IIHF and NHL reach deal, Russia stays out

[Timmy]

My take on it that the fee for a player must be paid by a league, not by individual team, because it is the whole league that rips the dividends, not just the team.

Correct.

That is how it works in soccer (sorry, football), the model you are using for comparison, right?

 

[Siberian]

Correct.

That is how it works in soccer (sorry, football), the model you are using for comparison, right?

If I was using football model for comparison then the price for Malkin would have been 10 mil, so chill out.

 

[Timmy]

If I was using football model for comparison then the price for Malkin would have been 10 mil, so chill out.

So, in football, a Malkin-type player would command a $10 million dollar transfer-fee payment to be paid by the team.

In hockey, that transfer fee should be roughly a quarter of that, but paid by the league.

What, exactly, is the rationale behind this theory?

And, too keep the comparisons on an all things being equal basis, am I to assume that hockey in Europe earns about a quarter of the revenues for its teams than soccer?

And I am sorry, I'm not overly proficient in the cranium department, but I don't understand the "chill out" comment. The basis of discussions I have seen regarding the transfer payments and the justification thereof is that they are used in football, and are extremely large. I also thought they were paid by individual teams and their owners. You have brought in the concept that the league as a whole should pay the fees, since the whole league reaps the rewards of having a Russian player grace us with his presence. But in football the leagues do not pay transfer fees, the clubs do, so I don't understand the difference.

As I have mentioned before, I'm not overly bright, and require enlightenment from someone familiar with the concepts.

 

[kdb209]

You got everything right. Already Russian hockey is better off these days than when there was the agreement when NHL teams could pick any player from Russia for peanuts. Those days when NHL took the players and let them rot in the farm clubs are gone. Most of the youngsters of Svitov's caliber will stay in Russia. Let NHL take Kovalchuk, Malkin but for a fair price, not for peanuts.

And when yongsters of Svitov's caliber, let alone the next Kovalchuk, Overchkin, or Malkin figure out this new economic reality of yours (with healthy advice from NHL agents) and start refusing to sign long term deals that tie them up past 18 or 20 yo, and start leaving for the NHL with no contractual obligations and no transfer fees at all to the RSL, then what.

Remember, these players aren't cattle. They aren't the property of the RSL team. Previosly, with the IIHF transfer deal in place, they would be willing to sign a longer term deal, knowing that they had an out. Will they still be willing to do that now?

 

[Timmy]

And when yongsters of Svitov's caliber, let alone the next Kovalchuk, Overchkin, or Malkin figure out this new economic reality of yours (with healthy advice from NHL agents) and start refusing to sign long term deals that tie them up past 18 or 20 yo, and start leaving for the NHL with no contractual obligations and no transfer fees at all to the RSL, then what.

Remember, these players aren't cattle. They aren't the property of the RSL team. Previosly, with the IIHF transfer deal in place, they would be willing to sign a longer term deal, knowing that they had an out. Will they still be willing to do that now?

The sponsor will simply refuse to pay for their development (the parents can't afford the equipment, travel, etc) while the players are developing, and will have the players locked up long before they are at a draft-eligible age, to ensure that when the player is drafted and transfers to the NHL, the RSL team will have him under contract and will demand payment, regardless of what stage the player's at.

They're not cattle, but they're vulnerable. If they're told they're good enough to justify an NHL team paying a fee, why do they care if they lock up with a Russian sponsor willing to provide for him and his family while developing him as a player?

Make no mistake, they'll be under the thumb of their patrons at a much younger age.

 

[Siberian]

So, in football, a Malkin-type player would command a $10 million dollar transfer-fee payment to be paid by the team.

In hockey, that transfer fee should be roughly a quarter of that, but paid by the league.

What, exactly, is the rationale behind this theory?

And, too keep the comparisons on an all things being equal basis, am I to assume that hockey in Europe earns about a quarter of the revenues for its teams than soccer?

And I am sorry, I'm not overly proficient in the cranium department, but I don't understand the "chill out" comment. The basis of discussions I have seen regarding the transfer payments and the justification thereof is that they are used in football, and are extremely large. I also thought they were paid by individual teams and their owners. You have brought in the concept that the league as a whole should pay the fees, since the whole league reaps the rewards of having a Russian player grace us with his presence. But in football the leagues do not pay transfer fees, the clubs do, so I don't understand the difference.

