Iginla vs Selanne

[seventieslord]

If selanne has a small but clear edge, why wouldn't everyone vote for him?

No reason at all. I think that was what jc was trying to get at though. you'd think that with them being as close as they are, there would be more "swing voters" who could go either way, but not in this case. So it is closer than 22-3 makes it look.. 22-3 is what you'd expect to see in a "Sakic vs. Mikita" thread.

I'm all for adding more modern players to the top 100 list. It seems like everything after 1980 is devalued for some reason. But who are the beat candidates to add? Pronger, Crosby, and ovechkin are almost givens at this point. Who else? Langway and Mark Howe? I think Selanne was a bigger star than Oates, but do you add him over Gilmour?

You can't add that many of these guys because you don't want to overvalue modern guys.

Edit: IMO, belfour is just as much of a must-add as pronger. Dump hainsworth and add belfour.

I would unfortunately not be able to find room for Langway, and most likely Oates too. Gilmour, my favourite of all-time, is in tough. Mark Howe, Crosby, Ovechkin, absolutely. Pronger for sure. I would love to find room for both Selanne and Belfour. Even if they are better than, say, Hainsworth and Francis.

I can think of a dozen guys I'd drop to make room, but I don't want this to turn into one of those threads.

 

[Seanconn*]

No reason at all. I think that was what jc was trying to get at though. you'd think that with them being as close as they are, there would be more "swing voters" who could go either way, but not in this case. So it is closer than 22-3 makes it look.. 22-3 is what you'd expect to see in a "Sakic vs. Mikita" thread.



I would unfortunately not be able to find room for Langway, and most likely Oates too. Gilmour, my favourite of all-time, is in tough. Mark Howe, Crosby, Ovechkin, absolutely. Pronger for sure. I would love to find room for both Selanne and Belfour. Even if they are better than, say, Hainsworth and Francis.

I can think of a dozen guys I'd drop to make room, but I don't want this to turn into one of those threads.

yeah, please no...

It's Selanne vs Iginla, not Selanne's place in our top 100 list.

I'm actually kinda surprised with all the votes for Selanne thus far, figured it would be a lot closer.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Very good question. Hopefully for tonight at least Iginla out duels Selanne

There are certain things Selanne has an edge over Iginla in (Speed) and some areas where Iginla has a lead (Physical play). I really like both players (but find my self not liking Selanne the more he kills my Flames). I have broken down the players Goals, Points and Games Played since Iginla started in the league. At the beggining of his Career Selanne was killing Iginla in Goals and Points but once Iginla peaked the scale started to tip. The numbers are very similar however.

Goals:

Iginla: 21,13,28,29,31,52,35,41,35,39,50,35,32,36
Selanne:51,52,47,33,33,29,28,16,40,48,12,27,27,28

Totals: Iginla 477 Selanne 471
Season winners: Iginla:7 Selanne:7

Very very close

Points:
Iginla: 50,32,51,63,71,96,67,73,67,94,98,89,69,75
Selanne:109,86,107,85,72,54,64,32,90,94,23,54,48,75

Totals: Iginla: 995 Selanne:993
Season Winners: Iginla 6 Selanne 6 Ties 2

Very Very Similar numbers again

Now in terms of games played during this span:
Iginla:1101 Selanne:994

So Selanne has put up very similar numbers to Iginla while playing 100 less games. You can make an argument that yes Iginla played more games and has the same amount of goals and points but playing in those games has to be a factor in favor of Iginla as well. His ability to stay healthy during his whole career is an asset not a flaw. You could also argue that Teemu was able to put up more PPG than Iginla (1 to 0.9).

If we rank their numbers from 96/97 from best seasons then we get the following:

Iginla wins 9 times, Selanne wins 4 times and they both tie once.
I know Iginla is very inconsistent at times but 10 straight 30 goal seasons is the reason why I take him. From 96/97 till now Selanne has only 5. Yes Selanne had a monster rookie season but he has never come close to matching those numbers since.

