If the Top 100 players All-time list is redone today, where does McDavid's career place him?

[edog37]

unless everyone’s point is that you are blindly trophy counting without any regard to judging an individual by the quality of that individual’s play.

In which case you keep piling up the evidence for us.

Conn Smythe is playoff MVP, so it is indicative of playoff performance. And the points stat directly relates to production in the playoffs. So it is based on facts & not feelings. In addition, Crosby is the Pens captain & led us to those championships. That too is part of the job description.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Conn Smythe is playoff MVP, so it is indicative of playoff performance. And the points stat directly relates to production in the playoffs. So it is based on facts & not feelings. In addition, Crosby is the Pens captain & led us to those championships. That too is part of the job description.

If you want to get technical about it 2009 and 2017 Malkin led them to the title and in 2016 it was Kessel.

Not a difficult argument to make that Crosby was not the best player on any of the 3 Cup wins

 

[Dingo]

If you want to get technical about it 2009 and 2017 Malkin led them to the title and in 2016 it was Kessel.

Not a difficult argument to make that Crosby was not the best player on any of the 3 Cup wins

good luck with that.

Crosby being dominated by Backstrom was turned into CRosby doing what was necessary defensively

 

[buffalowing88]

If you want to get technical about it 2009 and 2017 Malkin led them to the title and in 2016 it was Kessel.

Not a difficult argument to make that Crosby was not the best player on any of the 3 Cup wins

I don't have a dog in this fight but having seen 09 Malkin in the playoffs in person and just following him closely for gambling-related purposes as a dumb college kid, he was the one stirring the pot. Give me Malkin in the 09 playoffs over just about any post-season performance and I'm fine with the outcome. He was a monster. Crosby was good. But he was the 2A on the team that post-season.

In '16 I got stuck down at the beach for a couple weeks and would wander away from the gf and family to watch the playoffs and the bar down there would always play the Penguins games front and center. I remember a lot of players from that run, but Crosby never stood out. I get that he had several responsibilities to deal with on the ice and he led that team in GWG, but he never felt dominant to me. IDK...it felt like a year where he could have had the marquee run but he just didn't. The following year I was even less impressed. This is all relative, of course, but Crosby didn't take over in those three years like I would have expected.

 

[cupcrazyman]

McDavid might go down as the greatest player to never win a cup.

 

[cupcrazyman]

Edmonton Oilers Playoff History | 1980 - 2021

McDavid Oilers have won 1 playoff Round

 

[daver]

I don't have a dog in this fight but having seen 09 Malkin in the playoffs in person and just following him closely for gambling-related purposes as a dumb college kid, he was the one stirring the pot. Give me Malkin in the 09 playoffs over just about any post-season performance and I'm fine with the outcome. He was a monster. Crosby was good. But he was the 2A on the team that post-season.

Up until the SCF in 2009, Crosby was the Conn Smythe favourite primarily based on his head-to-head battle against OV in one of the marquee playoff matchups since the '05 lockout. His performance through the first three rounds was arguably the best since the lockout. He was more than "good" and as the #1C was facing harder matchups than Malkin.

Malkin won the Smythe with his performance vs. the Wings but it is generally acknowledged that the Wings threw everything into shutting down Crosby in the belief that their secondary players could outperform the Pen's secondary players (including Malkin). Even when Datysuk came back in Game 5 they put him on a line with Zetterberg.

This discussion is getting off track but there is something to be said about applying context. Unlike Crosby, McDavid had an Art Ross winning teammate on his line and is used almost exclusively as an offensive weapon to the detriment of traditional C defensive responsibilities. If he was carrying a line of 3rd liners/AHL callups like Crosby did in 2016 which allowed the Oilers to load up a 2nd line to create some depth, and was able to keep the other team's #1 line from producing, again like Crosby in 2016, the critique of McDavid's playoff resume would be lowered.