As I have mentioned before, I'm not overly bright, and require enlightenment from someone familiar with the concepts.

Relax dude, no one cares for your sarcastic poems here. I never really compared hockey transfers to soccer transfers. If you want to compare NHL to something else the closest comparison would be NBA, which clubs pay buyout fees if the want to get a player from Europe who is under contract. The buyout fees are apporximately 2 times more than the annual salaru of the player in that particular club. But once again, this is hockey, not basketball, it has its own details which needed to be considered. One thing is for sure. 150G's for any player outside of first round of draft is BS.Why 150 and not 500 for example? Because that is convinient for NHL and fans like you, who don't care about Russian hockey for instance.

 

[jekoh]

As I said, the NHL clubs will not negotiate player by player with you, it sets a terrible precedent and one that just is not going to happen.

Montreal. CSKA. Kostsitsin.

 

[Siberian]

And when yongsters of Svitov's caliber, let alone the next Kovalchuk, Overchkin, or Malkin figure out this new economic reality of yours (with healthy advice from NHL agents) and start refusing to sign long term deals that tie them up past 18 or 20 yo, and start leaving for the NHL with no contractual obligations and no transfer fees at all to the RSL, then what.

Remember, these players aren't cattle. They aren't the property of the RSL team. Previosly, with the IIHF transfer deal in place, they would be willing to sign a longer term deal, knowing that they had an out. Will they still be willing to do that now?

Players like Svitov and Chistov are being tricked by their NHL agents, it is really hard to make a decision by yourself when you are 17 year old boy. I really doubt they know what they want. Look at Chistov, NHL club took him, used him, sucked all the blood out of him and spit him out. He would have been better off staying in Russia until 22 and develop into a good solid player. Now his future is uncertain.

 

[kdb209]

The sponsor will simply refuse to pay for their development (the parents can't afford the equipment, travel, etc) while the players are developing, and will have the players locked up long before they are at a draft-eligible age, to ensure that when the player is drafted and transfers to the NHL, the RSL team will have him under contract and will demand payment, regardless of what stage the player's at.

They're not cattle, but they're vulnerable. If they're told they're good enough to justify an NHL team paying a fee, why do they care if they lock up with a Russian sponsor willing to provide for him and his family while developing him as a player?

Make no mistake, they'll be under the thumb of their patrons at a much younger age.

But if NHL teams are not paying those fees, and he sees his path to a more profitable future blocked.

Or, as you noted, he is vulnerable, he is being forced to sign a contract on onnerous terms as a condition for employment, and he may very well be a minor to boot - all of which may be used as grounds for a US court to invalidate the contract (or at least make it uninforceable), allowing the player to sign with an NHL team, leaving the RSL team with no transfer fee and no legal recourse.

 

[blitheringidiot8]

I have read these post too long. This has nothing to do with Russian Hockey. This has to do with economics. Once the RSL starts to see players leaving with out any sort of compensation, they will change their tune. How long until Malkin gets smuggled out of Russia because Pittsburgh or his agent want to see him in the NHL? It happened with Zherdev so you cannot say it won't happen. Also don't throw that BS about Zherdev not being under contract. He was.

Now that the new CBA is in place, NHL clubs only have two years to retain the rights to their players. This increases the urgency to get players of Malkin's potential over to the NHL.

This agreement makes the Russian fans happy because they have become eliteist since the lookout. Most of the NHL's best players went to the RDL during the lookout. It is the second best league in the world. Read that again ... SECOND best. Do you think players like Malkin want to play in the second best league in the world? I am sure they want to play in the best league in the world which, oh my god, is the NHL. (I would also like to note that I have been to Russia and attended four RSL games there in the late 90's. I have also been to many AHL games. I think the AHL is a better league than the RSL.)

What type of endorsement deals do RSL players get? Pierogis? Vodka? Do they get their face on a can Galumpki? In the NHL the potential earnings far exceede a players salary.