Selanne would have 3 more 30-goal seasons if he had not missed so much time the last 3 seasons. Iginla had one season where he missed a significant amount of time due to injury and even then, he still played 70 games.

Due to his physical style (especially early in his career), Iginla will never match the numbers Teemu put up in his late-30s. As a result, his career stats will not match those of Selanne when all is said and done. Regardless, Selanne is the better player.

 

[Merya]

How on earth are Crosby and Ovy "definitely in" after 5 seasons?
Maybe in 5 more years, if Ovy rebounds and Crosby can stay healthy.
Bit of a doublestandard there about very old guys and really new guys.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Where does ovechkin need to rebound to? He was 1st in even strength scoring and 4th overall when his team decided to rest him for the playoffs.

6 seasons is long enough to tell how good these players are. It's as long as guy lafleur was on top - of course he has far more playoff success than both

 

[Merya]

Where does ovechkin need to rebound to? He was 1st in even strength scoring and 4th overall when his team decided to rest him for the playoffs.

6 seasons is long enough to tell how good these players are. It's as long as guy lafleur was on top - of course he has far more playoff success than both

Alexander Ovechkin Washington Capitals 74 29 48 77 +22 41
Teemu Selanne Anaheim Ducks 67 28 47 75 +5 42

So six seasons in at what should be his prime, 25, he's a shoo-in. And the 41 in June dude with better ppg this season is not?

10+ years of career is about the minimum for me. Its like yeah maybe Usain Bolt will win in WC this year and in Sochi Olympics, but well...he'll actually have to win them first. Let Ovy and Crosby play 10 years before you're shoving them to top 100 or HHoF or whatnot.

 

[RorschachWJK]

haha, infractions. Temporary one I guess for now, it was taken away. I have to stay away from the main boards and avoid those "so and so is better than him because the 1980s was easy" threads. Sometimes I think it's just entrapment!

Heh, I can think of a certain very active poster from Sweden who usually chimes in in those types of threads. I am sure you're familiar with the scenario.

This is obviously about NHL play, but if people glanced at best-on-best international play, the poll should become even more of a landslide.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

Selanne. I have a feeling as time goes on, Selanne will be held in higher regards. I think he still has a few good seasons left in him if he's up for it.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Selanne. I have a feeling as time goes on, Selanne will be held in higher regards. I think he still has a few good seasons left in him if he's up for it.

I should hope so, because this time last year, HOH was claiming his career was analogous to Ilya Kovalchuk's.

 

[Epsilon]

Selanne is actually one of the most underrated players of his era, both while it was actually going on (he received only a fraction of hype/press many of his contemporaries did in the 90s, despite outplaying/producing many of them), and in retrospect. This is particularly true when he gets compared unfavorably with players who chose to sit out or retire rather than play through injuries as he did, and thus have better GPG/PPG numbers that are so beloved on the main board and poll board.

 

[IggyFan12]

Heh, I can think of a certain very active poster from Sweden who usually chimes in in those types of threads. I am sure you're familiar with the scenario.

This is obviously about NHL play, but if people glanced at best-on-best international play, the poll should become even more of a landslide.

I may be way off basis here but I think Iginla has had the better international career. World Junior Gold Medal while winning Tournament top forward. Iginla then next year helped Canada to World Championship gold. A tournament not regulary won by Canada especially in the 90s. Then he followed that up with a 2002 Olympic Gold Medal where he got 2 goals and an assist in the Gold Medal game. Along the way Canada defeated Selanne and Finland in the quarterfinals(dont remember think it was quarters). He then followed that up with a 2004 World Cup Championship playing on Canada's first line and beating Finland in the Gold Medal game. Fast forward to 2010 where he wins another Olympic GOLD medal assisting on the "Golden Goal". 2 Olympic Gold Medals is very very impressive. Selanne has yet to win Gold in the Olympics or World Championship. Iginla and Forsberg are the only 2 forwards with 2 Olympic Gold Medals and at least 800 Nhl Points. (I may be wrong on this but they were the only 2 I could come up with in my head, if there are more just let me know.)

