him. The answer to both of those is yes so that ends it for me.

 

[Gallagbi]

ok ill leave it at this. How many times has Reimer played a season as a starting goaltender? the answer is 2 or 3, 40~ game seasons he was at his best a tandem goaltender so if he is playing less games does that not mean there is less chance where the team HAS to bail him out?. Freddy has one season where he played less games than Reimer. Sv% needs context we could never trust mentally soft Reimer to play more than 40 games yet Andersen plays 60 plus. We didn't let Reimer fail enough as a starter it seems because how people think he is even a starting goalie let alone close to Andersen is beyond me

Thought I clarified this in the last 2 posts, but I'm only talking about the 7 game series against Boston.

 

[Advanced stats]

Sae

Elite? Andersen is awful! This team will never win with him as the starting goalie. ****ing garbage.

sarcasm I'm assuming?

 

[Pyrophorus]

At times
Its also time to have had stop less shots, play less games
That's on other personnel, who have to be changed.

 

[Gallagbi]

Andersen is elite, yes, esp compared to his peers. He's no roy or belfour or hasek but few guys are. I think the only current goalies who could be in that realm are Price and Luongo 2006 through 2012.

I am happy we have andy, it doesn't matter if he is the best in the league or veznia blah bla. what matters is if he wins games and the boys believe in him. The answer to both of those is yes so that ends it for me.

Doesn't the bolded basically define elite? So if he's not that, then....

Only argument I've seen for him being elite is workload, and really that doesn't cut it for me. That's how a guy like Raycrofts ended up with our wins record.

 

[Buds17]

Doesn't the bolded basically define elite? So if he's not that, then....

Only argument I've seen for him being elite is workload, and really that doesn't cut it for me. That's how a guy like Raycrofts ended up with our wins record.

Andersen has put up a starter's workload for back-to-back playoff teams. His numbers have also been good in doing so. He needed to be better in the playoffs (Games 2 and 7 in particular), but in the other two losses, I believe the team scored one goal in each. Defeats there are about more than just goaltending. Hopefully, both goalie and team can take the required future steps forward.

 

[Gallagbi]

Andersen has put up a starter's workload for back-to-back playoff teams. His numbers have also been good in doing so. He needed to be better in the playoffs (Games 2 and 7 in particular), but in the other two losses, I believe the team scored one goal in each. Defeats there are about more than just goaltending. Hopefully, both goalie and team can take the required future steps forward.

Suggests he's more of an average starter than elite though, doesn't it?

 

[Buds17]

Suggests he's more of an average starter than elite though, doesn't it?

I'm thinking somewhere in between, so above average. A bit more consistency required. Need that goalie that can help get the team to the playoffs to begin with, which he had a good part in doing. Has to be better in the postseason. There's still time there.

 

[hector morrison]

Andesren Elite ? Not even close! Physically,he can get there...mentally,I'm not so sure. Goalies can be great later in their career,so far he appears to be fighting demons. Game 7 against Boston,most of the series actually he was not even NHL caliber.

 

[MikeBabchuk]

really? an historic meltdown and he cant make a simple save? or even a regular save. Reimer lost the plot in that game 7 not 100% on him obviously but majority blame falls on him. We didn't lose a massive lead in game 7 this year. Andersen let in a soft goal and the scores were level. Playoffs overall? very similar outside of game 7, Reimer and Andersen won us 2-3 games and were bad in the ones we lost

Reimer got it to OT, which is farther than regulation. Not that it really matters.

A .923 save % is far superior to an .896 save %. And Reimer was a kid. Andersen is almost a vet, especially in terms of playoff experience. The fact that Reimer, at barely age 24, gave us a chance every game in that series, his first playoff year, and with a relatively terrible team, is pretty impressive. Andersen, turning 29 this year, and with multiple playoff seasons under his belt, pooped the bed in multiple games. Let's call a spade a spade.

 

[hfman]

Reimer got it to OT, which is farther than regulation. Not that it really matters.

A .923 save % is far superior to an .896 save %. And Reimer was a kid. Andersen is almost a vet, especially in terms of playoff experience. The fact that Reimer, at barely age 24, gave us a chance every game in that series, his first playoff year, and with a relatively terrible team, is pretty impressive. Andersen, turning 29 this year, and with multiple playoff seasons under his belt, pooped the bed in multiple games. Let's call a spade a spade.

he's been gone how many years now?

All this Reimer love is borderline disturbing

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

First, yes. Soft goals are on the goalie. Andersen let in too many stinkers in the playoffs, specifically games 1,2, and 7. But the goalie at the other end of the ice was as bad as or worse, and his team won the series. Andersen is good enough to win with, and a change isn't needed.

Second, no. Reimer and Bernier weren't just as good as Andersen. Reimer had 3 seasons in Toronto with a GAA over 3. Freddy has never had a season over 3 in his career. Bernier was wildly inconsistant, and proved multiple times that he couldn't handle a starters workload.

It's not just that Andersen played more games, it's that he was capable of playing more games at a high level of quality.

Rask wasn't letting in ridiculous softies though, to be fair. Rask was a poor goalie who under-performed relative to his expected sv% slightly, but Andersen did even worse. Rask had a pretty low hdsv%, but Andersen's low and medium danger save percentages were incredibly bad

that's what grinds my gears. Andersen had a really easy task in terms of outplaying Rask. All he had to do was stop the easy shots and then the Leafs likely win the series. But he didn't

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

ok ill leave it at this. How many times has Reimer played a season as a starting goaltender? the answer is 2 or 3, 40~ game seasons he was at his best a tandem goaltender so if he is playing less games does that not mean there is less chance where the team HAS to bail him out?. Freddy has one season where he played less games than Reimer. Sv% needs context we could never trust mentally soft Reimer to play more than 40 games yet Andersen plays 60 plus. We didn't let Reimer fail enough as a starter it seems because how people think he is even a starting goalie let alone close to Andersen is beyond me

Walshy man.. Andersen is better than Reimer no need to go off the deep end.... All I know is Andersen let in 6 goals with a few of those being some weak stuff in a game 7. Reimer let in 5 with one being the overtime goal. Reimer had a better playoff series than Andersen did when looking at totality. Doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. Marner had a better series than Matthews. Again, in the grand scheme of things that doesn't mean much.

 

[MikeBabchuk]

he's been gone how many years now?

All this Reimer love is borderline disturbing

It was one of many unfathomably terrible decisions by David Nono.

 

[Prince N]

WTF...I can't believe these Andersen threads. Put him on a team like the Jets with some better d-men and he would have the best stats in the NHL.