So my comrade, it is only a matter or time before the RSL begins eating crow. This is a huge mistake not only now but for the future of all young Russian players. No more first round draft picks unless that player is an exceptional talent.

 

[Deleted member 3032]

I think in the long run no IIHF deal involving Russia will be bad for them. We (the NHL) are screwing over Russia, I agree with that, however I think things will be worse with no IIHF deal. Highly touted youngsters will more often not sign deals taking them past 18-20 at the repeated advice of more and more greedy agents, telling them of how much money they could earn in the NHL.

I do feel bad for Russian fans, though. They could've watched Fedorov, Bure, Mogilny, etc play in their home, instead of having to watch them go over to North America.

EDIT: I think the maximum and minimum should be higher, personally. I think the maximum for the 1st overall pick should be around $1.5M or $2M, quickly go down to around $900k - $1.2M at the #5 pick, and then continue to go down in a similar manner as the NHL's proposed system, except with a minimum of maybe $300k. However, for such a system to work in the NHL will probably take a little bit of time for teams to be more financially secure. With a cap in place, I think teams should be able to afford this type of payment system for their overseas players once the financial situation starts working itself out.

 

[Timmy]

But if NHL teams are not paying those fees, and he sees his path to a more profitable future blocked.

Or, as you noted, he is vulnerable, he is being forced to sign a contract on onnerous terms as a condition for employment, and he may very well be a minor to boot - all of which may be used as grounds for a US court to invalidate the contract (or at least make it uninforceable), allowing the player to sign with an NHL team, leaving the RSL team with no transfer fee and no legal recourse.

I really shouldn't comment, as it would come off as sarcastic poetry.

However, it would be unlikely that a U.S. court decision would have much impact on a contract signed in Russia between two Russian parties, with the parents and an independent legal advisor signing off on it as well.

Anyways, it would be foolish to think that he would be exploited by the Russian system in any way that is worse than how they are being exploited by the NHL and the agents today.

 

[Siberian]

And when yongsters of Svitov's caliber, let alone the next Kovalchuk, Overchkin, or Malkin figure out this new economic reality of yours (with healthy advice from NHL agents) and start refusing to sign long term deals that tie them up past 18 or 20 yo, and start leaving for the NHL with no contractual obligations and no transfer fees at all to the RSL, then what.

Remember, these players aren't cattle. They aren't the property of the RSL team. Previosly, with the IIHF transfer deal in place, they would be willing to sign a longer term deal, knowing that they had an out. Will they still be willing to do that now?

Officially, the young players are not the property of RSL teams but technically they are. Players are developed in hockey youth schools which are funded by RSL clubs. Famous schools are Dynamo, CSKA, Lokomotiv, Avangard. Young players get hockey equipment provided, practice, ice time, coaching, being fed etc at no charge in those schools. This is an old Soviet system, but right now it is the only system that can work in Russia, only handful of people can send their kids to hockey school and pay themselves. Someone must pay the bills. If you are Dynamo and developed a crop of players where there is one Ovechkin and two Afinogenovs and 300 other no name players and then NHL takes the best then who is going to fund this hockey school anymore? Dynamo? Why would they do that? A fair compensation should be in place, otherwise this is not going to work for Russian hockey

 

[Sixty Six]

Officially, the young players are not the property of RSL teams but technically they are. Players are developed in hockey youth schools which are funded by RSL clubs. Famous schools are Dynamo, CSKA, Lokomotiv, Avangard. Young players get hockey equipment provided, practice, ice time, coaching, being fed etc at no charge in those schools. This is an old Soviet system, but right now it is the only system that can work in Russia, only handful of people can send their kids to hockey school and pay themselves. Someone must pay the bills. If you are Dynamo and developed a crop of players where there is one Ovechkin and two Afinogenovs and 300 other no name players and then NHL takes the best then who is going to fund this hockey school anymore? Dynamo? Why would they do that? A fair compensation should be in place, otherwise this is not going to work for Russian hockey

Then develope better players. Don't make the N.A. teams pay for the players that didn't develope

 

[Ola]

I do not understand why Swedish, Finnish federations even get any money?

I do understand where you are comming from. You are right that one of the biggest diffrences between Russia and for example Sweden is the EU.

