Rumor: Ilya Sorokin (in the works?)

[Rick C137]

Musto, out of that entire post about drafting goalies in the first round you decided to defend Gravel? and your junk theory of not drafting goalies high.

OK, what are the redeeming qualities that make Gravel an NHL goalie out of the 6th round?. And, why should the Hawks continue to draft goalies in the later rounds instead of the early rounds?

How many times have you seen Gravel play this season? Goalies numbers are largely dependent on the team they have in front of them especially in junior hockey where their are bigger talent gaps between teams. Gravel is playing on the second worst team in the Q. I’d say there’s a very good chance he’s not getting much of a chance there. I saw him a few times last year and he was outstanding when his team wasn’t a joke. Lehner is 24th in sv%. Has he not been a top goalie this year?

The theory of not drafting goalies high is not junk. It actually makes a lot of sense. I actually don’t see the logic for using high picks on goalies now a days tbh. Third round is the first one I’d even think about a goalie

 

[LDF]

Halifax's best players got traded. Barron has been injured. They're in full tank mode. 2nd worst team in the league. Meanwhile last year's roster took them to the Memorial Cup finals.

hey i am not against you on this, i am just saying that with ref to Gravel and stat watchers, there are other mitigating factors to every point.

 

[echlfreak]

So going back to the last draft that has a goalie who is playing in the NHL (Hart in 2016) and in the salary cap including all goalies drafted in the 6th round:

46 goalies were drafted in the 6th round, 4 goalies have played meaningful mins in the NHL for a.8% success rate Ullmark, Darling, Brossoit, Keumper

13 goalies were drafted in the first round, 8 played meaningful min in the NHL for a 61.5% success rate. Price, Rask, Varlamov, Bernier, Campbell, Subban, Vasilevskeiy, Samsonov

I'll take the first-round group at that success rate over the 6th and later.

 

[Rick C137]

So going back to the last draft that has a goalie who is playing in the NHL (Hart in 2016) and in the salary cap including all goalies drafted in the 6th round:

46 goalies were drafted in the 6th round, 4 goalies have played meaningful mins in the NHL for a.8% success rate Ullmark, Darling, Brossoit, Keumper

13 goalies were drafted in the first round, 8 played meaningful min in the NHL for a 61.5% success rate. Price, Rask, Varlamov, Bernier, Campbell, Subban, Vasilevskeiy, Samsonov

I'll take the first-round group at that success rate over the 6th and later.

What point are you trying to make here exactly?

 

[echlfreak]

What point are you trying to make here exactly?

Well Rick, read the last sentence

 

[Fortyfives]

I guess better players get drafted in earlier rounds

 

[Rick C137]

Well Rick, read the last sentence

No need for the snark it was an honest question. If your whole point is that goalies drafted in the first round generally turn out better than ones in the 6th and later I’m not gonna argue you at all. But the initial point was talking about the theory of drafting goalies early being wrong which you diddnt really disprove at all. That’s why I was kinda confused. Just trying to figure out what your trying to prove.

 

[echlfreak]

Rick, my point is if you want a good goalie prospect then you need to be willing to draft them in the first 1-4 rounds, the higher the better. If you want to wait to the 5-7th like Musto then don't expect much. It's like a needle in a haystack in those rounds.

Do your own research and look when all the goalies currently in the NHL are drafted. How many studs are drafted after the 4th round?

It's a stupid argument.

 

[Kevin Musto]

Do your own research and look when all the goalies currently in the NHL are drafted. How many studs are drafted after the 4th round?

Kuemper, Khudobin, Francouz (undrafted), Halak are all playing well this season.

Connor Hellebuyck, a stud, was drafted in the 5th round.

 

[ColbyChaos]

Its a damn shame our G cupboards are so bare

Mike Smith drafted both Crawford and Anderson in his short stint as GM of Hawks ,, Stan in a decade has drafted nothing even mediocre at position at draft

Goalie is the most unpredictable and dumb position to spend picks on. Rarely is the first goalie picked in a draft ever even the best. Look at the 2000 and 2003 drafts had a goalie picked first overall neither one were the best goalie.

Look at any draft there is about 25-30 goalies picked every year. Now look at those drafted goalies, youll see one maybe two guys who made the NHL as a starter then a bunch of guys who were in the league for a season or so and washed out. Its as close to a wasted pick as one could get when odds are you could find a undrafted FA who could play in the league.

 

[echlfreak]

Kuemper, Khudobin, Francouz (undrafted), Halak are all playing well this season.

Connor Hellebuyck, a stud, was drafted in the 5th round.

8% compared to 61.5%

Khudobin and Halak were drafted before the salary cap era. Plus, you missed Bobrovsky who wasn't drafted. Stupid argument as usual Musto. But you are going to hang your hat on Hellebuyck the one goalie that was drafted in the later rounds to support your theory of drafting goalies late.

 

[Kevin Musto]

8% compared to 61.5%

Khudobin and Halak were drafted before the salary cap era. Nice argument as usual Musto. But you are going to hang your hat on Hellebuyck the one goalie that was drafted in the later rounds to support your theory of drafting goalies late. Idiot!!!

