Improving German (Junior) Hockey

Discussion in 'Germany' started by jnk96, Apr 17, 2017.

  1. REMINDER: Political Discussion is NOT PERMITTED
    Dismiss Notice
  1. Gianpaolo Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2006
    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    33
    Trophy Points:
    81
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Leon Draisaitl talked about: "Young players in Germany do not get any chances to play. Look at Sweden or Finland: just right their prospects have learned to play hockey a little bit, they are getting ice time in a senior league.
     
  2. wings5 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2008
    Messages:
    6,609
    Likes Received:
    485
    Trophy Points:
    124
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    This I believe is the biggest issue along with the amount of foreign players. Even reducing the amount of foreign players from 10-5 would open a ton more spots for German players. Plus having a number of mandatory spots for young players.
     
  3. PenDuhNotPittsburgh Registered User

    Joined:
    May 13, 2017
    Messages:
    220
    Likes Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    26
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Krefeld
    What do you guys think about the RB academy? It's kinda two sided cause players get to play against better competition and train under high end conditions. But they are also taking all the best talent from the smaller clubs without finanical compensation or something. That migth have negative effects over time.
     
  4. Albatros Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2017
    Messages:
    5,723
    Likes Received:
    2,372
    Trophy Points:
    130
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    Ostsee
    I think what Leon in part means is also that youth players get more responsibility in Northern Europe, not just ice time but get to play on scoring lines and use their creativity which in turn helps them develop further and faster.
     
  5. Maverick41 HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,873
    Likes Received:
    882
    Trophy Points:
    185
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    I don't expect it to have too much of a negative impact. It is just one more big team that poaches talents from other clubs. They are not the only ones and the fact that some of our biggest talents get a chance to use state of the art training facilities can be a good thing for those players, though it does not mean that any prospect going to Salzburg will suddenly improve dramatically.
    No team is really making lots of money by developing propects and then "selling" them for large transfer fees. So the financial loss is not all that significant, and if a player turns out really good "lesser" teams will always lose them to the financially more potent teams.

    In soccer I am not a big fan of investors, because there already is more than enough money in the sport/business, but in hockey I am a lot more open to people investing money into the sport.
    Overall I am cautiously optimistic that the latest efforts that were started when Reindl became DEB president could really have a sustained positive impact on hockey in Germany, but in the end it will always come down to the money and unfortuantely there still isn't a lot of that in German hockey.
     
    KTl likes this.
  6. Maverick41 HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,873
    Likes Received:
    882
    Trophy Points:
    185
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    I wonder if we will ever see another group like the "95ers".

    Just for fun I have made a roster (12 Forwards, 8 Defensemen, 3 Goalies) only with players born in 1995.
    Goaltending is pretty good:
    Kevin Reich, Hannibal Weitzmann, Ilya Sharipov

    Defense is pretty bad (as usual):
    Jonas Müller, Fabio Wagner, Tim Bender, Janik Möser, Mike Schmitz, Andreas Schwarz, Simon Mayr, Denis Shevyrin

    Forwards are really good and surprisingly deep (minus 2 or 3 guys):
    Leon Draisaitl, Dominik Kahun, Markus Eisenschmid, Freddie Tiffels, Marc Michaelis, Nico Sturm, Fabio Pfohl, Parker Tuomie, Vladislav Filin, Marco Sedlar, Marc Schmidpeter

    I think I might keep doing this after each season (so next year for the 96ers) just for comparison and I think by 23/24 years of age you can judge the quality of the players.
     
    smitty10 likes this.
  7. kalle wirsch Registered User

    Joined:
    May 29, 2015
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    81
    Trophy Points:
    51
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    DEB: 7% more hockeyplayers in Germany over the last two years
    U12 6.334 to 7.264
    Boys:5.735 to 6.516 14%
    Girls:599 to748 25%
     
    canucklax, Halfdan and Maverick41 like this.
  8. Maverick41 HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,873
    Likes Received:
    882
    Trophy Points:
    185
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    Thanks for the numbers.
    I had read that they saw a surge in kids signing up for hockey after the silver medal at the Olympics, but I had no numbers.
     
