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Imagine that the league really is crooked. What would you do?
- Thread starter AreBe
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SmoggyTwinkles
Go Leafs Go
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Did any of the those former members of the Astros' management group that were fired and banned for a year have to go to jail for cheating the rest of the teams and their fans, and the league?
Look at the way George Parros runs the Department of Players Safety...does he ever have to be accountable to anybody for when he does or does not hand out supplemental discipline for indiscretions by players that look similar? Where is the consistency? One day he calls in a player for a hearing, one day he does not, and nobody knows why or why not. It's like he does it when he feels like it or when he has time, or maybe when he's pressured by whoever or whatever. That's just an example.
You don't need everyone to collude together...you only need a handful of people in positions of power to pull the strings on some things because they could get away with it.
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AreBe
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Totally agree and I think I am there. My point is not to give up on hockey, but to instead acknowledge that the NHL favors large American markets, just like plainly the NBA does, but that just like in the NBA where San Antonio, Cleveland, Detroit and Toronto have won because of superior talent or lightning in a bottle, so to can teams not favored by the NHL, the Canadian teams, also win it all.
But you have to build your team with some foresight. You need to consider, when constructing your team, that the American opponents are going to get the timely power-plays and you will not- what do you do? Complaining is not the answer. The answer lies in team construction and tactics. I say you go all skill all the time, but I could be wrong, maybe you need to really, really consider penalty killing, as the NHL is going to make penalties the advantage for the other team. Penalty killing, puck possession on the penalty kill, and even scoring on the penalty kill now become paramount.
I am confident the fix is in, but I am not sure what the Leafs can do about it.
It sure would! That is part of my argument- Some Canadian teams could use an extra few million dollars.A nice big fat US tv deal will benefit the Leafs
Superstar
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A nice big fat US tv deal will benefit the Leafs
If you're talking about the salary cap increasing, it will benefit ALL teams, but the Leafs will still be at the bottom of the league for powerplay opportunities.
SmoggyTwinkles
Go Leafs Go
The Raptors won. They're the current f***ing champs.
The Jays won way back when 2 years in a row. Go on Youtube and watch the old VHS vids of people going crazy up Yonge St.
That's the f***in' dream dude. That's why every canadian based hockey fan hates the rest of canadian teams, we all want to be the team that brings that cup back to Canada, and the NHL will try its best to not let that happen because its not good for business and you are right in that we will just have to build a team that is so f***ing good that they can't stop it.
That's how it is.
therealkoho
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if say the Kings and the Rangers made it to the finals, 2000 a pop would look like a bargain
AreBe
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But that is gate.
Fickle fans.
TV is where it is at, and Canada is not where it is at for TV.
Leafs need to build a team with a view that the fix is in.
All calls against the Leafs in the playoffs will be justifiable.
It's the calls against the opponent that are not made that are at issue.
The answer is 1, superior skill and execution ; and 2, exceptional - scoring- penalty killing.
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Astros stealing signs and a league colluding to fix matches are not equivalent.
And yes, people have gone to jail for fixing matches.
—
If you are alleging that the penalties are called against the Leafs (or not called) on purpose than you need more than a handful of people to be in and stay silent.
There are 44 Refs. Who work in different combinations and assigned to all 31 teams meaning the Leafs get different Refs every night.
Over 40 current linesmen. Who work in different crews.
For this to be beyond a 1 game match fix, you need quite a few to be in on it.
That’s just current folks.
You also need former Refs and Linesmen to shut up about it.
It implausible and I feel silly for even having to state the obvious.
AreBe
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Stopped being shocked to learn that the NHL is very competently run.
Stop being surprised that the NHL wants a fat US TV deal to solve problems and that to get that fat US TV deal the NHL must take steps to lessen rightful concerns of US TV networks that ratings killing Canadian teams will advance.
Accept it to be true and the build the Leafs accordingly, by 1, skill over toughness, 2, knowing that toughness from the Leafs results in a penalty, 3, focus on penalty killing as the NHL is going to put you in the box, and 4, it's penalties not called that are at issue. Build the Leafs so that they can win despite best efforts of the NHL.
Re: the Nation in the National Hockey League is America:
What law is the NHL breaking?
What criminal code violation?
What contract term is breached?
Your myths are excluded in the contract for admission. The NHL knows the buying public has bought into certain myths and is not correcting the misinformation- not illegal.
Read the contract for entering a Leafs game- it's an "Event" and not a game! The NHL offers for to see a given "event" and a given place and time at a given price. You pay your money. The event occurs. You go home. All liability is waived. Any myths you have about the event being on the up and up is on you.
Do you get your money back if the Leafs don't even try? Should that not be an implied term of the contract? No.
