In a playoff series: Forsberg/Sakic or Crosby/Malkin

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Someone's out to lunch, no offense.

The 2 best players are on the same team, it's not a hard choice.

 

[authentic]

The 2 best players are on the same team, it's not a hard choice.

You said it's not close, I suspect you never watched Sakic and Forsberg in their prime anyway which would totally explain it even though the stats suggest otherwise. I also wouldn't consider Malkin a better player than Forsberg, they are equal at best with a slight edge to Forsberg IMO. Crosby is the best though, but in the playoffs I still wouldn't take him over Forsberg if I was forced to choose between them.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

You said it's not close, I suspect you never watched Sakic and Forsberg in their prime anyway which would totally explain it even though the stats suggest otherwise. I also wouldn't consider Malkin a better player than Forsberg, they are equal at best with a slight edge to Forsberg IMO. Crosby is the best though, but in the playoffs I still wouldn't take him over Forsberg if I was forced to choose between them.

Crosby is the clear best player. Malkin and Forsberg are close. Sakic is the worst.

 

[Plural]

Crosby is the clear best player. Malkin and Forsberg are close. Sakic is the worst.

This is an interesting take. I'd wager almost no-one agrees with this.

 

[Son Goku]

This is an interesting take. I'd wager almost no-one agrees with this.

I'd agree

 

[Syrinx]

I said leave the trophies out. They are mostly about what sort of successful games you could string together for different reasons + health + team mates health + luck etc.

Now take a look at this:
Forsberg: 151 games, 64 goals, 107 assists, 171 points, 1.13 ppg Ranks: 9th all time
Crosby: 148 games, 57 goals, 107 assists, 164 points, 1.108 ppg Ranks: 12th all time
Sakic: 172 games, 84 goals, 104 assists, 188 points, 1.093 ppg Ranks: 14th all time
Malkin: 149 games, 58 goals, 99 assists, 157 points, 1.054 ppg Ranks: 20th all time

Obviously anyone saying Pens AINEC is out to lunch...

Pens AINEC.

Both are better players with better playoff resumes.

 

[Syrinx]

This is an interesting take. I'd wager almost no-one agrees with this.

I'd agree. And Joe Sakic is one of my favorite players ever.

 

[stepdad gaary]

since malkin and crosby just went back to back, there are really only a handful of duos in history who are in the same category as them and Forsberg and Sakic are not one of those duos

I said leave the trophies out. They are mostly about what sort of successful games you could string together for different reasons + health + team mates health + luck etc.

Now take a look at this:
Forsberg: 151 games, 64 goals, 107 assists, 171 points, 1.13 ppg Ranks: 9th all time
Crosby: 148 games, 57 goals, 107 assists, 164 points, 1.108 ppg Ranks: 12th all time
Sakic: 172 games, 84 goals, 104 assists, 188 points, 1.093 ppg Ranks: 14th all time
Malkin: 149 games, 58 goals, 99 assists, 157 points, 1.054 ppg Ranks: 20th all time

Obviously anyone saying Pens AINEC is out to lunch...

why would you do that? If trophies show what kind games you could string together then that would be an ideal qualifier to look at when determining who would be better in a playoff series. You know, where you have to string some games together to win.....

 

[Syrinx]

since malkin and crosby just went back to back, there are really only a handful of duos in history who are in the same category as them and Forsberg and Sakic are not one of those duos





why would you do that? If trophies show what kind games you could string together then that would be an ideal qualifier to look at when determining who would be better in a playoff series. You know, where you have to string some games together to win.....

He wants to leave trophies out because if you stack up Crosby/Malkin's trophies against Forsberg/Sakic's trophies, removing matches from each side, it looks like this:

Crosby/Malkin
3 Ted Lindsay Award (that is 3 more than Sakic/Forsberg)
3 Art Ross Trophy
2 Maurice "Rocket" Richard Trophy
2 Conn Smythe Trophy
Hart Memorial Trophy

Sakic/Forsberg
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy



I'm not sure why we're having this conversation. I do understand why the OP wants to ignore trophies.