 

[danincanada]

Up until the SCF in 2009, Crosby was the Conn Smythe favourite primarily based on his head-to-head battle against OV in one of the marquee playoff matchups since the '05 lockout. His performance through the first three rounds was arguably the best since the lockout. He was more than "good" and as the #1C was facing harder matchups than Malkin.

Malkin won the Smythe with his performance vs. the Wings but it is generally acknowledged that the Wings threw everything into shutting down Crosby in the belief that their secondary players could outperform the Pen's secondary players (including Malkin). Even when Datysuk came back in Game 5 they put him on a line with Zetterberg.

This discussion is getting off track but there is something to be said about applying context. Unlike Crosby, McDavid had an Art Ross winning teammate on his line and is used almost exclusively as an offensive weapon to the detriment of traditional C defensive responsibilities. If he was carrying a line of 3rd liners/AHL callups like Crosby did in 2016 which allowed the Oilers to load up a 2nd line to create some depth, and was able to keep the other team's #1 line from producing, again like Crosby in 2016, the critique of McDavid's playoff resume would be lowered.

Datsyuk was playing on one leg so Babcock moved him to the wing. He mostly played with Hossa and Holmstrom before the injury. It doesn't help your case with them trying to shut down Crosby, it was more about Babcock trying to help Datsyuk be effective despite the injury.

I wish we could have had a healthy Datsyuk to go against Malkin cause Zetterberg did his part and got the best of Crosby again.

 

[daver]

Datsyuk was playing on one leg so Babcock moved him to the wing. He mostly played with Hossa and Holmstrom before the injury. It doesn't help your case with them trying to shut down Crosby, it was more about Babcock trying to help Datsyuk be effective despite the injury.

I wish we could have had a healthy Datsyuk to go against Malkin cause Zetterberg did his part and got the best of Crosby again.

It's a minor point that doesn't change the primary one; the Wings threw everything into shutting Crosby down.

 

[danincanada]

It's a minor point that doesn't change the primary one; the Wings threw everything into shutting Crosby down.

Stop exaggerating for effect.

It was mostly about Zetterberg at forward and Lidstrom (with Rafalski) on D, but Lidstrom wasn't exactly 100% either, having surgery a few days before the series started. I thought Crosby was more dangerous in '09 but still not very impressive. In '08 he looked overwhelmed, which is not unusual for a young players first Finals appearance. In '09 I felt it was more proof that he could be shut down if the elite defensive players were matched against him. He didn't really face any of those in the first 3 rounds and no elite goalies either.

 

[JackSlater]

Yes Detroit threw its best defence, ie Zetterberg plus hobbled Lidstrom, at Crosby in 2009. It made sense given that Crosby was much better than Malkin in the 2008 finals. That's pretty irrelevant in terms of where McDavid's career would rank on a top 100 list though.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Yes Detroit threw its best defence, ie Zetterberg plus hobbled Lidstrom, at Crosby in 2009. It made sense given that Crosby was much better than Malkin in the 2008 finals. That's pretty irrelevant in terms of where McDavid's career would rank on a top 100 list though.

Except it is relevant based on exactly what you just said. Much like Detroit throwing it all against Crosby defensively, teams do the same to McDavid and Draisaitl. They dare anyone else on that team to beat them and no one can

 

[JackSlater]

Except it is relevant based on exactly what you just said. Much like Detroit throwing it all against Crosby defensively, teams do the same to McDavid and Draisaitl. They dare anyone else on that team to beat them and no one can

The specifics of the 2009 finals are totally irrelevant to McDavid in every way. I'm sure that anyone reading this already knows that players get focused on in the playoffs to varying degrees. That people struggle to assess playoff performances is relevant to McDavid.

 

[daver]

Except it is relevant based on exactly what you just said. Much like Detroit throwing it all against Crosby defensively, teams do the same to McDavid and Draisaitl. They dare anyone else on that team to beat them and no one can

So Crosby, and all the other GOAT peers have produced in their careers to the level one expects based on their RS production.