So, are you saying that the NBA is smart and the NHL is stupid? Only the NBA can figure out how to have 2 top 10 ten markets in the finals so regularly that the exceptions prove the rule? That the NHL is run by boy scouts? That the NHL uniquely is not seeking to win a huge US TV lottery win?\
HOLDER VOLUNTARILY ASSUMES ALL RISKS AND DANGER OF PERSONAL INJURY and all other hazards related to the event for which ticket is issued (the “Event”), whether occurring prior to, during or after the Event, including, without limitation, danger of injury by hockey pucks, sticks and other equipment, by spectators or players, or by thrown objects. Holder agrees that MLSE, Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment Ltd., the arena, the National Hockey League (“NHL”), the member clubs of the NHL, NHL Enterprises, L.P., the NHLPA and its current and former players, and each of their respective affiliates, parents, subsidiaries, related entities, owners, governors, officers, directors, partners, principals, employees, representatives and agents are expressly released by Holder from any claims arising from or relating directly or indirectly to such causes or otherwise occurring at or in connection with Event. .TERMS AND CONDITIONS RELATING TO TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS MEMBERSHIP PACKAGES – MLSE
You do not need a million people to stay quiet. And you do not need to spray paint instructions on the walls of hotel rooms of where the officials are staying to inform them of what the league wants.
Here is how the NBA does it allegedly:
Donaghy officiated in several playoff games in his NBA career and is of the belief that the league office indirectly trains officials to favour certain teams. He told Blair the league meets with referees before playoff games to explain what they specifically want and do not want called during games.
“What they do is they actually send in a representative from the league office to sit down with the referees at an 11 o’clock meeting in the morning where they go over game film,” Donaghy said. “They will show the referees what they want called, what they want them to concentrate on, what they feel needs to be called or let go in a series to avoid any problems. With that, you would leave the room and say to yourself one team is put at an advantage or disadvantage.
“In this situation, Brooklyn would be put at an advantage. A Brooklyn-Miami matchup would bring great ratings and that’s what this is all about for the NBA and the league offices – bringing in as many dollars as they can.”Donaghy: Raps are up against Nets, and referees - Sportsnet.ca
Consider:
On June 10, 2008, Donaghy's attorney filed a court document alleging, among other things, that Game 6 of the 2002 Western Conference Finals between the Los Angeles Lakers and Sacramento Kings was fixed by two referees. The letter states that Donaghy "learned from Referee A that Referees A and F wanted to extend the series to seven games. Tim knew Referees A and F to be 'company men', always acting in the interest of the NBA, and that night, it was in the NBA's interest to add another game to the series."[37] The Lakers won Game 6, attempting 18 more free throws than the Kings in the fourth quarter, and went on to win the 2002 NBA Finals. The teams were not named, but the Western Conference Finals was the only seven-game series that year.[38] The document claimed that Donaghy told federal agents that to increase television ratings and ticket sales, "top executives of the NBA sought to manipulate games using referees".[37] It also said that NBA officials would tell referees to not call technical fouls on certain players, and states that a referee was privately reprimanded by the league for ejecting a star player in the first quarter of a January 2000 game.[37] Stern denied the accusations, calling Donaghy a "singing, cooperating witness".[38] Federal authorities investigated Donaghy's claims and found no evidence to support them. About this, AUSA Jeffrey Goldberg told the court, "...we’ve never taken the position that Mr. Donaghy has lied to us. But there is a difference between telling the truth and believing you’re telling the truth and finding out later that a number of the allegations don’t hold any water.”[39] Tim Donaghy - Wikipedia
Stop being surprised that the NHL wants a fat US TV deal to solve problems and that to get that fat US TV deal the NHL must take steps to lessen rightful concerns of US TV networks that ratings killing Canadian teams will advance.
Accept it to be true and the build the Leafs accordingly, by 1, skill over toughness, 2, knowing that toughness from the Leafs results in a penalty, 3, focus on penalty killing as the NHL is going to put you in the box, and 4, it's penalties not called that are at issue. Build the Leafs so that they can win despite best efforts of the NHL.
Re: the Nation in the National Hockey League is America:
Textbook Gospel according to Hockey Night In Canada right there!
Textbook use of the Doctrine of NHL infallibility!
What law is the NHL breaking?
What criminal code violation?
What contract term is breached?
Your myths are excluded in the contract for admission. The NHL knows the buying public has bought into certain myths and is not correcting the misinformation- not illegal.
Read the contract for entering a Leafs game- it's an "Event" and not a game! The NHL offers for to see a given "event" and a given place and time at a given price. You pay your money. The event occurs. You go home. All liability is waived. Any myths you have about the event being on the up and up is on you.