 

[revolverjgw]

Selanne and Gilmour are still very close though, and it really comes down to how much you value pure offense/ value a more well rounded player.

For me they key difference is playoffs... Gilmour is a playoff legend, 7th all-time in scoring while being fearlessly physical and great defensively. There are so many guys with clearly superior regular season resumes that I'd pass on for a beast like Gilmour.

 

[RorschachWJK]

I may be way off basis here but I think Iginla has had the better international career. World Junior Gold Medal while winning Tournament top forward. Iginla then next year helped Canada to World Championship gold. A tournament not regulary won by Canada especially in the 90s. Then he followed that up with a 2002 Olympic Gold Medal where he got 2 goals and an assist in the Gold Medal game. Along the way Canada defeated Selanne and Finland in the quarterfinals(dont remember think it was quarters). He then followed that up with a 2004 World Cup Championship playing on Canada's first line and beating Finland in the Gold Medal game. Fast forward to 2010 where he wins another Olympic GOLD medal assisting on the "Golden Goal". 2 Olympic Gold Medals is very very impressive. Selanne has yet to win Gold in the Olympics or World Championship. Iginla and Forsberg are the only 2 forwards with 2 Olympic Gold Medals and at least 800 Nhl Points. (I may be wrong on this but they were the only 2 I could come up with in my head, if there are more just let me know.)

Impressive, but you are talking about team achievements. A cup or a gold metal are that. Take a look at best-on-best tourney stats.

I don't think Ray Bourques greatness came from the single cup he got...

 

[JackSlater]

This is obviously about NHL play, but if people glanced at best-on-best international play, the poll should become even more of a landslide.

I find that the circumstances vary too much to compare players who played for different countries based on international play.

I'm wondering how much value Selanne should get for his seasons in Finland before he arrived in the NHL. Since he started so strongly, it isn't a huge stretch to assume that he was an elite player for a season or two earlier. For example in Selanne's 1992 season, he was first in goals by a large margin and tied for fourth in points. The players that were first and second in scoring were teammates, and the players in third and fourth in scoring were teammates as well. That's a pretty impressive season, and should probably add value to his career.

 

[heksagon]

I find that the circumstances vary too much to compare players who played for different countries based on international play.

I'm wondering how much value Selanne should get for his seasons in Finland before he arrived in the NHL. Since he started so strongly, it isn't a huge stretch to assume that he was an elite player for a season or two earlier. For example in Selanne's 1992 season, he was first in goals by a large margin and tied for fourth in points. The players that were first and second in scoring were teammates, and the players in third and fourth in scoring were teammates as well. That's a pretty impressive season, and should probably add value to his career.

True. He was dominant in Finland before coming to NHL. I believe that he got an contract offer from the Jets in 1991, but he wanted to play another season in Finland. He led his team to the Championship and then came to NHL the next season. If he would have came to the NHL a season earlier, he might have another 50+ goal and 100+ point season under his belt. But that's just speculation.

 

[tikkanen5rings*]

I may be way off basis here but I think Iginla has had the better international career. World Junior Gold Medal while winning Tournament top forward. Iginla then next year helped Canada to World Championship gold. A tournament not regulary won by Canada especially in the 90s. Then he followed that up with a 2002 Olympic Gold Medal where he got 2 goals and an assist in the Gold Medal game. Along the way Canada defeated Selanne and Finland in the quarterfinals(dont remember think it was quarters). He then followed that up with a 2004 World Cup Championship playing on Canada's first line and beating Finland in the Gold Medal game. Fast forward to 2010 where he wins another Olympic GOLD medal assisting on the "Golden Goal". 2 Olympic Gold Medals is very very impressive. Selanne has yet to win Gold in the Olympics or World Championship. Iginla and Forsberg are the only 2 forwards with 2 Olympic Gold Medals and at least 800 Nhl Points. (I may be wrong on this but they were the only 2 I could come up with in my head, if there are more just let me know.)