In Crosby's case, and all the others, unless someone wants to point something out, did it without having to team up their two clear best forwards to the detriment of team depth.

 

[blogofmike]

So Crosby, and all the other GOAT peers have produced in their careers to the level one expects based on their RS production.

In Crosby's case, and all the others, unless someone wants to point something out, did it without having to team up their two clear best forwards to the detriment of team depth.

Crosby's been very up and down in the playoffs, and I believe it was CzechYourMath who noted elsewhere that starting from the 2009 Finals has 131 points in 132 games, with notably good performances against softer opponents and notably weak performances against stronger opponents.

Wouldn't you expect much better?

 

[bobholly39]

Crosby's been very up and down in the playoffs, and I believe it was CzechYourMath who noted elsewhere that starting from the 2009 Finals has 131 points in 132 games, with notably good performances against softer opponents and notably weak performances against stronger opponents.

Wouldn't you expect much better?

I don't know, why would you?

It's actually 128 points in 125 playoff games after the 2009 finals for Crosby.

There are only 47 players in the history of the NHL who have scored above 127 points in their whole NHL playoff career.
Out of those - only 14 of them have a higher career playoff ppg (career, ie, including their peaks) than Crosby does in that stretch of 125 games since 2009.

I think it's pretty impressive that if you cherry pick years outside of Crosby's peak playoff years and look at his playoff production and ppg, that it matches up to the very best production of the very best players of all-time.

Don't you? How much better do you expect?

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

So Crosby, and all the other GOAT peers have produced in their careers to the level one expects based on their RS production.

In Crosby's case, and all the others, unless someone wants to point something out, did it without having to team up their two clear best forwards to the detriment of team depth.

Not really though.

Crosby's postseason PPG is 1.09 vs a regular season PPG of 1.28.
McDavid's postseason PPG is 1.05, vs a regular season PPG of 1.41. A larger drop, but McDavid hasn't had his later career years to bring down his PPG yet.

Crosby's career playoff numbers are inflated by his 3 runs from 08-10 where he scored 77 points in 57 games.

Outside of those 3 years, he has 117 points in 114 games. Still damn good, but no better than McDavid's rates.

Crosby has also laid his fair share of eggs in series over his career:

2009 Finals: 3 points, -3
2010 MTL: 5 points, -1
2013 BOS: 0 points, -1
2014 NYR: 3 points, -2 including 0 points in games 5-7 blowing a 3-1 lead
2016 WAS: 2 points, -3
2016 Finals: 4 points, -1
2019 NYI: 1 point, -4
2021 NYI: 2 points, -2

My point isnt to knock down Crosby, just to show that any star looks bad if you use a fine enough comb

 

[MadLuke]

My point isnt to knock down Crosby, just to show that any star looks bad if you use a fine enough comb

Or if you remove some of the most important element, 4 stanley cup finals, 3 cup, 7 all time in playoff points (in the top 15, the only players without 80s, early 90s point is him and Beliveau I think).

I am not sure what the argument here, does people are arguing Crosby playoff should drag him down in all time ranking and if it does not, McDavid should not pay for is lack of playoff success has well ?

Has for any star can look bad with a fine comb, that would be really hard to do with Bourque, Lidstrom Beliveau or Gretzky I think, but if your point is all time can look bad in a small cherry picked window that would be true I think.

 

[K Fleur]

Yeah but what if you take away every game where Crosby scored a point? Bet his numbers look like shit.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Yeah but why if you take away every game where Crosby scored a point? Bet his numbers look like shit.

Ok, well taking away no games, his PPG drops by 0.20 in the playoffs vs regular season

 

[daver]

Not really though.

Crosby's postseason PPG is 1.09 vs a regular season PPG of 1.28.
McDavid's postseason PPG is 1.05, vs a regular season PPG of 1.41. A larger drop, but McDavid hasn't had his later career years to bring down his PPG yet.

Crosby's career playoff numbers are inflated by his 3 runs from 08-10 where he scored 77 points in 57 games.