Here are complete trophy cases for each:

Joe Sakic

Awards
Year League Award
1995-96 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
2000-01 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2000-01 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
2000-01 NHL Bud Light Plus-Minus Award
2000-01 NHL Lester B. Pearson Trophy

Peter Forsberg

Awards
Year League Award
1994-95 NHL Calder Memorial Trophy
2002-03 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2002-03 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy

Evgeni Malkin

Awards
Year League Award
2006-07 NHL Calder Memorial Trophy
2008-09 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2008-09 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
2011-12 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2011-12 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2011-12 NHL Ted Lindsay Award

Sidney Crosby

Awards
Year League Award
2006-07 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2006-07 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2006-07 NHL Lester B. Pearson Trophy
2009-10 NHL Maurice "Rocket" Richard Trophy
2009-10 NHL Mark Messier NHL Leadership Award
2012-13 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
2013-14 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2013-14 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2013-14 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
2015-16 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
2016-17 NHL Maurice "Rocket" Richard Trophy
2016-17 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy

 

[Ben White]

He wants to leave trophies out because if you stack up Crosby/Malkin's trophies against Forsberg/Sakic's trophies, removing matches from each side, it looks like this:

Crosby/Malkin
3 Ted Lindsay Award (that is 3 more than Sakic/Forsberg)
3 Art Ross Trophy
2 Maurice "Rocket" Richard Trophy
2 Conn Smythe Trophy
Hart Memorial Trophy

Sakic/Forsberg
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy



I'm not sure why we're having this conversation. I do understand why the OP wants to ignore trophies.



Here are complete trophy cases for each:

Joe Sakic

Awards
Year League Award
1995-96 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
2000-01 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2000-01 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
2000-01 NHL Bud Light Plus-Minus Award
2000-01 NHL Lester B. Pearson Trophy

Peter Forsberg

Awards
Year League Award
1994-95 NHL Calder Memorial Trophy
2002-03 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2002-03 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy

Evgeni Malkin

Awards
Year League Award
2006-07 NHL Calder Memorial Trophy
2008-09 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2008-09 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
2011-12 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2011-12 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2011-12 NHL Ted Lindsay Award

Sidney Crosby

Awards
Year League Award
2006-07 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2006-07 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2006-07 NHL Lester B. Pearson Trophy
2009-10 NHL Maurice "Rocket" Richard Trophy
2009-10 NHL Mark Messier NHL Leadership Award
2012-13 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
2013-14 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2013-14 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2013-14 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
2015-16 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
2016-17 NHL Maurice "Rocket" Richard Trophy
2016-17 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy

Why did you ignore the bud light +\- award for Peter in 2003 ?

Well, Trophies doesn't tell nearly as much about how the players performed overall in the playoffs (and especially not reg season awards lol) as stats do. Is that really so hard to understand? The media wants to pump Sids legacy and I can understand that, but in my book his two recent playoff runs wasn't as impressive as Forsberg's in 1999 and 2002 nor Sakic' in 1996.

 

[Syrinx]

Why did you ignore the bud light +\- award for Peter in 2003 ?

Well, Trophies doesn't tell nearly as much about how the players performed overall in the playoffs (and especially not reg season awards lol) as stats do. Is that really so hard to understand? The media wants to pump Sids legacy and I can understand that, but in my book his two recent playoff runs wasn't as impressive as Forsberg's in 1999 and 2002 nor Sakic' in 1996.

After this I'm done because you're ridiculous with your love of Peter Forsberg. He's a great player but he's not on the level you put him.

_________________________________________

Actually trophies do tell how a player performed in the playoffs. The big one is, in the end, what they all play for.

Crosby/Malkin, three times so far, did what was necessary to win the big prize at the end.

Sakic/Forsberg only got it done twice. Even with the greatest playoff goaltender of all time in net, they only got it done twice. Maybe if they'd played better defense and sacrificed some of those stats you're pumping now, they'd have won another one.

3-2 Crosby/Malkin over Sakic/Forsberg in what matters the most. And Crosby/Malkin aren't done yet.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Would've been a close poll in 2015. Crosby/Malkin now up to 3 cups/3 conn smythes and counting, still only 30 and 31 years old. 90s/2000s Avs were also able stack their team with no salary cap, so Sakic/Forsberg had more support both on the wings and their defense. Crosby/Malkin are better individual players.

 

[Son Goku]

He wants to leave trophies out because if you stack up Crosby/Malkin's trophies against Forsberg/Sakic's trophies, removing matches from each side, it looks like this:

Crosby/Malkin
3 Ted Lindsay Award (that is 3 more than Sakic/Forsberg)
3 Art Ross Trophy
2 Maurice "Rocket" Richard Trophy
2 Conn Smythe Trophy
Hart Memorial Trophy

Sakic/Forsberg
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy



I'm not sure why we're having this conversation. I do understand why the OP wants to ignore trophies.