The biggest diffrences isn't however rules ect. In Sweden a young kid like Malkin would never sign a 5 year contract with his club team, never. He would have a agent that would get him a 1 year contract with another team. Teams in Sweden probably have allot more costs then teams in Russia inorder to produce a hockey player and in all fairness should get about 10x the amount russian team gets. Skates, sticks and icetime are allot cheaper in Russia then Sweden.

But they also know unless they sign a deal kids in Sweden would only sign 1 or 2 year contracts and then go for free to the NHL.

While Russian teams knows that they can put allot more pressure on a young kid and goon him into signing long term contracts and then demand what is market value for him. They talk about costs they have that western teams don't have ect. That is just pure propaganda and BS.

The bottomline is that if Russia wants to get market value from their players they have to develop a league in russia that are atleast as attractive as the NHL for young players. Its impossible to have a system where players wants to leave and play else where but they aren't allowed because their club teams wants 10 million USD in transfer money. It doesn't work in the 21st century. If thoose schools have to be paid they should sign contracts with the kids, go to our school and pay us 5% of you income the next 10 years or something like that.

 

[Timmy]

I never really compared hockey transfers to soccer transfers.

True, but some of your compatriots are.

 

[Ola]

But if NHL teams are not paying those fees, and he sees his path to a more profitable future blocked.

Or, as you noted, he is vulnerable, he is being forced to sign a contract on onnerous terms as a condition for employment, and he may very well be a minor to boot - all of which may be used as grounds for a US court to invalidate the contract (or at least make it uninforceable), allowing the player to sign with an NHL team, leaving the RSL team with no transfer fee and no legal recourse.

Please, if Tom Cruise is shooting a motion picture in the USA and then half way through it decides to go to Russia and participate in a russian movie he could be sued in the US right?

Then if Cruise would go to the supreme court in Russia and get his contract with Warner Bros invalidated would he then be off the hook in the USA? No.

 

[Galchenkel]

In the Russian hockey system all the spendings when a player is developed are carried out by his hockey club, not by players parents, unlike in N. America and Europe. For an average Russian it is unbearable burden to pay for the hockey equipment, coaches, ice time. Taking a player like Datsyuk for $150,000 is what has hurt Russian hockey in the past decade. That is why Russia should never sign this fake NHL-IIHF deal, they should be able to deal with NHL clubs directly.

Don't tell me that Datsyuk's elder club spent $150 000 to pay his developement!! If the player should be allowed to play wherever in the world.

 

[kdb209]

Originally Posted by kdb209
But if NHL teams are not paying those fees, and he sees his path to a more profitable future blocked.

Or, as you noted, he is vulnerable, he is being forced to sign a contract on onnerous terms as a condition for employment, and he may very well be a minor to boot - all of which may be used as grounds for a US court to invalidate the contract (or at least make it uninforceable), allowing the player to sign with an NHL team, leaving the RSL team with no transfer fee and no legal recourse.

Please, if Tom Cruise is shooting a motion picture in the USA and then half way through it decides to go to Russia and participate in a russian movie he could be sued in the US right?

Then if Cruise would go to the supreme court in Russia and get his contract with Warner Bros invalidated would he then be off the hook in the USA? No.

Yes and No.

If Tom Cruise gets his contract invalidated in a Russian court, he (and the Russian company that encoraged him to break the contract) could still be sued in a US court, but any judgement from that US court would not be enforceable in Russia. Warner Bros could get a judgement against the Russian company, but have no legal recourse to collect. They could however sue and collect from Tom Cruise if and when he returns to the US.

Similarly, if a Russian prospect gets a US lawyer and sues in US courts to get his RSL contract invalidated, he would be free to sign with an NHL team. The RSL team could sue both the player and NHL team in the Russian courts, but not in the US courts. They might get a judgement against the player/NHL team but would have no legal means to collect - they could not enforce the judgement in US courts. They could not get injunctive relief to prevent the player from signing a contract with the NHL team and they could not collect damages from the team. All they could do was possibly enforce a monetary judgement against the player if he ever returned to Russia.

