Interesting tidbit from an early 2018 draft ranking

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/2018-nhl-draft.2363059/page-3



I was digging back through my own posts so I could call back up my randomly selected list of draftable names and I actually found this fun tidbit.

Apparently the 2018 draft rankings in early 2017 are very very favorable to Detroit.

3,4, and 5 in the rankings all came to Detroit - Zadina, Veleno, and McIssac

And just for reference, my very unscientific selections from before draft time. Huh, I must have thought that we had no shot at Zadina. I do think it's kinda funny that Kotkaniemi and Hayton were both on my DO NOT DRAFT list.

Guys I want from the top 31
------------
Rasmus Dahlin
Oliver Wahlstrom
Adam Boqvist
Brady Tkachuk
Noah Dobson
Ryan Merkley

Guys we should stay away from at all costs.
--------------
Grigori Denisenko
Jesperi Kotkaniemi
K'Andre Miller
Jett Woo
Alexander Alexeeyev
Barrett Hayton
Dominik Bokk
Isac Lundestrom

Click to read more...

 

[Frk It]

#6 - Zadina (had him ranked #3)
#31 - Veleno (had him ranked #12)
#33 - Berggren (had him ranked #34)
#36 McIsaac - (had him ranked #17)

This was my end of season board... so we walked away with 3 guys I had ranked top 20. Maybe I had Veleno and McIsaac ranked a bit high in hindsight, but I can see why the Wings were excited about their haul. I imagine they walked away with guys they had high on their board as well.

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/post-your-2018-draft-board.2496579/

 

[HisNoodliness]

Yeah personally I had Zadina 4, Veleno 12, Berggren 17 and McIsaac 28 so that's a really good haul from my list. McIsaac fell pretty hard over the course of the season (does he give anyone else Brendan Smith vibes as a D that has bouts of inconsistency offensively due to decision-making?)

Of course Veleno didn't fall much until draft day. I still think he should be in the conversation for best C in the draft (stightly begind Kotkaniemi and ahead of Hayton). So he's the big steal for us. I also love Berggren so I'm happy to grab a personal favorite.

 

[Shaman464]

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/2018-nhl-draft.2363059/page-3



I was digging back through my own posts so I could call back up my randomly selected list of draftable names and I actually found this fun tidbit.

Apparently the 2018 draft rankings in early 2017 are very very favorable to Detroit.

3,4, and 5 in the rankings all came to Detroit - Zadina, Veleno, and McIssac

And just for reference, my very unscientific selections from before draft time. Huh, I must have thought that we had no shot at Zadina. I do think it's kinda funny that Kotkaniemi and Hayton were both on my DO NOT DRAFT list.

Guys I want from the top 31
------------
Rasmus Dahlin
Oliver Wahlstrom
Adam Boqvist
Brady Tkachuk
Noah Dobson
Ryan Merkley

Guys we should stay away from at all costs.
--------------
Grigori Denisenko
Jesperi Kotkaniemi
K'Andre Miller
Jett Woo
Alexander Alexeeyev
Barrett Hayton
Dominik Bokk
Isac Lundestrom

It scares me that McIsaac and Veleno dropped from top picks to basically outside of the first round. And I always thought the McIsaac hype was analogous to the McIntyre hype train.

 

[newfy]

It scares me that McIsaac and Veleno dropped from top picks to basically outside of the first round. And I always thought the McIsaac hype was analogous to the McIntyre hype train.

I wouldnt worry about Veleno. I think a big part of that fall was that he got exceptional status and wasnt absolutely dominant, hes a good pick at 30. McIsaac didnt do much offensively this year and fell but hes still a rock defensively. Just as many guys who fall in their draft year make it as much as they bust. For every Esposito theres a Brandon Saad or Fowler. Lets hope at least one of those guys end up like that

Without exceptional status where do people think Veleno gets picked? Theres no high centers in this draft so he goes about a point a game on a brutal team where hes the best player, then he goes to the best offensive team and puts up Zadina type numbers. I think someone wouldve taken him a lot higher than the wings got him. Maybe not at 3 like Kotkaniemi, but his numbers in Drummondville were insanely good

 

[Wingsfan 4 life]

I wouldnt worry about Veleno. I think a big part of that fall was that he got exceptional status and wasnt absolutely dominant, hes a good pick at 30. McIsaac didnt do much offensively this year and fell but hes still a rock defensively. Just as many guys who fall in their draft year make it as much as they bust. For every Esposito theres a Brandon Saad or Fowler. Lets hope at least one of those guys end up like that

Without exceptional status where do people think Veleno gets picked? Theres no high centers in this draft so he goes about a point a game on a brutal team where hes the best player, then he goes to the best offensive team and puts up Zadina type numbers. I think someone wouldve taken him a lot higher than the wings got him. Maybe not at 3 like Kotkaniemi, but his numbers in Drummondville were insanely good

I don't think exceptional status played any part in where Veleno got picked. IMO, the draft plays out the same way if he wasn't granted exceptional staus.

