If you HAD to keep one, who?

[Henkka]

Nah, the organization had given Holland free reign to do his thing. I think that approach would be appealing to a quality GM candidate who would replace Holland. I don't want a guy in his mid 60s who's gone on record saying he doesn't want to do a rebuild lead a rebuild.

So, how are you explaining these rumoured disagreements between Ken Holland and Chris Ilitch about the team future direction?

A) Chris Ilitch will want a scorched Earth rebuild, a losing team with high overall picks and empty arena and Ken Holland goes against it by signing these Nielsens and Daleys, trying to keep the streak on?

B) Or, Chris Ilitch will want to the keep the team competitive, to sell their Arena, and Ken Holland on his real intentions would like more of a rebuild, but is signing these Nielsens and Daleys as an actions which will look like trying hard, but in reality he is rebuilding and just selling guys for futures, now 3 trade deadlines in-a-row?

Which one is easier to believe as an Owner vs. GM standpoint?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

What exactly was Holland doing as a manager from 2010-2017?

Yes he didn't trade away lidstrom or datsyuk or Zetterberg we got it, but in seven years is Larkin the best he accomplished?

If he could have only done better has he drafted top five then how do you claim Zetterberg or datsyuk as anything other than luck?

If he were any the GM of any other pro sports franchise who' best in seven years was dylan larkin he would gave have been fired long ago

 

[kliq]

There's no clear philosophy when drafting and then guys like Helm & Abby are kept far too long well after the value has dropped significantly.

Holland purposely went out and signed Neilsen and Daley to get back into the playoffs. We're well past the cap when you factor in LTIR. The clear intention was to compete for a playoff spot.

We are quite possibly the worst team in the league. I mean, we're really in the conversation. Holland had been a total failure these last 5 or so years. I'm no Blashill fan, I'm simply laying the failure at Holland's feet. He's the boss. He's the guy who said he'd never rebuild and then created an expensive roster that is without question one of the worst teams in the league.

Bring in a GM who is up to the task and then see what Blashill can do. Like I said before I'm not a Blashill fan, I'm simply willing to get new leadership and see how that plays out.

Plus if you get elite talent that will be much more enjoyable to watch than current mix of past their prime vets and young players who were largely reaches when drafted because our current GM thinks he's smarter than everyone else.

My expectation of a head coach is to bring out the best in the roster he is given. IMO Blashill doesn't come close to doing that. When he took over from Babs, I believe every single player minus 1 or 2 had something like a 15% drop in production.

As far as being the worst team in the league, if you are talking on paper I dont agree. I think on paper we are a mediocre team (ie. a team in the middle/on the lower end). I didn't agree with the Nielsen/Daley signings either, but that doesn't change my perspective when the question is Blashill vs Holland.

I believe that the goal Holland was given by ownership over the past 5 years was to keep the streak alive, I believe Blashill's goal over the past 4 years was to bring the most out of his players. With those being the goals, I think Holland did a much better job then Blashill. Now, if you want to question the goals/philosophies themselves, that is a different conversation that has been had in half the threads on this board.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Occam's razor suggests Ken Holland only started trading guys when the playoff steak ended. He was quite content to lose Hudler and Filppula for nothing to keep the streak alive. As soon as it was toast he started trading guys he knew he couldn't sign.

So Ken Holland isn't really dictating anything, he's merely trying to save face now that he has one of the worst teams in the league. If the steak was alive he would have kept just about everyone and wouldn't have any draft picks. Trading Tatar is the only proactive move he's made. He also had a track record of having made the fewest trades by far since the first lock out. It's not that hard to figure out.

Again, he's gone on record saying he had no interest in a rebuild. His actions in regard to blowing out the salary cap match this perfectly. He's only making trades because he's failed in his primary goal, ie making the playoffs.

The only things regarding the Red Wings that get published in the Detroit papers are what the organization wants publicized. So I don't worry too much about how the state of the franchise is being spun. Holland has failed spectacularly in rebuilding on the fly so it makes sense to try to spin it in a way that reflects positively on him.

 

[kliq]

Nah, the organization had given Holland free reign to do his thing. I think that approach would be appealing to a quality GM candidate who would replace Holland. I don't want a guy in his mid 60s who's gone on record saying he doesn't want to do a rebuild lead a rebuild.