If you take a really good and long look at team Canadas, Finlands and Swedens rosters you can clearly see one is not like the others. So that makes Selannes Olympic record even more great. You can also take a look at the NHL teams where Foppa had his greatest success at his prime and then look at what Teemu had to work with.

 

[JackSlater]

If you take a really good and long look at team Canadas, Finlands and Swedens rosters you can clearly see one is not like the others. So that makes Selannes Olympic record even more great. You can also take a look at the NHL teams where Foppa had his greatest success at his prime and then look at what Teemu had to work with.

Iginla's nationality gave him a greater opportunity to win internationally, but Selanne's gave him a greater opportunity to stand out individually.

 

[IggyFan12]

To be fair yes Canada has had much better teams compared to Finland but it's not like Selanne hasn't had opportunity to win. When it was Canada vs USA in 02 and Sweeden vs Finland in 06 both Selanne and Iginla had equal chance to win the Gold. USA & Finland were undefeated in the tournament until the Gold Medal game. Iginla was the 2nd biggest reason why Canada won that game (The first being the immortal Joe Sakic) while Selanne was shut out by Sweeden. I'm not blaming Selanne as to why they lost but the key difference is he didn't win while Iginla did. Selanne has the modern record for most Olympic points but he has yet to win an International tournament. The 06 Finland team was dominate but ultimatly failed.

There is also no reason to think Iginla will wear down because of his style of play. He is every year the most fit Calgary Flame and the guy is currently 4th in the league in Goals and 6th in Points.

 

[Seanconn*]

Alexander Ovechkin Washington Capitals 74 29 48 77 +22 41
Teemu Selanne Anaheim Ducks 67 28 47 75 +5 42

So six seasons in at what should be his prime, 25, he's a shoo-in. And the 41 in June dude with better ppg this season is not?

10+ years of career is about the minimum for me. Its like yeah maybe Usain Bolt will win in WC this year and in Sochi Olympics, but well...he'll actually have to win them first. Let Ovy and Crosby play 10 years before you're shoving them to top 100 or HHoF or whatnot.

Yeah seriously, Selanne and Ovi are very similar players.

both with monster rookie seasons, then Selanne had a major injury in his second season... then a lockout shortened season... next full season he scores 40 goals and 68 assits, next season 51 goals for 109 points, then 52 goals the next season.

what has ovi done that is considered SO much better? win the Art Ross and Hart?

Selanne had little to no chance playing in the same league as Mario. and came pretty close in 97/98, but was injured again.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Mario had very little effect on selanne's scoring finishes.

 

[Seanconn*]

Mario had very little effect on selanne's scoring finishes.

in 1996/1997 he sure did. okay, so maybe Jagr has had a bigger effect then?

 

[The Saw Is the Law]

Difference:

 

[Epsilon]

There are few regular arguments on this board I hate more than "if Gretzky/Lemieux/Jagr/etc weren't in the league then..."

 

[Seanconn*]

There are few regular arguments on this board I hate more than "if Gretzky/Lemieux/Jagr/etc weren't in the league then..."

well really, if Ovi had to compete against Mario, he'd likely not win crap all either.

Ovi will likely turn out to be a better player than Selanne by the end of his career, but as of right now, he's not clear cut above him...

 

[canucks4ever]

well really, if Ovi had to compete against Mario, he'd likely not win crap all either.

Ovi will likely turn out to be a better player than Selanne by the end of his career, but as of right now, he's not clear cut above him...

Selanne spent a grand total of 3 years competing against mario, enough with the excuses already. Ovechkin won 2 harts and 3 lindsays, selanne was never on pace to win that amount of hardware even if you take lemieux and jagr out of the league. Ovechkin has lead the league in points per game 3 times, selanne has finished top 2 in ppg once. Ovechkin's playoff ppg is already way better too. Ovechkin has been competing against crosby, who is himself better than selanne and will end up as good as jagr if not better.