Incentive to test cap ceiling

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I'll start off by saying this is not another cap circumvention thread. I'm not trying to drag the Lightning, Hawks, or any team other team for how they've maneuvered the cap.

However, it seems abundantly clear that there's no real danger in the current iteration of the league of being cap compliant. Whether its teams putting players on LTIR for unquestionable or questionable reasons, having injury timelines line up right with the start of the playoffs, teams trading away a player they could manage to trade away, giving up picks/prospects to take a contract, players taking discounts right when a team needs it, teams buying out a player when they need the cap space, we've seen so many teams, such as the Lightning, Hawks, Leafs, Islanders, Knights skirt the cap very closely when many people thought they wouldn't be able to come in below the cap ceiling.

If there's no real danger of being above the cap, why should teams not attempt to spend at least to the limit? And when the occasional circumstance comes up that you need to budget above it to keep certain players, recent history tells us that you are going to find some solution to become cap compliant.

Does the league need to address this? Because right now teams are not scared off by the cap ceiling. Tightening up on some of these loopholes that teams use might be needed. Otherwise, the cap ceiling is just an abstract idea that isn't relevant towards roster construction. Teams know they can always afford to keep all the main players they want to. There's no real incentive to believe a core player or even a main secondary player won't fit within the cap of a team.

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[OppositeLocK]

Because some teams are poor and have to rely on MLSE to keep them afloat.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

I think this does have to be addressed before it gets even further out of hand, if TB wins the cup again this year it won't take long before the other teams that make big $ will start using this loophole to grab even more players.
Could you imagine if Toronto was like JT is hurt, lets spend 10 extra million dollars? Riots I tell ya LOL

 

[DonM]

I think this does have to be addressed before it gets even further out of hand, if TB wins the cup again this year it won't take long before the other teams that make big $ will start using this loophole to grab even more players.
Could you imagine if Toronto was like JT is hurt, lets spend 10 extra million dollars? Riots I tell ya LOL

Tavares is going to be happy to just take a year off for no reason? Count me as skeptical.

 

[ruaware41]

Tavares is going to be happy to just take a year off for no reason? Count me as skeptical.

The TB staff must be loaded with charisma and have tons of koolaid on hand then considering not 1 but 2 of their stars seemed to be injured all year right before the real games

 

[North Cole]

More teams being near the ceiling is more money back in escrow so the owners dont really care.

GMs all want the ability to have ltir flexibility so change isn't in their individual interest. They arent around long enough to care about 10 years down the road in most cases, so they load up AAV to get job security and wins today.

More players on ltir is more salaries so the NHLPA is happy and doesn't care to change it. Honestly the NHLPA probably loves 96m payroll teams....more jobs

The system seems to benefit all parties...why would it be changed? Only party that seems to be mad is fans lmao.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

This thread is bonkers. If teams go over the cap, they forfeit their games, period. Thats as serious a consequence as it gets. So, of course teams take that very seriously. That's why they micro manage every move to ensure they are always within the limits.
Tampa has been making moves every year to stay under the cap, do you think they traded JT Miller just for fun? Had Kucherov not gotten hurt, they would have paid whatever price necessary to move Johnson and likely Killorn or others to fit under the cap and gotten on with the season.

 

[kij]

Well, the real reason all teams should not spend to the cap, the fact that it actually skews hockey-related revenue from a 50/50 split to in the player's favor. The cap was designed in a way that if some teams spent to the upper limit, some spent near the cap floor (like Ottawa has done in their rebuild), and the majority of teams spent somewhere in the middle, player salaries would amount to roughly 50% of hockey-related revenue and the owners get what they feel is their "fair share."

Taking away individual views over who should receive the bulk of the money, this was a good idea in theory. In practice, few teams will spend below the cap regardless of their current roster's ability to contend. A part of the plan was for teams to have a cyclical payroll where when they rebuild, their payroll drops. Instead the payroll stays near the cap ceiling as teams wait for contracts to expire.

 

[DonM]

Well, the real reason all teams should not spend to the cap, the fact that it actually skews hockey-related revenue from a 50/50 split to in the player's favor. The cap was designed in a way that if some teams spent to the upper limit, some spent near the cap floor (like Ottawa has done in their rebuild), and the majority of teams spent somewhere in the middle, player salaries would amount to roughly 50% of hockey-related revenue and the owners get what they feel is their "fair share."

Taking away individual views over who should receive the bulk of the money, this was a good idea in theory. In practice, few teams will spend below the cap regardless of their current roster's ability to contend. A part of the plan was for teams to have a cyclical payroll where when they rebuild, their payroll drops. Instead the payroll stays near the cap ceiling as teams wait for contracts to expire.

Players still only get 50% of HRR, even if every team spends to the ceiling. That's part of what escrow does.

 

[MarkusKetterer]

The cap ceiling is adjusted daily. I think it’s actually too complicated right now as it is. It should be that the team on the ice during game day should be cap compliant.

None of this “percentage of their contract” shit. The players on the ice is the cap hit. If it’s a team like Buffalo where they lost their biggest cap hit, then traded their third biggest, then add the people sitting in the press box (so basically on ice team + scratched/non-LTIR injured).

Besides people only complain about good teams using the cap space. Nobody is gonna complain about shitty teams using the “loophole”.

