Illtch,Wings and Tigers.

[Syckle78]

I brought this up over a year, maybe even longer than that and it got dismissed without much consideration. I will see what you guys think now.

I'm really starting to think there's nothing left in Mike's tank when it comes to the Wings. I don't think he has much desire to ice another Stanley Cup champion. I believe all his focus has shifted towards the Tigers and a quest to finally get a WS win at him at the helm.

There just seems like there is absolutely zero drive from the top down in the organization right now or over the last few years to be elite. Look at the stark contrast between Tigers transactions and Wings transactions since the last cup run. The Tigers have traded for or signed major talent while the Wings have brought in the likes of kfq, tootoo and Sammy.

This is almost like a bizarre world flip of the script from the 90's and early '00s. How many if you recall when the Wings were making major moves and the Tigers were setting records for ineptitude? Illtch gave not one **** as he allowed the great Randy f' n Smith to run the team into the ground for over 6 years.

My point is this. You guys can argue over line combos, free agent signings and prospects. But if ownership is going to treat the Wings like they did the Tigers it's going to get ugly as hell and Holland and Babs are going to be the least of the problem.

Click to read more...

 

[BamaWing]

Interesting thought. I definitely won't dismiss it but I will say this. The economics of baseball and hockey are complete opposites right now. Baseball has more money than they know what to do but again, interesting thought nonetheless.

 

[Syckle78]

Well the money is still there for the Wings. It's not like Illtch family is hurting for dough and can't afford to field two championship caliber teams. It's the focus and desire that is the problem, if there is in fact a problem. I just remember how Illtch allowed the Wings to toil in mediocrity (and be down right putrid) for so long. I just can't come up with a reason why he or the family would care if the Wings struggled likewise. Especially since the Tigers and baseball were his first live and he neglected them.

 

[TNigs]

So you think Illtch is telling Holldand to sign Samuelsson and trade a first round pick for Quincey?
You think Illtch is telling Holland to keep a point per game forward in the AHL when the Wings have an entire team on injured reserve?
It has nothing to do with Illtch...

 

[FlashyG]

I think Ilitch has always wanted a World Series more than a Stanley Cup, he was a pro baseball player before opening Little Cesaers so its not surprising they are his first priority.

I think the main reason he's putting more money into them is the fact that there is no salary cap in baseball and he's limited in his spending on the Wings.

I'm also not sure he does much in controlling the Wings, I believe the day to day operations are run by his kids.

 

[WesNichols14]

idk I think it has more to do with there being no cap in the MLB. plus its not like he didn't put his money into trying to get free agents here. they offered very big deals to both Suter and Parise over the summer but they wanted to go to the wild. mr. I is also putting a lot of money into building a new arena for the Wings. Which will help them land big name free agents.

 

[Syckle78]

So you think Illtch is telling Holldand to sign Samuelsson and trade a first round pick for Quincey?
You think Illtch is telling Holland to keep a point per game forward in the AHL when the Wings have an entire team on injured reserve?
It has nothing to do with Illtch...

Uh, no.

I'm saying that Illtch gets what he wants. If he was anxious for another cup Holland would be more aggressive and proactive. There doesn't seem to be any fire at the top fueling the front office. If you think old Illtch would of allowed second round exit times two followed by a first round ass kicking to go without a major moves to shake things up before you weren't paying attention.

 

[ricky0034]

not really comparable sports

if Hockey didn't have a cap i'm sure the Wings would have made loads more moves

maybe they keep Hossa,maybe they go after Kovalchuk etc

 

[Syckle78]

I think Ilitch has always wanted a World Series more than a Stanley Cup, he was a pro baseball player before opening Little Cesaers so its not surprising they are his first priority.

I think the main reason he's putting more money into them is the fact that there is no salary cap in baseball and he's limited in his spending on the Wings.

I'm also not sure he does much in controlling the Wings, I believe the day to day operations are run by his kids.

True enough about the kids. I was going to mention that aspect. I realize he probably isn't all that active, anyone that seen him rolled out after the alcs can sense that. However I think the kids are following what he wishes and everyone knows how bad he wants that WS ring.

 

[VladTheImpaler]

I think the person who has the very apparent lack of "drive" is KH. Just watch his interviews in the past year and compare them to 3-4 years ago.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Ilitch and co don't want a sucky Wings team while trying to build a new arena.

 

[Motown Beatdown]

Mr I allows his GM's free reign, for good or for bad most of the time. It's why he let Randy smith run the Tigers into the ground for so long. The only time i know Mr I overruled a GM is when Bowman wanted to deal Yzerman. Other than that and of the financials are good they can do what they want.

 

[Syckle78]

Ilitch and co don't want a sucky Wings team while trying to build a new arena.