You're saying this as fact rather then opinion. Do have a link to an interview where Illitch or Holland said this was the case?

 

[ElysiumAB]

Blashill.

I'm sick of bloated terrible contracts.

 

[Pavels Dog]

13-14 season, last wildcard spot.
14-15 season, we were 3rd in the division, but you need more context. We were closer to missing than the #2 spot in the division. We lucked out that the Atlantic was complete garbage that year, 2 points from having to go to tiebreakers for last WC spot. You can spin it as 100% of the season we were in the playoffs. It was still mighty close. Literally 1 less regulation win and we're out. I don't know about you but that's not solidly making the playoffs to me...

That's made up. 96+ points is almost never needed to make the playoffs. I mean both the year before and after we made it with 93 points. Just because it was a particularly difficult year to make the playoffs doesn't mean we were ever in danger of missing. We were fighting for the top spot in the divisions for 50-60 games, we finished stumbling but let me know when a team missed the playoffs with 100+ points and I'll admit it was "mighty close". The Atlantic has been significantly worse since that season which is the only reason Blashill even made it in '16.

A top possession team.... who still solidly missed the playoffs. Far worse skaters? You dream. Bozak, Kadri, Reilly, Phaneuf, PAP, JVR, Nylander. They had decent players. Some of whom are still around and doing great this season. It's not like our team was full of superstars in their prime. Probably because they got a guy like Matthews.

Yes they had [some NHL players]. Nylander played 22 games, JvR 40, Phaneuf (who isn't really very good) played 50, Bozak played 57 (and he's a 3rd liner pretty much), Kadri (their top scorer) had 45 points... for about 50 games they had ~.900 goaltending....
That roster was hot, hot garbage. For reference, Larkin and Z already have more points than anyone on the Leafs had that season. The thing is, everyone and their grandmother could predict a huge improvement for the Leafs based on the underlying stats of that garbage team. They outworked and outshot a lot of teams.
For the Wings though, there's nothing to indicate that Blashill would get much greater results with much better talent.

 

[Run the Jewels]

You're saying this as fact rather then opinion. Do have a link to an interview where Illitch or Holland said this was the case?

Oh it's a well established fact. Mike Illitch had always given Holland free reign. I don't have time to dig through the archives but there's been nothing to suggest Holland's hands are tied. His actions and words match perfectly. He has a 20 year history as GM. He was asked if he wanted to step aside so Yzerman could become GM and he said 'no thanks'. If that doesn't convince you I honestly don't know what would.

 

[ColdToiletSeats]

Keep Holland fire Blashill .. Any coach that doesn't start a goalie (mrazek) after a shutout is a f***ing idiot. He's done nothing with this team and never will. Babcock took shit players and got it done. Some might argue the leafs have better players but I bet if we had Babs and the leafs had Blash we would be in the playoffs and the leafs at the bottom. The coach is huge Bowman proved that, he took the worst players ever and won cups. Im so sick of everyone babying Blashill I'm gonna be as happy as a pig in poop when he gets Fired!

 

[kliq]

Oh it's a well established fact. Mike Illitch had always given Holland free reign. I don't have time to dig through the archives but there's been nothing to suggest Holland's hands are tied. His actions and words match perfectly. He has a 20 year history as GM. He was asked if he wanted to step aside so Yzerman could become GM and he said 'no thanks'. If that doesn't convince you I honestly don't know what would.

To go for it and win, yes. To re-build, no. Can I ask if you follow baseball? Back in I believe 2015, DD GM of the Tigers decided to sell UFA's at the trade deadline because the Tigers were not good, reports said that he and Illitch had major disagreements about this and shocker, DD was let go. Illitch was a win now type of guy, it was awesome, that is why he gave Holland free reign. I dont believe he ever gave Holland a green light for a re-build especially with the streak. As much power as Holland may have, don't be naive enough to think that ownership has zero say.

Does that mean Holland make no mistakes? Of course not. That's not my point here, my point is that ownership does have a say in the overall direction of a team.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

It's really hard to believe Holland had his hands tied by ownership. From 09 to the present, Kenny didn't act any different in regards to team building. Extreme loyalty to vets that resulted in horrendous contracts being handed out. The guy tried to give Brendan Smith a multi year extension less than a year ago. Anyone seriously think Chris Ilitch was the mastermind behind that offer?

No the most likely explanation is that Holland was given almost complete autonomy in how he managed the team and ownership trusted his judgement.