You're right man. Joel Gistedt, Antoine Lafleur, Trevor Cann, Jeremy Smith, Chet Pickard, Tom McCollum, Tyler Beskorowany, Peter Delmas, Igor Bobkov, Matt Hackett, Adam Morrison, Michael Lee, Jack Campbell, Mark Visentin, Calvin Pickard, Kent Simpson, Magnus Hellberg, Christopher Gibson, Malcolm Subban, Oscar Dansk, Anthony Stolarz, Zach Fucale, Philippe Desrosiers, Eric Comrie, and Mason McDonald are all bonafide studs. Each and every one a homerun pick. I was wrong, you should definitely draft goalies early.

 

[Rick C137]

Rick, my point is if you want a good goalie prospect then you need to be willing to draft them in the first 1-4 rounds, the higher the better. If you want to wait to the 5-7th like Musto then don't expect much. It's like a needle in a haystack in those rounds.

Do your own research and look when all the goalies currently in the NHL are drafted. How many studs are drafted after the 4th round?

It's a stupid argument.

I’d like a good goalie prospect sure. But I wouldn’t like an elite goaltending prospect more than I would like an elite skater prospect, that’s kind of the point.

Im not even trying to make the argument that goaltenders in the late rounds are better (but there are a lot of good ones), the point is that it doesn’t make sense now a days to use high value draft picks on a goalie. There’s only one net so there’s ALWAYS gonna be a team with too many cooks in net. We literally just signed a veznia finalist for free last season. Top end goaltending is a lot easier to acquire than top end skaters through trades and free agency so why waste your high end draft picks on something you can get for a reasonable fee later? Use your highest value draft picks to draft your highest value players. Makes sense right?

I just don’t think spending high picks on goalies is a very smart way to manage your assets. My take on goalies is you draft one every year or two in the late rounds and try to develop them, if not you address the goaltending later.

 

[ColbyChaos]

Rick, my point is if you want a good goalie prospect then you need to be willing to draft them in the first 1-4 rounds, the higher the better. If you want to wait to the 5-7th like Musto then don't expect much. It's like a needle in a haystack in those rounds.

Do your own research and look when all the goalies currently in the NHL are drafted. How many studs are drafted after the 4th round?

It's a stupid argument.

I like how you went from goalies need to be drafted in the first round with your original post to including all the way down to the 4th round now

rounds 5+/undrafted
Az: Kuemper/Raanta
Cgy: Rittich/Talbot
EDM: Smith/Koskinen

COL: Francouz
DAL: Khudobin
NSH: Rinne
WPG: Helleybuck, Brossoit

Car: Mrazek
NYR: Georgiev
PHI: Elliott

BOS: Halak
BUF: Hutton
FLA: Bob
MTL: Lindgren
TBL: McElhinney

When a third of the league's goalie tandems are either undrafted guys or players taken in the late rounds it doesnt really help your argument there.

 

[echlfreak]

Schmaltzlick8

8% compared to 61.5%

Keep chasing your 8%

 

[ColbyChaos]

Who would you rather have at this point 1st rounders Jonathan Bernier, Jack Campbell, Al Montoya? Or Hellebuyck, Bob, and Raanta? For every Rask and Price there are a lot more duds when it comes to first round goalies

 

[echlfreak]

You're right man. Joel Gistedt, Antoine Lafleur, Trevor Cann, Jeremy Smith, Chet Pickard, Tom McCollum, Tyler Beskorowany, Peter Delmas, Igor Bobkov, Matt Hackett, Adam Morrison, Michael Lee, Jack Campbell, Mark Visentin, Calvin Pickard, Kent Simpson, Magnus Hellberg, Christopher Gibson, Malcolm Subban, Oscar Dansk, Anthony Stolarz, Zach Fucale, Philippe Desrosiers, Eric Comrie, and Mason McDonald are all bonafide studs. Each and every one a homerun pick. I was wrong, you should definitely draft goalies early.

Look at all the goalies in the NHL right now. See which rounds they are drafted in? I am willing to be wrong but how many are drafted in the late rounds? You'll get Halak, Lundqvist, Rinne etc who were drafted before a salary cap was set in place.

 

[plasmonresonance]

Sorokin was drafted mid-3rd round, is that early enough to be excited or are we in the 8% group of excitment?

 

[Icejoker]

I like how you went from goalies need to be drafted in the first round with your original post to including all the way down to the 4th round now

rounds 5+/undrafted
Az: Kuemper/Raanta
Cgy: Rittich/Talbot
EDM: Smith/Koskinen

COL: Francouz
DAL: Khudobin
NSH: Rinne
WPG: Helleybuck, Brossoit

Car: Mrazek
NYR: Georgiev
PHI: Elliott

BOS: Halak
BUF: Hutton
FLA: Bob
MTL: Lindgren
TBL: McElhinney

When a third of the league's goalie tandems are either undrafted guys or players taken in the late rounds it doesnt really help your argument there.