Remember the Tigers before Comerica? Set a record for most losses in a season...

 

[DatsyukToZetterberg]

So after we go out and miss on Suter (we were never in on Parise) we then have to match the Carle contract, or we make an offer for Semin (which we have no way of nowing whether or not we did) even then we may have made an offer to Semin but maybe he didn't want to leave the EC, we have no way of knowing.

I think the wings were in the Kovalchuk sweep stakes a couple years back when he was first traded from NJ. I don't blame them not going after him once the bidding got up to the 100M+ range, that's a lot of commitment for an owner and if you're not sold on him you stay away. We went to see Brad Richards, we do all of our homework it just plays out that the player wasn't worth the overpay, a player wanted to go home, or some other reason.

It pretty much comes down to Holland & the rest of our Front Office deciding which over pay is worth it and which isn't. There haven't been any guys worth overpaying (outside of the top 1 or 2 guys)

 

[RedWinger10]

Well let me just state the obvious... The Tigers are good and the Wings are struggling. The Tigers have made a lot more money for Illich than they have recently the Wings have made less. Bottom line is they are both businesses and Illich is a businessman. And over the past 1 or 2 years he has been focusing on a new arena for our Detroit Red Wings (a much needed upgrade). I am happy with what he has done for the Wings. We are in a transition from an aging Veteran team to a rebuilding team with more young talent than we know what to do with and he will be good in my opinion moving forward.

 

[RockemSockemProberts]

Well the money is still there for the Wings. It's not like Illtch family is hurting for dough and can't afford to field two championship caliber teams. It's the focus and desire that is the problem, if there is in fact a problem. I just remember how Illtch allowed the Wings to toil in mediocrity (and be down right putrid) for so long. I just can't come up with a reason why he or the family would care if the Wings struggled likewise. Especially since the Tigers and baseball were his first live and he neglected them.

I'm sorry, but I think this is very incorrect. The Wings were horrible when Illich bought the team, but I think it's clear that Jimmy D was working on improving the team from the very start. They were just that bad, and it took time to build.

Now, however, there does seem to be a bit of complacency. Or maybe it just that much harder to be dominant in the "new (crappy) NHL". And if a finger is to be pointed, it should really be at Holland; not Illich.


Man, talk of Illich makes me want a Hot-and-Ready pepperoni pizza, some Crazy Bread with Crazy Sauce, a Vernors or two (which, like the Wings, is not as good as it used to be), and a Wings game. A perfect evening...

 

[Henkka]

Ilitch and co don't want a sucky Wings team while trying to build a new arena.

In three years, there's a young, rising and promising team jumping in on that new arena. That's exactly what we need, low expectations and new boom times ahead after few years of mediocrity.

What comes to topic, I don't buy this Tigers/Wings -theory. It's more of a cap thing not to be that aggressive with your deep pockets.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

Illitch just "ok"ed a 90+ million offer to Suter and 60+ million offer to Parise.

Im sure he favors the tigers but I dont think the purse strings have been tightened. We are still spending near the cap, just on useless players.

 

[Huddy*]

I brought this up over a year, maybe even longer than that and it got dismissed without much consideration. I will see what you guys think now.

I'm really starting to think there's nothing left in Mike's tank when it comes to the Wings. I don't think he has much desire to ice another Stanley Cup champion. I believe all his focus has shifted towards the Tigers and a quest to finally get a WS win at him at the helm.

There just seems like there is absolutely zero drive from the top down in the organization right now or over the last few years to be elite. Look at the stark contrast between Tigers transactions and Wings transactions since the last cup run. The Tigers have traded for or signed major talent while the Wings have brought in the likes of kfq, tootoo and Sammy.

This is almost like a bizarre world flip of the script from the 90's and early '00s. How many if you recall when the Wings were making major moves and the Tigers were setting records for ineptitude? Illtch gave not one **** as he allowed the great Randy f' n Smith to run the team into the ground for over 6 years.

My point is this. You guys can argue over line combos, free agent signings and prospects. But if ownership is going to treat the Wings like they did the Tigers it's going to get ugly as hell and Holland and Babs are going to be the least of the problem.

Meh, Wings are still his pride and joy. He has put all this equity into the Tigers the past few years, bc he can, has the $$ to do it, and has a GM who set up the team quite well. Dombrowski has an open check book, similar to what Holland/Bowman had, and had no cap to limit them. In the past when the Wings were making all those moves, Illitch had a $85-90 million dollar pay roll. You can have a loaded team every year, spending that type of coin, and the Wings did. They dominated teams on a weekly basis, won some cups and BAM, Bettman stopped that...You are seeing a more competitie NHL with this cap, and thus, making it hard for the Wings to dominate like they did in the late 90's and early 00's because of the parity the NHL holds now. I have a hard time believing Mike Illitch doesn't "care" about the RW anymore and while I do agree he his putting all his "cards" into the Tigers, the Wings will always remind him why he has the money to spend on the Tigers, while the Cap holds them back a bit.

