Interesting Info: Part XIV (All Jackets-related "tidbits" in here)

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CBJWerenski8

Formerly CBJWennberg10 (RIP Kivi)
Jun 13, 2009
42,292
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Commodore was great his first year here and thats the truth, but him saying he played at the same level the next 2 years are sadly untrue, he was awful.

And yes, Arniel is a dick. How did he even get the job? Smooth talk Howson?
 

TheOllieC

cajun filet
Jul 12, 2013
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I've been to arguably the best jewelry store in the world...

And Meyer's Jewelers... It was better...

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Nanabijou

Booooooooooone
Dec 22, 2009
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Commodore Interview:



http://habshermy11.blogspot.com/2013/11/i-would-have-loved-to-have-stayed-in.html?spref=tw

The Arniel stuff is enlightening to say the least...

i know there's two sides to every story, but that meshes with what i had heard...so even more **** Arniel...

Great read. I don't dispute that Arniel did some crazy things when he was here.

I doubt Commie was blameless, however. If I had to guess, the care-free attitude that Commie seemed to have probably drove Arniel nuts. Here was guy who clawed his career out in the NHL and then slugged it out in the AHL after that. It probably wasn't just because Commie was single per se, it was likely more that he was hitting the town on a near-nightly basis (which he could because he was single) instead of being the studious hockey monk that Arniel wanted him to be.

Anyways, the whole thing was just a total debacle and I'm glad it's in the past, but it is pretty interesting to hear a pretty unwashed view of it from Commie's side.
 

Xoggz22

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Mar 4, 2002
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I wonder what's to blame for this year's train wreck? I know they'll play well after the Olympic break and pick 14th again this year. Another year I'll need to make the tough decision to renew.... I just have a hard time supporting this team right now. Damn you Arniel....
 

Iron Balls McGinty

Registered User
Aug 5, 2005
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Commodore was great his first year here and thats the truth, but him saying he played at the same level the next 2 years are sadly untrue, he was awful.

And yes, Arniel is a dick. How did he even get the job? Smooth talk Howson?

Did I miss that statement in the interview? I remember reading the statement where his first year was his best, he struggled with groin problems the 2nd and then got in Arniel's doghouse for the 3rd.
 

CBJWerenski8

Formerly CBJWennberg10 (RIP Kivi)
Jun 13, 2009
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Did I miss that statement in the interview? I remember reading the statement where his first year was his best, he struggled with groin problems the 2nd and then got in Arniel's doghouse for the 3rd.

He said he was playing the best hockey of his career when Arniel benched him
 

alphafox

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Jun 14, 2011
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I wonder what's to blame for this year's train wreck? I know they'll play well after the Olympic break and pick 14th again this year. Another year I'll need to make the tough decision to renew.... I just have a hard time supporting this team right now. Damn you Arniel....

Quite frankly the "train wreck" is the fan's fault for believing last years team was the real blue jackets. As for the regression from the team we saw last year my list of factors are as follows:

Bob's return to earth
Richards inability to get the jackets to play the forecheck game that got them to within sniffing distance of the playoffs
Lack of talent (Gaborik has been awful, and we don't have a first line or a #1 D-man (murray may be there someday, ditto Joey)


Hopefully this gives Davidson and Jarmo the excuse to blow up the team like they should have last year. Ship out Tyutin, Nikitin, Gaborik, Umberger for picks and veterans who can teach the kids the right way to play. Joey, Murray, Erixon, and Atkinson are all good developing players and with Wennberg and Rychel on the way we are looking at having solid group of top 6 forwards under 24, too which we can add players.
 

NotWendell

Has also never won the lottery.
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Oct 31, 2005
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It's a long season. With a young team there will be ebbs and flows. The very WORST thing Jarmo can do right now is to try to blow stuff up.
 

Palinka

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Dec 19, 2007
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Commodore was great his first year here and thats the truth, but him saying he played at the same level the next 2 years are sadly untrue, he was awful.

And yes, Arniel is a dick. How did he even get the job? Smooth talk Howson?

The hiring of Scott Arniel is a textbook example of what happens when someone from ownership or someone who did not make his career in professional sports gets involved in the hiring process. Someone who is successful in business has a different mentality that is usually incongruous with success in sports. That's true in about 98% of cases.

