If Orr started playing in todays NHL

[Sens Rule]

IMO, if we saw a year with Orr down to 'only' 90 points, Lidstrom would have a good chance of beating him for the Norris based on defensive play. Orr was unlike Coffey in that he was 'good' defensively, maybe even 'great' at times, but he was never Liddtrom's 'perfect' in that department.

Orr was regarded as being the best defensively as early as his second season in the NHL. By players, fans, coaches... basically everyone.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Green averaged a PPG for I think two seasons before this one. Lidstrom flirted with a PPG this season. I think Orr would easily surpass a PPG in today's NHL.

Positives for Orr would be the removal of the red line. This would be in his wheel house in making long passes and anticipating players breaking out. The increase in calling PPs in the Post lockout era would also help him. I think the less aggressive nature of the NHL, in terms of hooking, guys hanging on you would help him a great deal. I think he would take less penalties and not have to prove himself fighting lesser players like he did when he came up. At times he could be dirty though, like Pronger or Potvin and I think that would keep everyone honest with him.

I really think the NEW NHL post lockout is built for Orr, Gretzky and Mario to do even better than they did in their own eras. Even if they did not get the same number of points they would likely be even more effective being able to not worry about getting held and bear hugged, the removal of the red line, more PPs called.

One thing that has not been mentioned in the Gretzky thread is the hockey sense and anticipation that Orr, Mario and Gretzky had. What if it was EVEN BETTER than it was when they played. Now players play a very strict game, they are far more predictable in their actions in any situation. Would that make these 3 even better? Ripping apart the league even more because they intuitively know what everyone is going to do to an even greater degree? Or would it be the opposite, was some of their greatness being able to anticipate the random moves of all the other people on the ice, and with the stricter systems and less random moves by players not give them as much to take advantage of? I'd guess it would make them even more dangerous.

I agree with you that these changes would help Orr, especially if every other advantage Orr had stayed the same but it would not.

Orr was a great passer and rusher but there are so many great passers and rushers in todays NHL as well.

goalies are much better equipped, pun intended as well, to stop goal scoring as a re the teams playign in front of them.

There is no doubt that Orr's skill set and hockey sense would guide him in todays NHL but he simply would not be able to dominate in any way near the form he did in the watered down late 60's early 70's.

"Perfect storm" his peak would be around 90 points maybe close to 100 on occasion but not sure even how likely that would be in the 21st century NHL

 

[Trottier]

Orr was regarded as being the best defensively as early as his second season in the NHL. By players, fans, coaches... basically everyone.

Truth.

But, oddly, refuted here.

Orr was a great passer and rusher but there are so many great passers and rushers in todays NHL as well.

This sentence implies relativity between Robert Gordon Orr and the so called "many great passers and rushers in today's NHL".

There is none, whatsoever.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Orr was regarded as being the best defensively as early as his second season in the NHL. By players, fans, coaches... basically everyone.

Prove it. You can't...
As a sticky in this forum are some players' polls from the 70s and the only time Orr ever registered in a Player's Poll for "Best Defensive Defenseman" was in 1971 when he tied for first.

Lidstrom most recently finished 2nd as a 41 year-old and 1st as a 40 year-old. That's over 10 years beyond when Orr retired.

 

[Sens Rule]

Prove it. You can't...
As a sticky in this forum are some players' polls from the 70s and the only time Orr ever registered in a Player's Poll for "Best Defensive Defenseman" was in 1971 when he tied for first.

Lidstrom most recently finished 2nd as a 41 year-old and 1st as a 40 year-old. That's over 10 years beyond when Orr retired.

"I would say I've never seen a guy who did as much offensively and
defensively as much as that young man did."
-Gordie Howe - "Mr. Hockey"


"If Bobby Orr has a problem, it's that he has no fear. If nothing else
will do, I swear he'll use his head to block a shot."
-Gerry Cheevers, HOF goaltender

"He ought to get his name on the Vezina Trophy. He blocks more shots
than the goalies." - Phil Esposito, Bruin HOFer

"He's the first one up the ice and the first one back."
- Emile Francis, Rangers Coach

"I might as well enjoy it (Norris Trophy) now, because I expect it's
going to belong to Bobby Orr from now on."
- Harry Howell, NY Ranger - 1967

 

[Boxscore]

Revisionist history - Orr was never regarded as the greatest defensive defenseman of his era, while Lidstrom has been the unanimous choice for an entire decade.

Stop. Orr won 8 consecutive Norris Trophies in 9 full seasons. Lidstrom won 6 throughout a, what, 18-year career? Orr was just as good defensively as ANYONE in his era but his offensive game was just lightyears better it was like he was a man playing with children. Orr blocked shots, took the puck away from opponents with will, rarely lost a corner battle, checked as efficiently as any defenseman of his era and thought the game just as well as Lidstrom defensively.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Stop. Orr won 8 consecutive Norris Trophies in 9 full seasons. Lidstrom won 6 throughout a, what, 18-year career? Orr was just as good defensively as ANYONE in his era but his offensive game was just lightyears better it was like he was a man playing with children. Orr blocked shots, took the puck away from opponents with will, rarely lost a corner battle, checked as efficiently as any defenseman of his era and thought the game just as well as Lidstrom defensively.