 

[Henkka]

It's really hard to believe Holland had his hands tied by ownership. From 09 to the present, Kenny didn't act any different in regards to team building. Extreme loyalty to vets that resulted in horrendous contracts being handed out. The guy tried to give Brendan Smith a multi year extension less than a year ago. Anyone seriously think Chris Ilitch was the mastermind behind that offer?

No the most likely explanation is that Holland was given almost complete autonomy in how he managed the team and ownership trusted his judgement.

So you believe that Chris Ilitch will want a rebuild and Holland is against it?

 

[WingedWheel1987]

So you believe that Chris Ilitch will want a rebuild and Holland is against it?

I think Ilitch didn't offer an opinion, one way or the other. He simply trusts Holland's judgement. Unfortunately that judgement isn't what it used to be.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

So you believe that Chris Ilitch will want a rebuild and Holland is against it?

No.

He is listening to his mgmt staff

 

[HIFE]

...I believe that the goal Holland was given by ownership over the past 5 years was to keep the streak alive, I believe Blashill's goal over the past 4 years was to bring the most out of his players. With those being the goals, I think Holland did a much better job then Blashill. Now, if you want to question the goals/philosophies themselves, that is a different conversation that has been had in half the threads on this board.

You also are stating opinion as fact. We've heard this argument recycled the last year, that Holland was just following orders. The excuses have gone as far as the sob-story that the streak was preserved to honor the dying wishes of Mike Illich. It's preposterous.

I believe the Illich's know next to nothing about ice hockey. You can't compare their declared passion/interest in baseball and DD getting fired to anything within the realm of the Red Wings.

It's more believable that as WW and RtJ are saying, Holland's hands aren't tied by anyone but himself.

 

[HIFE]

Occam's razor suggests Ken Holland only started trading guys when the playoff steak ended. He was quite content to lose Hudler and Filppula for nothing to keep the streak alive. As soon as it was toast he started trading guys he knew he couldn't sign.

So Ken Holland isn't really dictating anything, he's merely trying to save face now that he has one of the worst teams in the league. If the steak was alive he would have kept just about everyone and wouldn't have any draft picks. Trading Tatar is the only proactive move he's made. He also had a track record of having made the fewest trades by far since the first lock out. It's not that hard to figure out.

Again, he's gone on record saying he had no interest in a rebuild. His actions in regard to blowing out the salary cap match this perfectly. He's only making trades because he's failed in his primary goal, ie making the playoffs.

The only things regarding the Red Wings that get published in the Detroit papers are what the organization wants publicized. So I don't worry too much about how the state of the franchise is being spun. Holland has failed spectacularly in rebuilding on the fly so it makes sense to try to spin it in a way that reflects positively on him.

This can't be repeated enough. Holland's ability to judge players and his own staff is warped beyond repair. He actually thought the last two seasons this team could make the playoffs. But why on earth would that even be a good thing? I agree Tatar was the only proactive move, and it took 3 years to break down and admit failure!

From mediocre drafting, the inability to trade, a slew of poorly thought out UFA contracts, Holland's shortcomings have been dissected in detail. In no way should he be trusted to handle a rebuild that's been stalled and hamstrung by his own devices. Holland may have been good at some time but he's no longer the best man for the job.

 

[kliq]

You also are stating opinion as fact. We've heard this argument recycled the last year, that Holland was just following orders. The excuses have gone as far as the sob-story that the streak was preserved to honor the dying wishes of Mike Illich. It's preposterous.

I believe the Illich's know next to nothing about ice hockey. You can't compare their declared passion/interest in baseball and DD getting fired to anything within the realm of the Red Wings.

It's more believable that as WW and RtJ are saying, Holland's hands aren't tied by anyone but himself.

I'm not stating my opinion as fact, I find it odd that you are interpreting it that way. In the section you quoted from me, my literal first words were "I believe" which flat out means I am giving an opinion, not giving a fact.

So on that note, I will be clear and state again, the following is an opinion and not a fact.

I can't speak as to which arguments were or were not recycled last year as I just joined this board in December. What I can say though, is I just don't buy the narrative that you are selling. Too far fetched for me.