Someone from the business side of operations will light up when they hear words like accountability, or speak of demands, or otherwise speak in absolutes. Someone from the ops side of things will tune out when they hear these, because it just doesn't work that way.
 

blahblah

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Nov 24, 2005
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Who would have thunk "accountability" was a bad word. Heard that come from pretty darn near every head coach like ever - successful or otherwise. Its akin to saying they breath.

Tell ya what Palinka; you spend a few hundred million on a team and you can take yourself out of the hiring equation(s).
 
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cbjgirl

Just thinking
Jan 19, 2006
3,681
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about last summer.
To Palinka's and Blahblah's points...

This is obviously just my opinion here.

In both business and sports, there are people as well as assets that need to be managed. In an industrial setting, I would think that assets (materials, equipment, buildings) would take the higher priority just because that is where the most value is. If Bob the welder isn't doing his job, dump him and get a new welder. The equipment Bob uses is worth more to the business than Bob (sorry Bob).

In sports, you need people and systems in place to manage people. If Bob the goalie (currently making $5 million) is having a rough time, you need to handle him in such a way to get his head back on straight. Bob the goalie is worth more than the equipment he uses.
The management style would have to be different. Your people are the most valuable, handle them accordingly.

I'm sure we have all worked with managers at work who were either good at handling people or bad.

If Arniel was a complete dud at picking up whether a guy needed a kick in the pants or a pat on the back when things were going poorly, that is going to make life difficult in the room and on the ice.

If Priest can't tell the difference between a asset manager and people manager, then I can see where that would lead to problems too.

I would think that you need at least one coach who is a very good people manager. The GM could be an asset manager and that wouldn't be a problem.
 

Mayor Bee

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Dec 29, 2008
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Who would have thunk "accountability" was a bad word. Heard that come from pretty darn near every head coach like ever - successful or otherwise. Its akin to saying they breath.

There's a big difference between accountability and "accountability". Reds fans may remember the short tenure of a manager named Vern Rapp, which was less of a disaster than Rapp's tenure in St. Louis.

Here's the quick version. Rapp was a very successful minor league manager, and St. Louis had a reputation as a talented but soft team that tended to underachieve. Basically the entire team was under age 30, except for Lou Brock (still starting in the outfield at 37). It was thought that they needed discipline and accountability, and no one knew that better than whichever of the Busch family actively participated in the hiring process. Who better than Rapp, who's the one who slammed his fist down and raised hell about discipline and accountability?

Rapp's idea of what constituted poor discipline:
- Lou Brock, the unquestioned leader of the team, let his sideburns get a little bit thick. They had to go.
- Al Hrabosky, one of the best closers in the league, had bushy hair and a mustache as well as a series of gyrations that led to him being branded "The Mad Hungarian". This was a constant source of tension, and finally Hrabosky was ordered to look, dress, and act more like a West Point cadet. After months of haranguing, he quietly requested a trade, which was promptly made public by Rapp and Busch.
- Ted Simmons, one of the best catchers in the league and one of the 10 best of all-time, had several interests outside of baseball connected to charity and the community. Rapp felt this was a sign of lack of commitment, and routinely hounded Simmons for it.
- Keith Hernandez had a mustache. That was an issue.
- Oddly enough, the only player who truly lacked discipline was Garry ("If I ain't startin', I ain't departin'.") Templeton, and Rapp got no more out of him than any ensuing manager ever would.

As you can see, none of this has anything to do with discipline or accountability. It's nothing but petty crap that's normally an issue only for the neurotic control freaks who are able to have success in the minors and then flame out in the majors. High school coaches can do it, college coaches can do it, and it never works above that level.

Rapp lasted barely a year. In 1977 (his full season), there had been a meeting that was supposed to clear the air. Rapp turned it into an all-out attack on the players, then announced that he would refuse to change or bend on petty things when Lou Brock said that it would help alleviate the tension. After a win in April 1978, Ted Simmons put on some music in the clubhouse, with Rapp angrily turning it off and yelling at Simmons that he was "a (expletive) loser". Jack Buck (who was standing right there) asked if Rapp meant that, which he affirmed. Buck went on the air and told the listening audience that Rapp had called Simmons a loser, and Rapp was canned the next day.

Now, consider what we've all heard of the Arniel tenure. Was he really demanding accountability, or "accountability"?
 

Fro

Cheatin on CBJ w TBL
Mar 11, 2009
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since there's no GDT yet....dat first line!