In 2009 Koskinen was the first in second round pick. 31OA

 

[TheDachKnight]

Not sure if this was mentioned yet, but Gravel was ranked higher pre-draft. He was projected to go in the 3rd round I believe. He fell I believe because of concerns with his work ethic, since he was heavier. The next training camp, he came into camp in much better shape. Saying he’s a 6th round goalie simply because he was drafted there doesn’t quite tell the whole story. Realistically, he’s a 3rd/4th round goalie in terms of talent. Plenty of good goalies have been drafted in those rounds.

 

[echlfreak]

Not sure if this was mentioned yet, but Gravel was ranked higher pre-draft. He was projected to go in the 3rd round I believe. He fell I believe because of concerns with his work ethic, since he was heavier. The next training camp, he came into camp in much better shape. Saying he’s a 6th round goalie simply because he was drafted there doesn’t quite tell the whole story. Realistically, he’s a 3rd/4th round goalie in terms of talent. Plenty of good goalies have been drafted in those rounds.

And then he was passed on for 5 rounds by 31 teams.

Gibson-2nd
Rask-1st
Lehner-2nd
Crawford-2nd
Varlamov-1st
Howard-2nd
Quick-3rd
Dubnyk-1st
Price-1st
Shesterkin-3rd
Murray-3rd
Jarry-2nd
Vasilevskiey-1st
Fleury-1st
Markstrom-2nd
Holtby-4th
Binnington-2nd
Allen-2nd
Schnieder-1st
Bishop-3rd
Andersen-3rd
Anderson-3rd
Hart-2nd
Blackwood-2nd
Demko-2nd
Merzlikins-2nd
Samsonov-1st
Korpisalo-3rd
Campbell-1st
Grubauer-4th
Bernier-1st
Enroth-2nd
Mason-3rd
Pavelec-2nd

But I like your argument to wait for the 5th-7th round

 

[TheDachKnight]

And then he was passed on for 5 rounds by 31 teams.

Gibson-2nd
Rask-1st
Lehner-2nd
Crawford-2nd
Varlamov-1st
Howard-2nd
Quick-3rd
Dubnyk-1st
Price-1st
Shesterkin-3rd
Murray-3rd
Jarry-2nd
Vasilevskiey-1st
Fleury-1st
Markstrom-2nd
Holtby-4th
Binnington-2nd
Allen-2nd
Schnieder-1st
Bishop-3rd
Andersen-3rd
Anderson-3rd
Hart-2nd
Blackwood-2nd
Demko-2nd
Merzlikins-2nd
Samsonov-1st
Korpisalo-3rd
Campbell-1st
Grubauer-4th
Bernier-1st
Enroth-2nd
Mason-3rd
Pavelec-2nd

But I like your argument to wait for the 5th-7th round

That wasn’t what I was arguing. I was arguing that Gravel has more upside than a typical 6th round pick goalie. Not saying he’s a future superstar or anything, but I could see him making the NHL.

 

[echlfreak]

I like how you went from goalies need to be drafted in the first round with your original post to including all the way down to the 4th round now

rounds 5+/undrafted
Az: Kuemper/Raanta
Cgy: Rittich/Talbot
EDM: Smith/Koskinen

COL: Francouz
DAL: Khudobin
NSH: Rinne
WPG: Helleybuck, Brossoit

Car: Mrazek
NYR: Georgiev
PHI: Elliott

BOS: Halak
BUF: Hutton
FLA: Bob
MTL: Lindgren
TBL: McElhinney

When a third of the league's goalie tandems are either undrafted guys or players taken in the late rounds it doesnt really help your argument there.

Would you like to go based on Stanley Cups?

Ward-1st
Giggy-1st
Osgood-3rd
Fleury-1st
Neimi-Undrafted
Thomas-9th
Quick-3rd
Crawford-2nd
Quick-3rd
Crawford-3rd
Murray-3rd/Fleury-1st
Murray-3rd
Holtby-4th
Binnington-2nd

So the last 14 Stanley Cup winners have 2 goalies drafted outside of the 4th round.

Thomas won with Rask as a 1st round back up
Neimi won with Crawford as a 2nd round back up
Holtby won with a 4th round back up

 

[echlfreak]

That wasn’t what I was arguing. I was arguing that Gravel has more upside than a typical 6th round pick goalie. Not saying he’s a future superstar or anything, but I could see him making the NHL.

TPOEJ... I understand what you were saying the rest of the post was for the two idiots who keep arguing not to draft goalies high and to wait for the later rounds.

 

[TheDachKnight]

TPOEJ... I understand what you were saying the rest of the post was for the two idiots who keep arguing not to draft goalies high and to wait for the later rounds.

Askarov is someone I’d definitely be willing to take a chance on. Knight last year was another one. I think there’s definitely some goalies that you can take a chance on in the 1st. Now I wouldn’t have taken Knight as high as the Panthers did, but he was still worth a 1st round pick to me. Just a later one. If we acquire another 1st and it’s late teens/early 20’s and Askarov is still there, I’m taking him.