Here are complete trophy cases for each:

Joe Sakic

Awards
Year League Award
1995-96 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
2000-01 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2000-01 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
2000-01 NHL Bud Light Plus-Minus Award
2000-01 NHL Lester B. Pearson Trophy

Peter Forsberg

Awards
Year League Award
1994-95 NHL Calder Memorial Trophy
2002-03 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2002-03 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy

Evgeni Malkin

Awards
Year League Award
2006-07 NHL Calder Memorial Trophy
2008-09 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2008-09 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
2011-12 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2011-12 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2011-12 NHL Ted Lindsay Award

Sidney Crosby

Awards
Year League Award
2006-07 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2006-07 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2006-07 NHL Lester B. Pearson Trophy
2009-10 NHL Maurice "Rocket" Richard Trophy
2009-10 NHL Mark Messier NHL Leadership Award
2012-13 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
2013-14 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2013-14 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2013-14 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
2015-16 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
2016-17 NHL Maurice "Rocket" Richard Trophy
2016-17 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy

Sid's trophy case is ridiculous imagine if those concussions never occurred. Kind of like imagining if Forsberg was fully healthy.

 

[psycat]

This is an interesting take. I'd wager almost no-one agrees with this.

Id agree.

 

[Mighty Makar]

I'm going with Sid and Geno, but it's close.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby just won back to back playoff Mvps. And Malkin has been the playoffs top scorer twice while winning the cup.

Sid and geno not close....

 

[Canucks1096]

People need to stop just looking at the names and determine which duo is better. Do a little bit research and analysis a little. Bigger name doesn't always equal better player.

Playoffs ppg

Forsberg 151 GP 64 G 107 A 171 P 1.132 ppg
Crosby 148 GP 57 G 107 A 164 P 1.108 ppg
Sakic 172 GP 84 G 104 A 188 P 1.093 ppg
Malkin 149 GP 58 G 99 A 157 P 1.054 ppg

Forsberg ppg was up to age 34 and Sakic up to age 38. I think it's safe to assume Crosby and Malkin ppg will decrease once they get older a little.

Also Sakic and Forsberg are more clutch. Sakic 19 GWG and 8 in ot and Forsberg 14 GW and 3 in ot. Crosby 9 GW and 1 in ot and Malkin 10 GW and 1 in ot.

Defensively Sakic and Forsberg are better as well. Both have been Selke finalist. You can argue thst Crosby maybe are equal to Forsberg defensively. Most will agree Sakic is better defensively than Malkin.

Grit. Forsberg is gritter than everyone.

Everyone had 3 really strong playoffs

Crosby 31 27 27 points
Malkin 36 28 22 points
Sakic 34 26 25 points
Forsberg 27 25 21 points

Yes Crosby does have his 19 points and -2 Con Smythe and malkin and Crosby have 2 more smythes. You can argue and say Sakic and Forsberg have at least few better playoffs. Both Forsberg and Sakic led the playoffs is twice. Malkin twice as well and Crosby 0.

Sakic Forsberg are better but it's close.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

This is an interesting take. I'd wager almost no-one agrees with this.

Seems like plenty are agreeing

 

[authentic]

People need to stop just looking at the names and determine which duo is better. Do a little bit research and analysis a little. Bigger name doesn't always equal better player.

Playoffs ppg

Forsberg 151 GP 64 G 107 A 171 P 1.132 ppg
Crosby 148 GP 57 G 107 A 164 P 1.108 ppg
Sakic 172 GP 84 G 104 A 188 P 1.093 ppg
Malkin 149 GP 58 G 99 A 157 P 1.054 ppg

Forsberg ppg was up to age 34 and Sakic up to age 38. I think it's safe to assume Crosby and Malkin ppg will decrease once they get older a little.

Also Sakic and Forsberg are more clutch. Sakic 19 GWG and 8 in ot and Forsberg 14 GW and 3 in ot. Crosby 9 GW and 1 in ot and Malkin 10 GW and 1 in ot.

Defensively Sakic and Forsberg are better as well. Both have been Selke finalist. You can argue thst Crosby maybe are equal to Forsberg defensively. Most will agree Sakic is better defensively than Malkin.

Grit. Forsberg is gritter than everyone.

Everyone had 3 really strong playoffs

Crosby 31 27 27 points
Malkin 36 28 22 points
Sakic 34 26 25 points
Forsberg 27 25 21 points

Yes Crosby does have his 19 points and -2 Con Smythe and malkin and Crosby have 2 more smythes. You can argue and say Sakic and Forsberg have at least few better playoffs. Both Forsberg and Sakic led the playoffs is twice. Malkin twice as well and Crosby 0.

Sakic Forsberg are better but it's close.

Why have a meaningful discussion with in depth analysis when you can just post regular season trophies and call it a night?