  9. byteloser Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    1
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    I've never posted in this forum, but this thread caught my attention. My family and I have lived in Canada for almost 15 years. Last summer we went back to Germany to visit family and we took the opportunity for my son (16 at the time) to try out for some DNL 1 teams. He got a spot in Dusseldorf and will move to Germany after his graduation in June 2020.

    My son plays for our local Midget Rep T3 team, which is just a minor hockey team that plays in a competitive league. He never tried out for any above minor teams such as Minor or Major Midget, Junior A or B.

    I'd like to share some of my experiences (even though I don't know how much they translate to Germany).

    1. We were surprised how easy and inexpensive it was for my son to try out for the teams. All teams told us to just come to their practices for a week. We didn't have to pay a dime for the week (other than hotel & food). In Canada, trying out for teams involves try out fees and multiple try out camps. You can easily spend $5K (in fees only) in the summer to try out for a couple of teams.

    2. It appears to me that the 3 top teams (Mannheim, Cologne & Berlin) are siphoning the top players (e. g. by offering development contracts with their pro-teams). The gap between the top 3 to the rest of the DNL is quite noticeable and in my opinion, is not ideal. Teams need to be competitive in order for players to improve.

    3. I don't see the Olympic ice size necessarily as a problem. Yes, players need to make decisions faster, but it comes with the cost of injuries (mainly concussions) which turns off parents and players from playing competitive hockey. We have a German exchange student(he played DNL 2 last season) as an affiliated player on our roster and in his first game, the poor kid didn't know what was happening to him (Canadian players always finish their checks). Small-area games are a good tool to practice skills and decisions making. For the youngest age groups (< 8), Hockey Canada introduced the half-ice games. All games are played on half-ice, resulting in more puck time for all players (not only the few that already know how to skate).

    4. Academies, Zone-Teams, ... are killing minor hockey in Canada. Smaller associations are losing so many players, that at times they struggle to put together teams and therefore reduces the overall skill level in minor hockey rep divisions. I think it may create similar problems if they start such programs in Germany / Europe, especially when those academies are run as a business (profit-based rather then skills-based).

    5. Hockey is expensive. It is expensive to run a hockey club/association and it is expensive for players to play. Teams need sponsors and fans, and this comes with exposure on TV. The streets in Canada are empty, the bars are full when team Canada is playing in the U-20 IIHF World Juniors. Unfortunately, Hockey in Germany doesn't have the same impact even though the sport is way more interesting and fun to watch compared to soccer. I hope the German National team will continue to play for medals and may attract new fans and players.

    6. The DEL & DEL 2 needs to give young players opportunities to play instead of using foreign players, which I understand is difficult. Coaches are trying to keep their job and therefore need players that can play. During our tryouts we were told, the average DNL team creates less than 1 DEL/DEL 2 player per season. That's not necessarily giving the young players a lot of hope.

    We are excited for next year and it will be interesting to see how my kid makes out in Germany.

    Cheers,
    Byteloser
     
  10. Chapin Landvogt Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2002
    Messages:
    16,750
    Likes Received:
    2,570
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Occupation:
    Translator
    Location:
    Germany
    Home Page:
    Thanks for sharing.

    One thing that has long stuck out in Germany is that players from North America or Scandinavia or Eastern Europe who are eligible for a German player pass are always very welcome - and sought after.

    In general, teams are always looking for talent and the idea of having players "pay" to tryout is pretty foreign. The ice times are already subsidized in most cases by local sports federation funding and teams are allotted a certain amount of ice times to plan as they see fit.

    In other words, even DNL teams will be very happy to have interested kids come tryout. I have seen that there have been times when they'll tell a kid after just a few drills that he can hit the showers, but in general, the need for finding capable players and perhaps even enhancements for the team is so difficult that the clubs are very open to giving guys a look.