It's been what? Three years since Veleno was granted that status. Scouts aren't paying attention to labels placed on teenagers, otherwise Sean Day would've been picked 1st overall instead of 4th in the OHL draft.

 

[newfy]

I don't think exceptional status played any part in where Veleno got picked. IMO, the draft plays out the same way if he wasn't granted exceptional staus.

It's been what? Three years since Veleno was granted that status. Scouts aren't paying attention to labels placed on teenagers, otherwise Sean Day would've been picked 1st overall instead of 4th in the OHL draft.

No Veleno has played in that league and not broken out like he wasnt expected to due to that exceptional status. Scouts have gotten to watch him longer and nit pick his game. If Ty Dellandrea played one more year of junior with exceptional status and just had that season that he did vs the year Veleno just had, do you think they each get drafted in the same spot?

 

[Frk It]

It scares me that McIsaac and Veleno dropped from top picks to basically outside of the first round. And I always thought the McIsaac hype was analogous to the McIntyre hype train.

McIntyre? Hope you’re not referring to McIlrath.

I can always get behind drafting centers that skate like Veleno. I think his offensive game can develop some more, but if not he should still be able to be a solid 3rd line center like Cogliano, Vermette, or Helm.

McIsaac is a little bit more of a wild card, but when he is on his game he’s a really effective two way D. I do have some concerns he did not have better production on a high scoring team like Halifax. He was billed as an offensive guy in Midget, we will see if there is still some untapped ability there. If not, I think he could pivot and embrace being a shut down guy kind of like Brad Stuart did. I think some of his IQ issues might be neutralized if he simplified his game and accepted a little bit of a different role.

 

[Shaman464]

McIntyre? Hope you’re not referring to McIlrath.

Apparently my iPhone doesn't have autocorrect for NHL player names, that's who I meant. And why not? I think they have a lot more in common than people think.

 

[Larkin1578]

McIntyre? Hope you’re not referring to McIlrath.

I can always get behind drafting centers that skate like Veleno. I think his offensive game can develop some more, but if not he should still be able to be a solid 3rd line center like Cogliano, Vermette, or Helm.

McIsaac is a little bit more of a wild card, but when he is on his game he’s a really effective two way D. I do have some concerns he did not have better production on a high scoring team like Halifax. He was billed as an offensive guy in Midget, we will see if there is still some untapped ability there. If not, I think he could pivot and embrace being a shut down guy kind of like Brad Stuart did. I think some of his IQ issues might be neutralized if he simplified his game and accepted a little bit of a different role.

I like to think of drafting Veleno to make up for passing on Gabriel Vilardi last year. Its a plus that he has so much value at pick 30. I feel Veleno is going to be better than Vilardi anyways!

 

[Frk It]

Apparently my iPhone doesn't have autocorrect for NHL player names, that's who I meant. And why not? I think they have a lot more in common than people think.

McIsaac visibly has a much better skill set, for starters. Way, way better skater.

McIlrath never showed offense at any level of hockey he played at, really. McIsaac was +ppg at the midget level, and his CHL production is also markedly better than what McIlrath could muster.

PPG in Juniors when drafted:

McIsaac = .637 PPG
McIlrath = .237 PPG

 

[Shaman464]

McIsaac visibly has a much better skill set, for starters. Way, way better skater.

McIlrath never showed offense at any level of hockey he played at, really. McIsaac was +ppg at the midget level, and his CHL production is also markedly better than what McIlrath could muster.

PPG in Juniors when drafted:

McIsaac = .637 PPG
McIlrath = .237 PPG

Not really a fair comparison, as the WHL teams in the late 2000's scored around 0.2 ppg less per game than current QMJHL teams, and McIlarth was on a particularly anemic offensive team Moose Jaw, which didn't have players like Zadina. So comparing PPG is an apples to oranges comparison because it doesn't take into account that McIsaac got to feed one of the best offensive talents in the league, and in a league that is higher scoring.

 

[Bench]

McIlrath was universally considered a huge reach for the Rangers at the time. There were warning flags all over him only being a big boy.

 

[Wingsfan 4 life]

No Veleno has played in that league and not broken out like he wasnt expected to due to that exceptional status. Scouts have gotten to watch him longer and nit pick his game. If Ty Dellandrea played one more year of junior with exceptional status and just had that season that he did vs the year Veleno just had, do you think they each get drafted in the same spot?