Outside of those 3 years, he has 117 points in 114 games. Still damn good, but no better than McDavid's rates.

Crosby has also laid his fair share of eggs in series over his career:

2009 Finals: 3 points, -3
2010 MTL: 5 points, -1
2013 BOS: 0 points, -1
2014 NYR: 3 points, -2 including 0 points in games 5-7 blowing a 3-1 lead
2016 WAS: 2 points, -3
2016 Finals: 4 points, -1
2019 NYI: 1 point, -4
2021 NYI: 2 points, -2

My point isnt to knock down Crosby, just to show that any star looks bad if you use a fine enough comb

Are you sure you want to use the term "inflated" to define a portion of a player's career numbers? That makes no sense. You can knock down any player once you remove their "inflated" numbers.

If anything is inflated, it's McDavid's 2020 playoffs (actually "playin") against the #23 seed after a 3 month layoff.

 

[blogofmike]

I don't know, why would you?

It's actually 128 points in 125 playoff games after the 2009 finals for Crosby.

There are only 47 players in the history of the NHL who have scored above 127 points in their whole NHL playoff career.
Out of those - only 14 of them have a higher career playoff ppg (career, ie, including their peaks) than Crosby does in that stretch of 125 games since 2009.

I think it's pretty impressive that if you cherry pick years outside of Crosby's peak playoff years and look at his playoff production and ppg, that it matches up to the very best production of the very best players of all-time.

Don't you? How much better do you expect?

I started the period at Game 1 of the 2009 Finals, hence the additional 3 points and 7 games. He was very good up until that point.

It's not the topline numbers, it's those numbers in conjunction with the creaming of the soft matchups and the "eggs" that @BigBadBruins7708 posted. There's a hollowness to the overall numbers because Crosby has often vanished in some harder matchups.

McDavid hasn't had many playoff games yet, and he hasn't hit the highs of 2008 Crosby, or the lows of

Or if you remove some of the most important element, 4 stanley cup finals, 3 cup, 7 all time in playoff points (in the top 15, the only players without 80s, early 90s point is him and Beliveau I think).

I am not sure what the argument here, does people are arguing Crosby playoff should drag him down in all time ranking and if it does not, McDavid should not pay for is lack of playoff success has well ?

Has for any star can look bad with a fine comb, that would be really hard to do with Bourque, Lidstrom Beliveau or Gretzky I think, but if your point is all time can look bad in a small cherry picked window that would be true I think.

It drags them down to where I wouldn't put them above Beliveau or Bourque, despite being multi-time Hart/Ross winners.

 

[MadLuke]

Ok, well taking away no games, his PPG drops by 0.20 in the playoffs vs regular season

Which is similar in percentage to Ovechkin, Malkin, Yzerman, Mario Lemieux, and better than say Mike Bossy, is that special of a drop for a high volume, long career of playoff player ? None of the played named above are known for specially dropping their production in the playoff.

That drop stats can be quite influenced by when your volume of playoff game occur in your career (both in timing relative to you but league scoring change)

 

[daver]

Ok, well taking away no games, his PPG drops by 0.20 in the playoffs vs regular season

Still the best of his era. That's the point of meeting expectations.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Which is similar in percentage to Ovechkin, Malkin, Yzerman, Mario Lemieux, and better than say Mike Bossy, is that special of a drop for a high volume, long career of playoff player ?

That drop stats can be quite influenced by when your volume of playoff game occur in your career (both in timing relative to you but league scoring change)

Here's a thread I made last October - Playoff Scoring Relative to Expectations

It looks at how a player scores in the postseason, relative to what we'd expect based on their regular season output. Crosby is pretty much in line with expectations. Obviously that excludes the 2021 postseason, and that would push his numbers down slightly, but he'd be in the range of +/-5% of expectations - some big names in that range include Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, Jagr, Ovechkin, Lafleur, Clarke, Bossy, Malkin.

The main criticism I have of Crosby's playoff resume is his scoring drops off substantially after the 1st round.