I'm on stub hub....

[jessebelanger]

Might have something to do with the fact that all of Vancouver thinks the Cup has the Canucks' name on it this year and the team just had its best regular season ever?

That hardly can be seen as exemplary for the league or even good hockey markets.

Why not? Isn't that the essence of sports fandom?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Yeah but then you might not get a thousand private individuals willing to pay the 100-150 bucks for those tickets night-in night-out. Selling them to corporations or making them part of sponsorship deals gets you a reliable income for those seats and serves your relationship with the local corporate base.

Oh by all means I'm not saying they shouldn't sell them to corporations. That's the bread and butter of most sports leagues these days. It's just that you do indeed lose revenue when people don't show up, even if the ticket is sold.

I know several companies with tickets. They don't try very hard. They'll call a couple of their customers, and if people can't make it due to travel, family, etc., they just don't worry about them. By the time they check with contacts, it's probably game day. Since it is a corporate crowd, people travel frequently too-- we are talking the sales and management side of companies, the people most likely to be tied up or traveling.

Why worry? They expense the tickets to company entertainment budget, it's a sunk cost.

I promise to make this my last Atlanta comparison (unless something really juicy comes along ) but it's really striking how casual this board can be about writing off falling-demand indicators in Detroit while raking other cities over the coals for the exact same symptoms. I'm to believe that Detroit has low interest due to playoff fatigue from all their past success, their arena is inconveniently located downtown so people can't be bothered to go there, and corporate ticket holders can't pawn off playoff seats for free, and none of this should raise any red flags about a general decline in interest within the market?

Like I said above, seeing that the Wings are in top ten for HRR, the ancillary stuff you mention is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. They mostly sell out the bldg at $55-ish avg regular season price; they have $30MM in TV money; their suites are sold; they have sponsors and so on.

That doesn't change the fact that empty seats represent lost revenue. Again, it seems a bit glib to suggest the Wings can't be bothered with little frivolous factors like people showing up and purchasing merchandise, because they make so much TV money that it doesn't matter.

In fact, I've suggested before that they might be better off sliding into position 11 on the HRR chart. Once you're in the top ten, you get taxed by the league for revenue transfer. There's probably a sweet spot where the incremental revenue they make ends up in the NHL's revenue transfer pocket. They're working for the recipient teams.

Can't argue with that. What a dumb system that would provide incentives to "tank" financially. Still, even if they are "working for the recipient' teams, their lost dollars affect the health of the league as a whole, which in turn comes back on the Wings eventually. IMO, that's not the kind of profit teams should be pursuing.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Why not? Isn't that the essence of sports fandom?

It's not a "typical" scenario, that's the point. There won't be a hungry fanbase that thinks this is their year for every team every year.

Given the "hype" situation in Vancouver at the moment, I'm surprised there are people even selling tickets.

 

[Fugu]

I promise to make this my last Atlanta comparison (unless something really juicy comes along ) but it's really striking how casual this board can be about writing off falling-demand indicators in Detroit while raking other cities over the coals for the exact same symptoms. I'm to believe that Detroit has low interest due to playoff fatigue from all their past success, their arena is inconveniently located downtown so people can't be bothered to go there, and corporate ticket holders can't pawn off playoff seats for free, and none of this should raise any red flags about a general decline in interest within the market?

Exact same symptoms?

Then you have selective reading going on, tarheel. Wings fans have acknowledged the fall in the STH base from the peak days (2004), and furthermore the economic crisis in this region is very real. Last year, half of all the homes moved in this area were foreclosed properties. The unemployment rate in many of the counties surrounding the Wings home, and statewide, were ~15%! Real incomes have not only fallen but there are few opportunities for jobs of any kind, so people leave the state.

TV ratings however are still among the highest in the country, and are higher than the Pistons. If you really want to consider what is going on economically and interest-wise here, you'll pull up the plight of the NBA team too.

I will agree that the numbers are less than the peak years ('97-2004), but it is nowhere as simple as you make it out to be.

What is truly worrisome though, and you will refuse to consider this, is that in spite of the mess here, the Wings are still at the top echelon in the league for revenues. Chew on that, tarheel.

That doesn't change the fact that empty seats represent lost revenue. Again, it seems a bit glib to suggest the Wings can't be bothered with little frivolous factors like people showing up and purchasing merchandise, because they make so much TV money that it doesn't matter.

Wings are 4th in the NHL for HRR per Forbes. Only the NYR are higher of American teams. Where the hell are the supersized markets???????