I work in business, and I work with many other business owners/managers etc. and every single business that I have every been a part of or worked with, the owner always gives the direction of the company. I don't believe that Holland is told who to sign, who to bring up, who to hire as coach, who to waive etc. by ownership. But, when you have an owner who has owned a team for 20+ years, I have a very hard time believing that the owner has nothing to do with the overall direction of the team. I believe that an owner will give a GM direction in the sense of "I want to win now" "I want to make the playoffs" "I want ticket revenue's at _______" "I want a re-build" etc. Then its the GM's job to take it from there. If Holland was going against ownership, I think he would have been fired years ago.

I will be the first one to admit that Holland has made mistakes, but I will also admit that that he has done a lot of good. Bottom line, I hate talking about Holland because this is what always happens, it turns into the same conversation over and over and over again. When this happens, it typically turns into everything Holland has done is bad and 100% on him, or he has done nothing wrong at all. Both are arguments that I don't believe. Like anything, I think the truth falls somewhere in the middle. I don't even specifically mean you here, I can just tell where this is going.

I really dont feel like getting into another senseless Holland debate, so if you think Holland had 100% control with zero direction from ownership, cool. I don't.

 

[Redder Winger]

I listen to Ken Holland's words.

He speaks about what he believes. He's not talking about what Chris Ilitch believes.
Sure, I think he could get some pressure.
But I've never got the sense that Holland was lying about his beliefs.

So I take him at his word that Holland doesn't want to rebuild because he doesn't want to lose his "winning culture" and because it takes 10 years or whatever.

 

[kliq]

I listen to Ken Holland's words.

He speaks about what he believes. He's not talking about what Chris Ilitch believes.
Sure, I think he could get some pressure.
But I've never got the sense that Holland was lying about his beliefs.

So I take him at his word that Holland doesn't want to rebuild because he doesn't want to lose his "winning culture" and because it takes 10 years or whatever.

He very well may believe that, but if ownership didnt, he wouldn't be doing it. its very possible that both Illitch/Holland wanted to keep the streak alive.

Who knows.

 

[Run the Jewels]

He very well may believe that, but if ownership didnt, he wouldn't be doing it. its very possible that both Illitch/Holland wanted to keep the streak alive.

Who knows.

In asking Holland if he would step aside to let Yzerman become GM, Ilitch let Holland determine the direction of the franchise. If you're going to suggest Holland is having his arm twisted the burden of proof is on you, because there's nothing in 20 years that fits that narrative.

 

[kliq]

In asking Holland if he would step aside to let Yzerman become GM, Ilitch let Holland determine the direction of the franchise. If you're going to suggest Holland is having his arm twisted the burden of proof is on you, because there's nothing in 20 years that fits that narrative.

I never once said that, I simply said ownership gives direction to the GM which I believe they do since its a business. I didn't imply one way or another if Holland/Illitch were on the same page.

There is no burden of proof on me because I truly don't care. I'll say the same thing to you that I said to HIFE, I really dont feel like getting into another senseless Holland debate, so if you think Holland had 100% control with zero direction from ownership, cool. I don't.

 

[Ulysses31]

Not sure if its both or neither.

Holland has made some terrible signings (helm,abby,neilson) recently.

That said he was being mule headed trying to keep the streak alive.

Now that pizza house opening year is over he made a very shrewd deal trading tatar for all those picks.

If holland has it it his stubborn head finally what a lot of peolpe on here had said for years; the team needs a rebuild..he may be the guy to do it.

 

[DetroitRed]

I think the question of who should go first just depends upon available and suitable potential replacements. I say so because I think the team would benefit from some new perspectives in both cases.

However... If I HAVE to pick one, then I think Kenny's ability and propensity to hand out bad contracts has a longer lasting danger to it than anything a coach could do.

Kenny hasn't turned the corner on reckless contracts since his so-called rebuild. Nielsen's contract is an example of that. So even though he's calling it a rebuild, the team will not recover under that kind of management. It can't recover until the reckless contracts end. Kenny's decisions, as they involve bad contracts, will likely even affect the team under the next GM.

Moreover, late last summer, my estimate was that the Wings would end up about 27th, give or take a position. That's about where most predictions had them. Coach Blashill got them to perform at or just slightly better than that level, and even with changes to the roster which have taken place since last fall, they are still in that vicinity. So, Blashill is performing as predicted with the team Holland wrought. He isn't the best coach in the NHL by a long shot, but his influence certainly hasn't been devastating like Kenny's.