Aaron Portzline ‏@Aportzline 23s
#CBJ lines: 71-19-38; 11-42-13; 14-55-18; ?-39-?
 

Mayor Bee

Registered User
Dec 29, 2008
18,085
531
To Palinka's and Blahblah's points...

This is obviously just my opinion here.

In both business and sports, there are people as well as assets that need to be managed. In an industrial setting, I would think that assets (materials, equipment, buildings) would take the higher priority just because that is where the most value is. If Bob the welder isn't doing his job, dump him and get a new welder. The equipment Bob uses is worth more to the business than Bob (sorry Bob).

In sports, you need people and systems in place to manage people. If Bob the goalie (currently making $5 million) is having a rough time, you need to handle him in such a way to get his head back on straight. Bob the goalie is worth more than the equipment he uses.
The management style would have to be different. Your people are the most valuable, handle them accordingly.

I'm sure we have all worked with managers at work who were either good at handling people or bad.

If Arniel was a complete dud at picking up whether a guy needed a kick in the pants or a pat on the back when things were going poorly, that is going to make life difficult in the room and on the ice.

If Priest can't tell the difference between a asset manager and people manager, then I can see where that would lead to problems too.

I would think that you need at least one coach who is a very good people manager. The GM could be an asset manager and that wouldn't be a problem.

Excellent post.

For me, the managers who I've looked at as some type of ideal are Earl Weaver, Whitey Herzog, Walt Alston, and Tommy Lasorda. On the surface, you couldn't find four more dissimilar individuals. Weaver was high-strung and didn't express any emotions outside of anger, Herzog was a rube who'd go fishing before a doubleheader, Alston the quiet hand on the helm, and Lasorda the overly-emotional guy about whom it was said "they'll never win since they're too busy hugging each other". Weaver was said to be cold, Herzog a back-slapper, Alston aloof, and Lasorda almost like family.

Yet when you get down to it, all four were cut from different corners of the same cloth. Each would defend his players in public, (almost) no matter how bad they'd actually screwed up. Weaver would put himself between a player and an umpire, getting himself ejected but keeping his player in the game. Herzog preached aggression to the extreme; he was probably the most aggressive manager in MLB history, but if someone ran into an out trying to turn a single into a double, he'd defend that guy to the end. Alston would never criticize a player in public, and would never do anything that would embarrass a player in front of his teammates or fans either. Lasorda, of course, would never do anything but hug a guy who was down for whatever reason.

For management structure, Lasorda and Alston operated under the Dodgers' system, where the overwhelming number of personnel decisions were made by committee above the manager. The Orioles with Weaver had a similar structure, but he was a big part of that committee. Herzog was his own GM. All four were able to have success for extended periods of times because fundamentally they understood that it's possible to push a guy too hard and also to not push him enough. Herzog loved Joaquin Andujar, who was a goofball; he got more out of Andujar than was thought possible. Weaver had a couple of guys like that with Mike Cuellar (high-strung) and Jim Palmer (neurotic), and so on. Weaver's handling of pitchers defied logic, and the actual staggering successful results defied logic as well.
 

blahblah

Registered User
Nov 24, 2005
21,327
972
There's a big difference between accountability and "accountability".

Not during an interview there isn't. To be honest, I'm not going to read your entire post. I got across what I wanted to and you aren't talking about anything that I wrote or implied. No need for some history lesson for something I wasn't even talking about.

Just another attempt to deflect from a previous inept GM of ours (Palinka's attempt). Even if Howson had nothing to do with the hire (in which he should have just resigned or force them to fire him than put his name through the mud for a bad decision); there was still plenty to hold him accountable or "accountable" for.

Palinka was talking hiring process; let's not move beyond that into the actual tenure.
 
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Iron Balls McGinty

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Aug 5, 2005
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He said he was playing the best hockey of his career when Arniel benched him

he actually said he was playing "some" of the best hockey of his career.

"Came back and was playing some of the best hockey of my career....my stats for that year finished at 20 games played, 2 game winning goals, 3 assists, 44 pims, and -8."

But it was only a 20 game sample so its really apples and oranges. He did have 2 goals and 4 assists. Over the course of an entire season, he would have had similar stats to the playoff year if you take out the horrendous +/-, which would have been bad for the entire team.

He actually said this in regards to the playoff year.

"For me personally it was my best regular season as a professional. Statistically my second year in Carolina was better...but overall 2008-2009 was my best year."
 
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