 

[Lunatik]

I think this does have to be addressed before it gets even further out of hand, if TB wins the cup again this year it won't take long before the other teams that make big $ will start using this loophole to grab even more players.
Could you imagine if Toronto was like JT is hurt, lets spend 10 extra million dollars? Riots I tell ya LOL

This is being blown assively out of proportion, the league investigates any injury where a player could come off LTIR for the playoffs. It's not like Kucherov was sitting healthy, in fact his ETA for a return was June. He just started skating a couple weeks prior to the playoffs too, The optimal timing of this is is just dumb luck.

 

[Lunatik]

The cap ceiling is adjusted daily. I think it’s actually too complicated right now as it is. It should be that the team on the ice during game day should be cap compliant.

None of this “percentage of their contract” shit. The players on the ice is the cap hit. If it’s a team like Buffalo where they lost their biggest cap hit, then traded their third biggest, then add the people sitting in the press box (so basically on ice team + scratched/non-LTIR injured).

Besides people only complain about good teams using the cap space. Nobody is gonna complain about shitty teams using the “loophole”.

It's really not that complicated. One of the reasons it is done this way is to encourage moves at the deadline.

 

[kaiser matias]

The cap ceiling is adjusted daily. I think it’s actually too complicated right now as it is. It should be that the team on the ice during game day should be cap compliant.

None of this “percentage of their contract” shit. The players on the ice is the cap hit. If it’s a team like Buffalo where they lost their biggest cap hit, then traded their third biggest, then add the people sitting in the press box (so basically on ice team + scratched/non-LTIR injured).

Besides people only complain about good teams using the cap space. Nobody is gonna complain about shitty teams using the “loophole”.

There was a lot of complaints when the Coyotes acquired their hall of fame roster of Pronger, Datsyuk, and Hossa, knowing none of them were ever going to play.

 

[Leafs87]

I think this does have to be addressed before it gets even further out of hand, if TB wins the cup again this year it won't take long before the other teams that make big $ will start using this loophole to grab even more players.
Could you imagine if Toronto was like JT is hurt, lets spend 10 extra million dollars? Riots I tell ya LOL

I don’t even know if the leafs make the playoffs without Tavares. I guess subbing in his replacements maybe but it was ugly watching them without him

 

[mouser]

I'll start off by saying this is not another cap circumvention thread. I'm not trying to drag the Lightning, Hawks, or any team other team for how they've maneuvered the cap.

However, it seems abundantly clear that there's no real danger in the current iteration of the league of being cap compliant. Whether its teams putting players on LTIR for unquestionable or questionable reasons, having injury timelines line up right with the start of the playoffs, teams trading away a player they could manage to trade away, giving up picks/prospects to take a contract, players taking discounts right when a team needs it, teams buying out a player when they need the cap space, we've seen so many teams, such as the Lightning, Hawks, Leafs, Islanders, Knights skirt the cap very closely when many people thought they wouldn't be able to come in below the cap ceiling.

If there's no real danger of being above the cap, why should teams not attempt to spend at least to the limit? And when the occasional circumstance comes up that you need to budget above it to keep certain players, recent history tells us that you are going to find some solution to become cap compliant.

Does the league need to address this? Because right now teams are not scared off by the cap ceiling. Tightening up on some of these loopholes that teams use might be needed. Otherwise, the cap ceiling is just an abstract idea that isn't relevant towards roster construction. Teams know they can always afford to keep all the main players they want to. There's no real incentive to believe a core player or even a main secondary player won't fit within the cap of a team.

(A) You didn't articulate a precise problem with the current system you're trying to solve.

(B) This season was unique, there won't be a taxi squad next season. Making it much more difficult to run short rosters and push cap boundaries going forward like we saw this year.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Teams already are testing the limit. 1/3 of teams finished the season with no cap space. 2/3 had <1 AAV in space.

 

[MarkusKetterer]

There was a lot of complaints when the Coyotes acquired their hall of fame roster of Pronger, Datsyuk, and Hossa, knowing none of them were ever going to play.

And I have no problem with them doing so, or any team doing that, if they don’t LTIR the players.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

More players on ltir is more salaries so the NHLPA is happy and doesn't care to change it. Honestly the NHLPA probably loves 96m payroll teams....more jobs

The system seems to benefit all parties...why would it be changed? Only party that seems to be mad is fans lmao.

Agree the NHLPA doesn't mind thr LTIR because their constituents get paid the contract amounts (so those players are happy) while the owners don't mind because the escrow results in this situation in a reallocation of salary between players which is capped at 50% of HRR.

I will say that LTIR isn't a magic bullet because teams still need to be cap compliant before the season starts, so those LTIR contracts are a significant detriment for teams.

 

[TGWL]

The cap ceiling was never designed to scare teams off. The max was cap ceiling was designed for the richer teams to still spend, while the money crunching teams had a minimum.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

(A) You didn't articulate a precise problem with the current system you're trying to solve.

(B) This season was unique, there won't be a taxi squad next season. Making it much more difficult to run short rosters and push cap boundaries going forward like we saw this year.

A. There’s supposed to be a ceiling so clubs don’t spend as much as they want. But that’s what they are doing. There’s no penalty in the current system for having too expensive of a team, to an extent, unless you budget like 20-30M over. Even that may have ways to work around, as Tampa is showing. Or if there is a penalty, it’s a penalty teams are willing to accept. It’s not causing any team to have to get rid of any of their main players. There’s always a solution to over-budgeting that cap ceiling. The cap ceiling doesn’t have the desired effect. Either it needs to be gone or changed to scare teams. Currently, it’s not a good enforcement mechanism.

B. I mentioned the Hawks. I think it’s clear I was talking about more than only this season.