[/quote]Can't argue with that. What a dumb system that would provide incentives to "tank" financially. Still, even if they are "working for the recipient' teams, their lost dollars affect the health of the league as a whole, which in turn comes back on the Wings eventually. IMO, that's not the kind of profit teams should be pursuing.[/quote]

No, it doesn't. The health of the league is a burden being borne by the top ten for the bottom fifteen-- that qualify. Some teams are hurt by this too (the Isles come to mind).

There are health issues, but what you refuse to consider is that this isn't the best solution to this problem-- and that all the teams have the SAME problem. You simply jump to the point that if someone doesn't like this solution, they're saying there is no problem. Consider separating things to their root causes and then go from there.

One size does NOT fit all.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Exact same symptoms?

Then you have selective reading going on, tarheel.

No selective reading here. Playoff fatigue, perceived inconvenience of the arena location, and lack of desire to accept free tickets have nothing to do with the economy. Those are specific indicators that have been referenced time and again in other threads as indicators of low demand for NHL hockey.

What is truly worrisome though, and you will refuse to consider this, is that in spite of the mess here, the Wings are still at the top echelon in the league for revenues. Chew on that, tarheel.

Am I supposed to be bothered by that? This isn't about trying to prove that the Wings are somehow unsuccessful at making money, this is about looking at the red flags that are waving in front of our faces. You're telling me that corporations can't unload free playoff tickets to clients... seats are going for less than $20 on the resale market, a loss for those who bought them originally... entire rows of empties are visible... those are signs that something is amiss in Detroit and it goes beyond the economy.

Again, it's really hard to believe that after reading thousands of posts going into excruciating detail on these issues, you sincerely don't think there is anything relevant going on here in regards to market demand.

There are health issues, but what you refuse to consider is that this isn't the best solution to this problem-- and that all the teams have the SAME problem. You simply jump to the point that if someone doesn't like this solution, they're saying there is no problem. Consider separating things to their root causes and then go from there.

I'm honestly not sure what you're saying in this post, but I'm pretty sure it begins with misunderstanding my point of view. What "solution"?

 

[Fugu]

No selective reading here. Playoff fatigue, perceived inconvenience of the arena location, and lack of desire to accept free tickets have nothing to do with the economy. Those are specific indicators that have been referenced time and again in other threads as indicators of low demand for NHL hockey.

Just because fans reference it doesn't mean its valid. Maybe they're misinformed. I've produce shocking economic indicators for you which you dismiss blithely as far as REAL issues going on here.

DESPITE OF ALL THIS, the Wings revenues have actually grown!

You figure out how to reconcile those issues.

What does it say when all these things may be happening but HRR has grown? And what does it say when all these things are NOT happening in another market and HRR has not grown, or the team is being sold due to owner claims about hundreds of millions of dollars in losses? In fact, the Wings spend more than most of these other teams, so it's not like their costs are higher.

Am I supposed to be bothered by that? This isn't about trying to prove that the Wings are somehow unsuccessful at making money, this is about looking at the red flags that are waving in front of our faces. You're telling me that corporations can't unload free playoff tickets to clients... seats are going for less than $20 on the resale market, a loss for those who bought them originally... entire rows of empties are visible... those are signs that something is amiss in Detroit and it goes beyond the economy.

I guess we worry when their HRR declines.

Again, it's really hard to believe that after reading thousands of posts going into excruciating detail on these issues, you sincerely don't think there is anything relevant going on here in regards to market demand.

That's not what I said. I was the one that pointed out there has been a decline in some indicators from the peak period (number of STH's, no growth in avg ticket prices for regular season, and the perception that seats are empty). TV ratings are down from peak values (in the 9.0 or higher range on Fox) but are still healthy and among the best in the NHL--- 4-ish range.

I'm honestly not sure what you're saying in this post, but I'm pretty sure it begins with misunderstanding my point of view. What "solution"?

Using the global HRR pool to set a cap with the misdirected manner of revenue transfer, both in concept and total money shared. It's a bandaid solution that does NOTHING to help teams that need to grow revenues actually do that, but the system has raised the % of their HRR they have to spend on players.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Just because fans reference it doesn't mean its valid. Maybe they're misinformed. I've produce shocking economic indicators for you which you dismiss blithely as far as REAL issues going on here.

The economic indicators are applicable as far as selling tickets is concerned. Not so much in terms of explaining why people who already have tickets aren't showing up to the games.