Can the RW front office do better in making this team more competitive? Yes they can, and it starts at the top. I really do believe if the Wings don't make the playoffs, and or Holland doesn't pull a move here soon, Illitch will have to cut him loose...

 

[Run the Jewels]

The salary cap is the single biggest thing standing in Detroit's way. If not for the cap we would have Hossa AND Mule, we'd have Suter and maybe even Parise. Heck, he might have overpaid for James Wisniewski just because. Look at how Ilitch operates the Tigers in a sport that has no salary cap, it looks pretty similar to how he ran the Wings before the salary cap was put into place.

The Wings would have spent money if Suter and Parise wanted to come. They aren't going to spend and handcuff themselves on players who are not worth the salary amount. I am critical of Ken Holland when warranted but he doesn't do many really bad deals. Even the Quincey deal - which I hate - is an overpayment but only for a couple years.

The cap forced us to sign Mule to that awful contract. It limits the team's flexibility by forcing the organization to offer no trade clauses to guys like Kronwall. The NHL with its salary cap requires an accountant for a GM and Holland is pretty good at that role. We've got like 20 capable NHL forwards and 10 capable NHL d-men. Heck, for the first time in history we've got a little bit of depth at goalie.

What's true of most other sports is now true for the NHL: parity is here. You cannot dominate for long stretches of time. We were lucky to do as well as we were able to do. We can no longer make blockbuster trades because of the cost in assets (roster players, prospects, draft picks) is prohibitive. We cannot outbid other teams for free agents as once again the cost is prohibitive. You need elite talent that will eat up a good chunk of your capspace and lots of good, young talent to fill out the roster.

We have the good young talent in place. Now we just need the elite talent. My guess is we'll be forced to acquire it through the draft. And just as a point of reference, the top 2-3 picks in the NHL draft generally turn out to be very good, which is quite similar to the NBA draft and is nothing like MLB.

2010
1. Taylor Hall
2. Tyler Seguin
2009
1. John Tavares
2. Victor Hedman
3. Matt Duchene
4. Evander Kane
2008
1. Steve Stamkos
2. Drew Doughty
3. Zach Bogosian
4. Alex Pietrangelo
2007
1.Patrick Kane
2. James VanRiemsdyk
3. Kyle Turris
2006
1. Erik Johnson
2. Jordan Staal
3. Jonathan Toews
4. Niklas Backstrom
2005
1. Sid Crosby
2. Bobby Ryan
3. Jack Johnson
2004
1. Alexander Ovechkin
2. Evgeni Malkin

A pick in the top 2 is almost assuredly a can't miss prospect and elite talent. And the top 10 of these drafts are littered with NHL All Stars. Like the NBA the cream is at the very top and then there's a noticeable drop off. Unlike the NBA you can get All Stars and Hall of Famers with later picks and that's likely due to more positions/rosters and a true development/minor league system.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Ilitch is a great owner for both teams. They are likely to go up and down that is the nature of the sports business.

Another funny missing point is a lot of the Tigers fortunes changed shortly after he got them out of dumpy Tigers stadium. People love the place so they overlook that and the first couple of rough seasons at Comerica, but that likely allowed them some benefits that people underestimate in the Tigers turnaround. I am curious what the new stadium will do for free agents as far as Detroit and some of the perks it will offer.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

Illitch just "ok"ed a 90+ million offer to Suter and 60+ million offer to Parise.

Why didn't he ok 98 million for both?

 

[ScottyBowman]

I don't think he cares as much for the Red Wings anymore. Its 100% Detroit Tigers full steam ahead and I can't blame him. The Tigers are a great team, where the Red Wings are filled with ahl players.

 

[dtones520]

Considering that Detroit has been aggressive in signing players to long, big money contracts, have always tried to spend up to the Cap and pay top dollar for their coaches, management staff and scouts, I'd say that Illitch still cares if the Wings succeed. The problem is that the salary cap and the eventual decline caused by a league where there is so much parity now have finally caught up with us. We were aggressive in free agency last summer, we missed out on our top targets. We were bound to do that.

 

[dtones520]

If the NHL still had no Cap like baseball does the Red Wings would still be a major spender. He is spending tons on the Tigers because they are at a point where they are legit contenders and long playoff runs make more money for his sports franchises. It's not like he has told the Wings they can't be spending money or that they have their own in system Cap. If we signed Suter and possibly Parise, we would be facing the reality of buying guys out before next year.