    Those three clubs have the top junior programs in the country and also offer the most opportunity, on and off the ice. In addition, they're able to run a workout, nutrition, and practice program that often looks light years different than even a few clubs playing in the very same league.

    Otherwise, the Powerplay26 program is geared towards filtering out the best talent in the country to roughly 6-8 programs by the time the boys are 14 or so. The funding provided to teams, and indeed the leagues those teams are allowed to play in, are based on a star program and gaining these stars requires the clubs to meet often unobtainable goals with respect to the amount of coaches they hire, have on the ice, teams in the program, ice times per week, etc. This system virtually ensures that players with talent from smaller venues have to seek out greener pastures at an early stage, which in turn also prevents smaller clubs from gaining any ground.

    But the DEB knows this and also knows that the biggest programs are geared towards developing the players in a manner they desire so as to create more viable candidates for the national teams.

    And despite the current talent coming through (just look at how there may be 3 Germans going top 45 in the next draft), we haven't yet seen the real effects of the Powerplay26 program as it's still just gotten past its infancy.

    It would have been REAL interesting to see, for example, Germany's team at the U18 worlds this spring. That may have been really telling after so many years in a lower division.

    As a semi-pro many years ago, I didn't pay anything. Equipment was provided and I received 6 sticks (predetermined by the team) per season.

    Then later playing for fun, I was dishing out roughly 390-460 EUR as my yearly fee. Naturally, equipment and travel, etc. were also private costs, but what is being paid to play is an INCREDIBLY different thing from some of the prices we see in North America.

    I can say that the kids playing for the most competitive program around these parts are now paying 520 EUR per year + travel, etc. But they play 30+ games a year and practice 3 times a week plus a dry land session.

    Rest assured, this has long been a topic and to be honest, we're already seeing many more young German impact players in the DEL - and beyond. The number of U23 players dotting the line-ups of teams in the Oberliga and DEL2 has grown significantly in recent years.

    And the comment made by DDorf's coaching staff is, I believe, strictly in reference to the DEL, where you'll rarely see an 18-year old coming fresh out of the DNL. But the DEL2 has a whole bunch of U21 players who have, at some point, come out of the DNL. In addition, a couple of the teams have such strong youth programs that they're introducing kids 17-22 to their own pro team every year (think Kaufbeuren, Rosenheim, Landshut, etc.)

    Indeed! Keep us updated.

    The DNL is a good address for any kid who has pro ambitions within Germany. There are nice opportunities as of the Oberliga and a player can have a VERY good pro life in the DEL at some point.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. TheWhiskeyThief Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,532
    Likes Received:
    445
    Trophy Points:
    69
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Always be coaching up the coaches. The YouTube generation can learn certain skills & drills easier than ever online, but integrating those drills & team concepts is something your coach needs to do.

    Get as many kids to try out skating as possible, and keep them skating.
     
  12. Maverick41 HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,873
    Likes Received:
    882
    Trophy Points:
    185
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    After last season I made a team with just players born in 1995. Now I took a look at 1996 and thought I'd post both teams side by side.
    Nothing will come close to the 1995 team, but I was actually surprised how good that 1996 team looks. There are some really decent players in there, especially with the emergence of guys like Lautenschlager and Pfaffengut in the DEL this past season.