 

[Canucks1096]

Why have a meaningful discussion with in depth analysis when you can just post regular season trophies and call it a night?

We could do that but we won't be answering the user question

 

[Canucks1096]

from you:

Forsberg: 151 games, 64 goals, 107 assists, 171 points, 1.13 ppg Ranks: 9th all time
Crosby: 148 games, 57 goals, 107 assists, 164 points, 1.108 ppg Ranks: 12th all time
Sakic: 172 games, 84 goals, 104 assists, 188 points, 1.093 ppg Ranks: 14th all time
Malkin: 149 games, 58 goals, 99 assists, 157 points, 1.054 ppg Ranks: 20th all time

as much as i hate to admit it, malkin can easily get 31 points in 23 games
and heck crosby could pull off 7 points in 3 games

Malkin had over 31 points once. Yes Crosby can pull off 7 points in 3 games but also he can go scoreless like the Bos series and have 3 points in the Det series in 09 and 3 points vs Rangers in 2014

 

[Canucks1096]

He wants to leave trophies out because if you stack up Crosby/Malkin's trophies against Forsberg/Sakic's trophies, removing matches from each side, it looks like this:

Crosby/Malkin
3 Ted Lindsay Award (that is 3 more than Sakic/Forsberg)
3 Art Ross Trophy
2 Maurice "Rocket" Richard Trophy
2 Conn Smythe Trophy
Hart Memorial Trophy

Sakic/Forsberg
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy



I'm not sure why we're having this conversation. I do understand why the OP wants to ignore trophies.



Here are complete trophy cases for each:

Joe Sakic

Awards
Year League Award
1995-96 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
2000-01 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2000-01 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
2000-01 NHL Bud Light Plus-Minus Award
2000-01 NHL Lester B. Pearson Trophy

Peter Forsberg

Awards
Year League Award
1994-95 NHL Calder Memorial Trophy
2002-03 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2002-03 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy

Evgeni Malkin

Awards
Year League Award
2006-07 NHL Calder Memorial Trophy
2008-09 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2008-09 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
2011-12 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2011-12 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2011-12 NHL Ted Lindsay Award

Sidney Crosby

Awards
Year League Award
2006-07 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2006-07 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2006-07 NHL Lester B. Pearson Trophy
2009-10 NHL Maurice "Rocket" Richard Trophy
2009-10 NHL Mark Messier NHL Leadership Award
2012-13 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
2013-14 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2013-14 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2013-14 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
2015-16 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
2016-17 NHL Maurice "Rocket" Richard Trophy
2016-17 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy

He wants ignore trophies because we are just talking about which duo is better in a 7 game playoff series. More trophies doesn't mean better player in a playoff series. Example Claude Lemieux is a better playoff performer than Ovechkin

 

[Canucks1096]

The 2 best players are on the same team, it's not a hard choice.

But you value goals a lot more. Both Sakic and Forsberg have more goals/better gpg than Crosby/Malkin in the playoffs

 

[authentic]

He wants ignore trophies because we are just talking about which duo is better in a 7 game playoff series. More trophies doesn't mean better player in a playoff series. Example Claude Lemieux is a better playoff performer than Ovechkin

I was with you in your last post but I disagree with you there. He elevated his game very much from the regular season, but Ovechkin was amazing in the playoffs a lot of years but his team didn't go anywhere. In 2009 he had 21 points in 14 games, that's amazing and accounting for eras better than any performance Claude had individually, it's not really Ovechkin's fault his team didn't advance.

 

[Canucks1096]

I was with you in your last post but I disagree with you there. He elevated his game very much from the regular season, but Ovechkin was amazing in the playoffs a lot of years but his team didn't go anywhere. In 2009 he had 21 points in 14 games, that's amazing and accounting for eras better than any performance Claude had individually, it's not really Ovechkin's fault his team didn't advance.

I agree Ovechkin was amazing in some playoff years but Claude Lemieux had a playoff of 17 GP 13 goals 10 A 23 points. That season was 07. In terms of scoring thst year the league average 2.92 and 09 it average 2.84. So in term of how hard it is to score. Both were around the same. Also Claude Lemieux that year had 4 GWG and Ovechkin has 1


Ovechkin does put up some points in the playoffs but I will give him some blame because of his game 7 record. Ovechkin only has around 6 points in 9 games 7s. If he was able to show up more caps could of went further.

Claude Lemieux is way more clutch. He had 19 career gwg in the playoffs. 3rd best all time. In an important game i rather have Claude Lemieux.

Ovechkin does have better ppg but he doesn't produce much in important games like Lemieux