Do you get your money back if the Leafs don't even try? Should that not be an implied term of the contract? No.
So, are you saying that the NBA is smart and the NHL is stupid? Only the NBA can figure out how to have 2 top 10 ten markets in the finals so regularly that the exceptions prove the rule? That the NHL is run by boy scouts? That the NHL uniquely is not seeking to win a huge US TV lottery win?\
HOLDER VOLUNTARILY ASSUMES ALL RISKS AND DANGER OF PERSONAL INJURY and all other hazards related to the event for which ticket is issued (the “Event”), whether occurring prior to, during or after the Event, including, without limitation, danger of injury by hockey pucks, sticks and other equipment, by spectators or players, or by thrown objects. Holder agrees that MLSE, Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment Ltd., the arena, the National Hockey League (“NHL”), the member clubs of the NHL, NHL Enterprises, L.P., the NHLPA and its current and former players, and each of their respective affiliates, parents, subsidiaries, related entities, owners, governors, officers, directors, partners, principals, employees, representatives and agents are expressly released by Holder from any claims arising from or relating directly or indirectly to such causes or otherwise occurring at or in connection with Event. .TERMS AND CONDITIONS RELATING TO TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS MEMBERSHIP PACKAGES – MLSE
You do not need a million people to stay quiet. And you do not need to spray paint instructions on the walls of hotel rooms of where the officials are staying to inform them of what the league wants.
Here is how the NBA does it allegedly:
Donaghy officiated in several playoff games in his NBA career and is of the belief that the league office indirectly trains officials to favour certain teams. He told Blair the league meets with referees before playoff games to explain what they specifically want and do not want called during games.
“What they do is they actually send in a representative from the league office to sit down with the referees at an 11 o’clock meeting in the morning where they go over game film,” Donaghy said. “They will show the referees what they want called, what they want them to concentrate on, what they feel needs to be called or let go in a series to avoid any problems. With that, you would leave the room and say to yourself one team is put at an advantage or disadvantage.
“In this situation, Brooklyn would be put at an advantage. A Brooklyn-Miami matchup would bring great ratings and that’s what this is all about for the NBA and the league offices – bringing in as many dollars as they can.”Donaghy: Raps are up against Nets, and referees - Sportsnet.ca
Consider:
On June 10, 2008, Donaghy's attorney filed a court document alleging, among other things, that Game 6 of the 2002 Western Conference Finals between the Los Angeles Lakers and Sacramento Kings was fixed by two referees. The letter states that Donaghy "learned from Referee A that Referees A and F wanted to extend the series to seven games. Tim knew Referees A and F to be 'company men', always acting in the interest of the NBA, and that night, it was in the NBA's interest to add another game to the series."[37] The Lakers won Game 6, attempting 18 more free throws than the Kings in the fourth quarter, and went on to win the 2002 NBA Finals. The teams were not named, but the Western Conference Finals was the only seven-game series that year.[38] The document claimed that Donaghy told federal agents that to increase television ratings and ticket sales, "top executives of the NBA sought to manipulate games using referees".[37] It also said that NBA officials would tell referees to not call technical fouls on certain players, and states that a referee was privately reprimanded by the league for ejecting a star player in the first quarter of a January 2000 game.[37] Stern denied the accusations, calling Donaghy a "singing, cooperating witness".[38] Federal authorities investigated Donaghy's claims and found no evidence to support them. About this, AUSA Jeffrey Goldberg told the court, "...we’ve never taken the position that Mr. Donaghy has lied to us. But there is a difference between telling the truth and believing you’re telling the truth and finding out later that a number of the allegations don’t hold any water.”[39] Tim Donaghy - Wikipedia
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nsleaf
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The Man with a Plan
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AreBe
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Have your lawyer address the differences between the word "game" and "event." Note that for a Leafs NHL game, the contract bewteen the customer and MLSE for Leafs games, the word 'event' is used. (
Schedule A TICKET BACK TERMS "HOLDER VOLUNTARILY ASSUMES ALL RISKS AND DANGER OF PERSONAL INJURY and all other hazards related to the event for which ticket is issued (the “Event”)," TERMS AND CONDITIONS RELATING TO TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS MEMBERSHIP PACKAGES – MLSE)
Note that word choice was considered.