    Pos19951996
    GKKevin ReichDaniel Fießinger
    GKHannibal WeitzmannMaximilian Franzreb
    GKIlya SharipovFlorian Proske
    DJonas MüllerJohn Rogl
    DFabio WagnerKai Wissmann
    DTim BenderDavid Trinkberger
    DJanik MöserEmil Quaas
    DMike SchmitzHagen Kaisler
    DAndreas SchwarzPatrick Kurz
    DDenis ShevyrinMarius Erk
    DSimon MayrOle Ollef
    FLeon DraisaitlStefan Loibl
    FDominik KahunManuel Wiederer
    FMarkus EisenschmidAndreas Eder
    FNico SturmMaximilian Kammerer
    FMarc MichaelisLeon Niederberger
    FFrederik TiffelsJulian Lautenschlager
    FParker TuomieDaniel Pfaffengut
    FFabio PfohlStefan Reiter
    FVladislav FilinLukas Koziol
    FMarco SedlarNico Kolb
    FMarc SchmidpeterManuel Edfelder
    FKevin OrendorzFabian Voit
     
    Chapin Landvogt likes this.
  13. Chapin Landvogt Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2002
    Messages:
    16,750
    Likes Received:
    2,570
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Occupation:
    Translator
    Location:
    Germany
    Home Page:
    Great stuff!

    Already excited to see the rest of the 90s!
     
  14. Maverick41 HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,873
    Likes Received:
    882
    Trophy Points:
    185
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    I have lists like this all the way through to the 2004 birth year (although 2003 and 2004 are merely lists of players to keep an eye on). I update them after every season, but to make the lists more comparable I will only post them after each group had the same time to develop.
    What is really fun for me about this is to see how my own perception of certain birth years changes or not.

    Here are some examples of my thoughts after updating the lists:

    1997:
    Last year: Looks like a weak year
    This year: Still not looking good

    1998:
    Last year: Not as strong as I thought it would be a few years ago. Defense is really weak
    This year: Defense is much improved and the overall depth has developed nicely. Still a lot of potential.

    1999:
    Last year: Doesn't look as bad as I thought it was, but still a really weak year except for Gawanke.
    This year: Vastly improved overall (except for goaltending which still sucks). Still not as good as 1998 but the gap has closed a little.

    2000:
    Last year: Always thought this should be a good year and this group seems to meet my expectations.
    This year: No major change except the depth has gotten even better, especially at forward. Defense still a bit of a weak spot, but that is true for pretty much every year.

    2001:
    Last year: Weak year overall, but Seider!!!
    This year: Seider alone makes this defensive group better than any other year I have looked at, but there are also some others doing well. And there is a slight improvment in the forward group. Still a huge gap to the 2000 group, though.

    2002:
    Last year: OMG, this group will be amazing, especially at forward and may even challenge 1995 (I don't really think so, but I want to believe it)
    This year: The depth got even better at every position and Stützle, Peterka and Reichel have taken things to a new level. This will be fun to follow and they could actually surpass the 1995 group, despite Draisaitl's best efforts to make that impossible by himself.
     
    Halfdan, S E P H and Chapin Landvogt like this.
  15. ALF AmericanLionsFan Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2002
    Messages:
    7,638
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    141
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Occupation:
    teacher
    Location:
    Cleveland, Ohio USA
    Home Page:
    Please keep us updated
     
  16. canucklax Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    421
    Likes Received:
    364
    Trophy Points:
    49
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    What is the Powerplay 26 program? I've seen it mentioned a couple times when looking up German hockey but cant seem to find out exactly what it is or how long it has been around.
     
  17. Maverick41 HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,873
    Likes Received:
    882
    Trophy Points:
    185
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    If you can read German you can find a summary in bulletpoints here:
    https://www.deb-online.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/POWERPLAY26-wesentliche-Elemente.pdf

    I think it started in 2014 or 2015 or something and one of the main goals was to bring more structure into the development of young talent (both players and coaches) as well as into German hockey overall.
    In the past and also still today German hockey is plagued by a lot of infighting and politics between the regional federations. They were more working against each other than pulling in the same direction to improve German hockey.

    With the Powerplay 26 project the DEB wanted to concentrate the efforts under one umbrella and implement several changes to the development of young players.
    One thing they wanted to do was to switch the focus from result based coaching (winning is all that matters) to an approach more focused on the development of skills.
    I think they called it "Technk vor Taktik" (technique/skill before tactic).