DESPITE OF ALL THIS, the Wings revenues have actually grown!

You figure out how to reconcile those issues.

The Wings always make a ****load of money. They're as close to a model franchise as it gets in this league. They play in a city that has, until recently, had an overwhelmingly positive response to them. But they have loads of empty seats at a sold-out playoff game. Why is it up to me alone to reconcile those strangely contradictory facts? All I've done is point out that, if we are going to accept factors like "playoff fatigue" as a legitimate reason, we need to remember to apply that standard consistently in other threads.

I guess we worry when their HRR declines.

My sense of this situation is that an HRR decline is right around the corner. It might be a decline from HUGE profit to less-HUGE-but-still-pretty-HUGE profit. But that doesn't mean it's nothing to care about.

Using the global HRR pool to set a cap with the misdirected manner of revenue transfer, both in concept and total money shared. It's a bandaid solution that does NOTHING to help teams that need to grow revenues actually do that, but the system has raised the % of their HRR they have to spend on players.

I explicitly agreed that it's a dumb system.

 

[Fugu]

Well then let's worry when it happens. I have a hard time running up the red flag for the second highest grossing US-based team. (Chicago should pass them...), especially when several franchises are looking for buyers.


What do you think of the NBA vs NHL ticket prices above? You went off on one of your tangents again.

 

[aparch]

It seems there is a little bit of a disconnect in the arguments. We all have to remember that we're arguing over prices posted for tickets on a SECONDARY market (StubHub). Those fancy graphs look to be the average price per ticket sold through the PRIMARY market (Team/Ticketmaster).

The tickets I purchased (mentioned earlier in this thread), I bought for $20 each on StubHub. When I received them, the face value printed on them shows $50.

Somewhere, someone bought tickets for face value (or for a slightly discounted rate) through the team, and them re-posted them at a much lower rate in an effort to dump them. I have a feeling the $8 tickets are much the same. Just someone who wants to get rid of tickets under face to "make" a couple of bucks on what would be a loss.

If you price yourself too high, no one buys them, and you're stuck with the full value.

 

[tarheelhockey]

My immediate thought about the price graph is that the NHL is much more imbalanced east-to-west than the NBA.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I don't even know what we are exactly arguing about here.

Nobody denies that fan interest is on the downswing in Detroit for a variety of reasons.

It sounds to me like one slant of the argument is the typical Sun Belt supporter glee whenever a non-Southern team isn't selling out every game at $300 a ticket.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It sounds to me like one slant of the argument is the typical Sun Belt supporter glee whenever a non-Southern team isn't selling out every game at $300 a ticket.

What glee is to be had from empty seats?

I was referring very narrowly to factors being cited as reasons behind the downswing, which have been mocked and dismissed as nonsense in other threads. Other than that, I'm not sure the "argument" was an argument at all, just people talking past each other.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Might have something to do with the fact that all of Vancouver thinks the Cup has the Canucks' name on it this year and the team just had its best regular season ever?

That hardly can be seen as exemplary for the league or even good hockey markets.

Not at all. We were paying these prices in Vancouver since 2004 for playoff tickets. Even last season the worst nosebleed tickets started at $115 from ticketmaster (which quickly sold out) and on the secondary market they were going for at least $150 each ticket.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Not at all. We were paying these prices in Vancouver since 2004 for playoff tickets. Even last season the worst nosebleed tickets started at $115 from ticketmaster (which quickly sold out) and on the secondary market they were going for at least $150 each ticket.

I know Vancouver's always very hyped up around the playoffs, as most Canadian markets tend to be. But it's probably even more extreme than it is normally this year.

I was referring very narrowly to factors being cited as reasons behind the downswing, which have been mocked and dismissed as nonsense in other threads

Well, I haven't really dismissed them in other threads and I can only speak for myself.

I personally doubt the arena location plays any role by the way. It'd be hard to find a location more suitable than downtown Detroit given that fans come in from pretty much all directions.

 

[IU Hawks fan]

Maybe Wings fans just have the 90's Braves syndrom. Not worth shelling out big bucks for early round games to them since they are always there.

 

[digitaljohn]

Maybe Wings fans just have the 90's Braves syndrom. Not worth shelling out big bucks for early round games to them since they are always there.

Pretty much. Everyone around here takes it for granted that the Wings will advance and they'll be able to go to a later round game. Cheering 47+ playoff series in 20 years will do that to a fanbase.