Definition of game (NOTE: This is the myth you think you are buying)
(Entry 1 of 4)
1a(1): a physical or mental competition conducted according to rules with the participants in direct opposition to each other
(2): a division of a larger contest
(3): the manner of playing in a contest
(4): a particular aspect or phase of play in a game or sporta football team's kicking game
(5): the set of rules governing a game
(6): the number of points necessary to win
(7): points scored in certain card games (as in all fours) by a player whose cards count up the highest
Definition of GAME
Definition of event (NOTE: This is in fact what you are buying)
1a: something that happens : OCCURRENCE
b: a noteworthy happening
c: a social occasion or activity
d: an adverse or damaging medical occurrence a heart attack or other cardiac event
Definition of EVENT
For clarity: What I am on about is that we need to accept that the NHL has it in for Canadian teams and then we need to build teams with that knowledge, and stop accepting notions like the Doctrine of NHL Infallibility and the Gospel According to Hockey Night in Canada, even though we were brought up to believe in them. Toughness for Leafs = penalties, and therefore bad- and that is a real world application of what I am on about.
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cannucky
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whack Bettman , give all the refs 2x bonus accounts at canadian casinos so they can bet on the games they are reffing and hire Jeff Gallouis to kneecap oppossing supertstars as they enter our barn . So basically everything stays the same except the whacking Bettman and the Tonya Harding treatment stuff .
AreBe
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Interesting. But will only really help the Leafs.
When you have some kind of institutionalized problem like a league sensibly seeking a large US TV deal and so in turn is forced to find away to reassure US TV networks that they need not fear Canadian teams advancing, you are better off accepting you are not going to get the calls and that the other team is going to run you. What do you do? You have to have exceptional skill, you have to have spectacular penalty killers.
From a tactical point of view, do you run their stars, knowing full well you are getting 5 and a game and possibly a suspensions for the rest of the series in the fist period of the first game? Do you do what the Red Wings did to Moore? I think that would be a mistake and the Leafs would pay a very steep penalty, maybe even loosing draft picks.
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I find it amusing when HNIC and all these Canadian TV networks and broadcasters are jerking off to themselves about the renewed passion that is the Battle of Alberta between the Flames and Oilers...I'm sure US viewers, US TV networks and Gary Bettman are falling head-over-heals about the Battle of Alberta!
When recently asked about potential changes to the playoff format, Bettman mockingly said it's only a concern if you're the Toronto Maple Leafs (ie. having been ousted by the Bruins in the last couple of years)...casual jousting or a slip of the tongue and a revelation into his heart of what he really feels about Canadian teams? He is after all an American AND wants to expand the game in the US...anyone should not be surprised with him favouring US teams when in fact he is looking for the biggest US TV network deal in NHL history, and the only way that gets done is to showcase US teams in the playoffs and making deep runs in the playoffs and winning championships! Bettman's biggest nightmare would be having two Canadian teams in the Stanley Cup Finals while all of Canada would love it.
With the playoff race being so tight between the Leafs and the Florida Panthers battling for 3rd in the Atlantic, I would be so curious which team Bettman is actually routing for to make the playoffs...one, a historic original 6 franchise that prints money whether they fail or succeed, but is also a Canadian team...another, a US team that could benefit both financially and in growing the game in the US by garnering US viewership interest.
AreBe
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Exactly! The NHL - an American based business seeking a US TV deal - clearly puts on “events” and not “games”.
Loves those Canadians and their cultural need to embrace the Doctrine of NHL infallibility and the Gospel According to Hockey Night In Canada: watching and showing up no matter what!
AreBe
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Very insightful!I find it amusing when HNIC and all these Canadian TV networks and broadcasters are jerking off to themselves about the renewed passion that is the Battle of Alberta between the Flames and Oilers...I'm sure US viewers, US TV networks and Gary Bettman are falling head-over-heals about the Battle of Alberta!
When recently asked about potential changes to the playoff format, Bettman mockingly said it's only a concern if you're the Toronto Maple Leafs (ie. having been ousted by the Bruins in the last couple of years)...casual jousting or a slip of the tongue and a revelation into his heart of what he really feels about Canadian teams? He is after all an American AND wants to expand the game in the US...anyone should not be surprised with him favouring US teams when in fact he is looking for the biggest US TV network deal in NHL history, and the only way that gets done is to showcase US teams in the playoffs and making deep runs in the playoffs and winning championships! Bettman's biggest nightmare would be having two Canadian teams in the Stanley Cup Finals while all of Canada would love it.
With the playoff race being so tight between the Leafs and the Florida Panthers battling for 3rd in the Atlantic, I would be so curious which team Bettman is actually routing for to make the playoffs...one, a historic original 6 franchise that prints money whether they fail or succeed, but is also a Canadian team...another, a US team that could benefit both financially and in growing the game in the US by garnering US viewership interest.
therealkoho
Him/Leaf/fan
like the poster above me said "very insightful"
thanks tips
I share 4 seasons tickets 5 other people here in Ottawa and generally get to about 20 games a year, seeing as I'm a huge Leafs fan and as such I go to each Leaf game here, I'm very aware of NHL ticket prices but thanks anyway