    I don't have the time to go through it all right now, but maybe this gives you a little more insight.
     
    canucklax likes this.
  18. Chapin Landvogt Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2002
    Messages:
    16,750
    Likes Received:
    2,570
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Occupation:
    Translator
    Location:
    Germany
    Home Page:
    PowerPlay26:
    I'll also add that the program offers financial assistance to clubs based on their ability to earn "stars". These stars are awarded by the DEB and are very difficult to obtain, because they require clubs to have a certain amount of ice times for every respective age group, a certain amount of coaches on the ice at any one time, a certain amount of club members, a certain amount of volunteer workers, a certain amount of total games played every season, all practices documented in writing with drill explanation, etc. Some of the oldest, longest lasting clubs in the country can't get more than 1 or 2 of the 5 stars offered and then aren't permitted to play in certain leagues, even if that league wants the club and there are i.e. enough players to have a team there.

    This then leads to many of the nation's best players being forced to go to other, bigger, more financially well-off clubs, perhaps leaving home to do so, in order to play in the proper leagues and get the proper fostering.

    At the end of the day, the nation's best players basically have no choice but to wind up in one of 6-10 programs nationwide, which are capable of getting those 5 stars and thus, funding these player's ice hockey career correspondingly.

    In other words, it is ensuring that the best of the best here ultimately are found and come together in a variety of the most supported clubs in the country, even if a few go by the wayside. It also prevents clubs from going "rogue" with any level of success, seeing as how they are prevented from certain league play if they don't have this or that many stars. On the negative standpoint, the standards for even 3 stars are usually utopian for your every day club, because they don't have enough coaches, players, and helpers in the general vicinity to possibly live up to what is required, thus getting less funding, which prevents them from maybe bringing in people from the outside, etc. It can be quite a vicious circle.

    Nonetheless, I think the nation's national teams will continue to profit from this set-up as the pool of players created by this plan, and thus the amount of players getting basically the same level of training and instruction from a relatively small pool of coaches, is simply better than in previous times.

    And this is something we're all ready seeing with the Seiders, Stutzles, Reichels, Peterkas, etc. of the world.
     
    canucklax likes this.
  19. canucklax Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    421
    Likes Received:
    364
    Trophy Points:
    49
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    @Maverick41 and @Chapin Landvogt thank you for the replies, I cant read german but it sounds similar to what Sweden and Finland have done in the recent past to boost their player development models. The stars aspect is interesting, I feel bad for the smaller clubs that cant afford what it would take to improve their ranking but it seems like a net positive if the system churns out better youth players and eventually national team players.
     
  20. canucklax Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    421
    Likes Received:
    364
    Trophy Points:
    49
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Really good read about the development of Mannheims youth academy and how it nurtured Draisaitl, Seider and Stuetzle. Even gives a dollar amount of how much they had invested in the three over their development (500,000 euro) and how much it costs per year per player in the academy (40,000 euro). I didnt realise the financial backing they had from ownership so it seems like it would be hard to replicate for other teams but their development model at least is getting copied around the country.

    Inside the program turning Germany into an NHL Draft powerhouse
     
    KahunWOW and Maverick41 like this.
  21. OskarOskarius Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2019
    Messages:
    227
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    26
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    It is certainly a interesting point about foreign players. In the SHL 80 % of the players are Swedish, meanwhile in the DEL only 50 % are German (source quanthockey). Of course in order to play talents you need to have talents to play. This might be where the problem lies. The SHL may have a lot of Swedish players because there are a lot more Swedish players that make the cut. Based on CHL performance the SHL is waaaaay ahead of everyone else, so it’s not just that we let our kids play, we have kids that on a European level are very talented.
     
  22. wetcoast Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2018
    Messages:
    8,150
    Likes Received:
    2,592
    Trophy Points:
    101
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Any updates on your experience.
     
  23. canucklax Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    421
    Likes Received:
    364
    Trophy Points:
    49
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"