 

[Levitate]

umm, despite the recent NHL lockout with the owners crying poor...a lot of owners in the NHL make a lot of money and in general the NHL is just as much a plaything as Russian teams are to their owners. There's money behind the NHL, don't assume there isn't...and it isn't so special that the russians could buy the NHL, so what? There was an attempt to buy the NHL during the lockout, remember? there's lots of people with lots of money in this world.

(who's backstopping the Blues, a glorified dollar store? The Wings are propped up by Pizza?).

it makes no difference where the money comes from as long as the money is there.

as for russians not caring about the NHL...well honestly, fine...if they really don't want to come to the NHL then don't. i'm not saying that as "eff you then", i'm just saying if it's really not what they want, then they shouldn't do it.

but i think it will be interesting to see what young russian players do...i see people like you, siberian, saying that these players really don't care about the NHL at all and would rather stay in Russia...well, let's see how it goes. I am curious as to whether this is really true or if some players truly want to play in the NHL.

 

[SENATOR]

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[SENATOR]

Well, from what I've been reading, the RSL makes and has far more money than the NHL, which is fairly bushleague in comparison (who's backstopping the Blues, a glorified dollar store? The Wings are propped up by Pizza?).

It is, I should think, us that should be worried about all of the world's best players wanting to hoist the RSL Cup, rather than the now-inconsequential Stanley Cup, given the safe, tax-free and coddling environment the new Russia offers.

The NHL will be forced to ice has-beens not good enough to play in Europe while we look on in envy as their fans get to watch games for as little as five dollars a ticket and see pure un-capped entertainment that only a truly free and stable capitalist society like Russia can provide.

Meanwhile, in Vancouver, we'll be forced to shell out a hundred bucks a pop to watch Corey Schneider backstopping Linden, Allen, and Butcher.

Perhaps I'm over stating things, as the RSL may not even want the slow plodders that North America produces with its rinky-dink mom-and-dad funded leagues, and we can continue to see players that we've been lulled by Don Cherry into thinking are actually world class.

All the players with true heart and grit are brought up in a government or corporate controlled environment in Russia, and that's why they will be the envy of the hockey world before the end of this decade.

Before Sens came to town I was a Canuck fan. That team in 1991-1994 had only one decent player............Pavel Bure. The rest was just ...........how I better put it. No skills fiesta. Though, Martin Gelina and Trevor Linden could play on my forth line. The only thing to make you feel better. Toronto with Andreichuk, Clark, Gilmour and Borshevsky were even worse. At least in Vancuver they had someone like Bure, who could play hockey.

 

[hockeydadx2*]

So far the only side which bent a little is NHL, so saying that Russians will accept peanuts NHL is offering right now is not the situation here. With the oil price at about 67 bucks a barrel I guess the situation in Russia overall and in Russian hockey will improve and you have to hurry up buying Malkin because the prices for players are also growing.

Peanuts? Really? Is the Russian economy so good that $880,000 for Malkin is peanuts? Geez, I had no idea Russia was so well off.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Peanuts? Really? Is the Russian economy so good that $880,000 for Malkin is peanuts? Geez, I had no idea Russia was so well off.

I think that some of them are drinking from the same water as the people who thought that Tbo would bring a first line player . . . as the ones who are counting the first round draft picks and/or first line players that Witt is going to bring. Delusion may be a nice party game but eventually reality sinks in. Just wait and see what the final outcome of this will be. I have a sneaking suspicion that those who think that NHL clubs are going to be sending $3, $4, $5, $10 million for a player are in for a fairly rude awakening. It may take a year to come, I would guess far less though, but the train is heading their way. The same train that ran over the NHLPA.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

For what it is worth, from another board, a local radio station is reporting that the Pens have found a loophole and are exploring it to bring Malkin right away for zero dollars in compensation:

http://discuss.pittsburghlive.com/viewtopic.php?t=55348&sid=aaa1712d6cb1e1efc417a1dd25b23e03

Apparently it is that two week notice to leave any job part of Russian Labor law.

They would give zero compensation to the Russian League for Malkin
If it works out that way, brilliant move saying no to that IIHF agreement Russians. In any event it must be a serious issue if the Pens are exploiring it.