Yes. Exceptional status as a 15 year old plays no role in where that player is drafted as a 18 year old.

The only role that exceptional status plays at all in the NHL draft is it adds an additional layer of expectations from fans.

 

[HisNoodliness]

Yes. Exceptional status as a 15 year old plays no role in where that player is drafted as a 18 year old.

The only role that exceptional status plays at all in the NHL draft is it adds an additional layer of expectations from fans.

I give scouts less credit than you do. I think that overscouting some players vs. others is a very real problem. After you become familiar with a player's game it becomes much easier to focus on the small flaws which you may not have noticed yet in another player's game. Veleno has been scouted heavily for a long time, and I think it is one of the main reasons for his fall. NHL scouts aren't infallible; in fact, I'm not convinced that they're even good (not trying to suggest that we here on HF are better or anything crazy like that).

 

[Shaman464]

McIlrath was universally considered a huge reach for the Rangers at the time. There were warning flags all over him only being a big boy.

The comparison was made to the fact that both were drafted by their teams with ideas that they would fill a top 4 role, and I honestly don't see McIsaac doing that, and with him being the top defender Detroit drafted in what was touted to be a very deep draft for defenders, he's kind of a disappointment. I see him being a McIlrath in that he's going to be a bottom 6 guy who never really finds a home in the NHL.

 

[Frk It]

The comparison was made to the fact that both were drafted by their teams with ideas that they would fill a top 4 role, and I honestly don't see McIsaac doing that

Why?

 

[newfy]

Yes. Exceptional status as a 15 year old plays no role in where that player is drafted as a 18 year old.

The only role that exceptional status plays at all in the NHL draft is it adds an additional layer of expectations from fans.

You can choose to believe that but I'm pretty sure guys get overscouted when theyve had exposure from a young age. Veleno has been watched forever and I'm sure teams had reasons to let him drop. But like I said with Dellandrea, he came out of nowhere and had a good u18/good season this year but had he not came out of nowhere, teams would've had time to find some flaws as well.

Based on Velenos draft year, he got picked too low. He would be considered the ultimate riser after he got traded to Drummondville producing like Zadina

 

[Mister Ed]

Based on Velenos draft year, he got picked too low. He would be considered the ultimate riser after he got traded to Drummondville producing like Zadina

Veleno was at 1.45 pts/game
Zadina was 1.44 pts/game

Great catch!

 

[newfy]

Veleno was at 1.45 pts/game
Zadina was 1.44 pts/game

Great catch!

I'm not saying Veleno is even close to Zadina either as a prospect. But he did play over half his season producing at a higher clip. I think theres more potential offense than people want to give credit for and I think a lot of that is because he didnt end up like a McDavid orTavares in junior.

 

[lilidk]

Can we compare Veleno to Larkin.? I hope Veleno has higher ceiling.

 

[BinCookin]

I think its important to remember we got Veleno at 30. Sure he fell from 12-14 down to 30. So maybe he is only a #25 real rank player in the end. But it seems like since he fell, he could surprise. We should only expect a 3rd line C for a #30th OA pick. If he becomes more than a 3rd line C.... great.

 

[BinCookin]

Can we compare Veleno to Larkin.? I hope Veleno has higher ceiling.

I mean we can do anything.

Veleno apparently is a really fast skater. Larkin is a really fast skater.
Veleno is primarily a play maker, rather than a shooter.
According to Larkin's MO... he is more of a Shooter than a passer.

This past season, Larkin didn't shoot as well, but did get points. I figure a lot of those points are the result of insanely high ice time. He should probably play more like 18.5 min a night, not 20. If we had a more well rounded team. I can safely say Larkin is at least a 50Pt player moving forward.

We are going to pay him like a 60Pt player though. So we will see if he can maintain that production. As he will easily be our #1 C.... its hard to see him produce much less than 55pts.

 

[ChadS]

Can we compare Veleno to Larkin.? I hope Veleno has higher ceiling.

I think Veleno is kind of similar to Filppula, in terms of both style and upside.

 

[Henkka]

McIsaac is a little bit more of a wild card, but when he is on his game he’s a really effective two way D. I do have some concerns he did not have better production on a high scoring team like Halifax. He was billed as an offensive guy in Midget, we will see if there is still some untapped ability there. If not, I think he could pivot and embrace being a shut down guy kind of like Brad Stuart did. I think some of his IQ issues might be neutralized if he simplified his game and accepted a little bit of a different role.

I could see Marc-Edouard Vlasic career path in him. Never drives the offence but rock solid defensive 1st pair D.