I'm not denying Orr's offensive gap was far beyond Lidstrom's defensive edge, but if you think Orr is considered one of the best defensive defensemen of all-time, like Lidstrom is, you are fooling yourself.

Don't lump me into someone who thinks Lidstrom is better than Orr... I just think Lidstrom would have a fair shake at a few Norrises in Orr's 'off' years.

 

[Boxscore]

Orr was regarded as being the best defensively as early as his second season in the NHL. By players, fans, coaches... basically everyone.

Of course he was. He was like the Lidstrom of his era but better. Here is the difference between Orr and Lidstrom.

Lidstrom = Awesome offensively and never makes mistakes

Orr = Lidstrom + Elite offensively, plays physical, blocks shots and fights when needed.

 

[Sens Rule]

I'm not denying Orr's offensive gap was far beyond Lidstrom's defensive edge, but if you think Orr is considered one of the best defensive defensemen of all-time, like Lidstrom is, you are fooling yourself.

Don't lump me into someone who thinks Lidstrom is better than Orr... I just think Lidstrom would have a fair shake at a few Norrises in Orr's 'off' years.

It is pretty much common knowledge that everyone considered Orr the best DEFENSIVELY as well as offensively his whole career.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Of course he was. He was like the Lidstrom of his era but better. Here is the difference between Orr and Lidstrom.

Lidstrom = Awesome offensively and never makes mistakes

Orr = Lidstrom + Elite offensively, plays physical, blocks shots and fights when needed.

Any cursory glance of Orr shows he was no Harvey/Savard/Langway/Lidstrom when it comes to defense. He simply played the game differently; in a way which allowed him to dominate much more, but far from the guy you want as your ultimate defense on a PK with a 1 goal lead as the above are.

 

[Boxscore]

I'm not denying Orr's offensive gap was far beyond Lidstrom's defensive edge, but if you think Orr is considered one of the best defensive defensemen of all-time, like Lidstrom is, you are fooling yourself.

Don't lump me into someone who thinks Lidstrom is better than Orr... I just think Lidstrom would have a fair shake at a few Norrises in Orr's 'off' years.

Put it this way, Orr in his peak was better defensively than Lidstrom was because of the physical element that Lidstrom lacks. At the VERY LEAST, Orr was as good defensively as Lidstrom ever was during any of his Norris years.

And, if Orr and Lidstrom were both in their primes for a 10-year stretch run, Lidstrom would not steal a Norris from him. Orr never had "off years", he had a few years where he barely played any games because he could hardly walk, let alone skate. When he was healthy, Orr was DOMINANT. Hell, even in the 76 Canada Cup he was voted MVP of the tournament against the best talent in the world and he was playing on one knee and didn't even practice.

And I don't know what you mean by "a defensive defenseman"? Are you implying a defensive defenseman is someone who ONLY stays at home, plays the man and clears the porch? Because Orr did ALL of that as well as lead the rush and dominate offensively. Orr should not get the shaft because he was great offensively. If he wanted the puck, he simply took it from you. If that's not a testament to how superior Orr was defensively, I don't know what is. And, Orr's career +597 (2nd all-time behind Robinson) speaks for itself.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

It is pretty much common knowledge that everyone considered Orr the best DEFENSIVELY as well as offensively his whole career.

Then show me.

 

[Boxscore]

Then show me.

What do you mean, "show you"? Look at 8 consecutive Norris trophies in 9 full seasons. Look at a career +597. Read what Orr's peers had to say. Hell, read a few books and dig up as much footage as you can. What do you mean, "show me"? I don't get it.

"Show me" that Lidstrom is better defensively. He played twice as many years as Orr and has two LESS Norris trophies. His career +/- is less than Orr's. Show me footage of Lidstrom ever playing physical, throwing nice checks and dropping the gloves. I really don't understand the "show me" stuff.

In 100 years when Orr, Lidstrom and both of us are in the ground, all that will be left to "see" are the history books and Orr will be better than Lidstrom in every book.

 

[Sens Rule]

Any cursory glance of Orr shows he was no Harvey/Savard/Langway/Lidstrom when it comes to defense. He simply played the game differently; in a way which allowed him to dominate much more, but far from the guy you want as your ultimate defense on a PK with a 1 goal lead as the above are.

Hmmm every coach and GM EVER would love to have Orr on a PK with a one goal lead. As much any D-Man ever.

 

[Neely08]

The thing I hate about these discussions is this; without Orr or Gretzky in the first place, the game wouldn't have evolved in the same manner that brought us to the athletes we watch today.

That said, I envision a player with unsurpassed skating ability, far above and beyond his peers. One who dominates in both ends of the ice, while still being able to put up stats you'd expect from a superstar forward. It would be pretty amazing.

Gonna have to check out the 99 thread, too.

 

[Sens Rule]

Then show me.

You tell me better defencemen defensively than Orr form 1966-1976

 

[Boxscore]

You tell me better defencemen defensively than Orr

Here's the thing, it's impossible to do so and here's why:

1.) Someone would have had to be old enough to watch Shore, Harvey, Orr, Robinson, Savard, Stevens, Lidstrom and the rest. And, even then, it's only one person's view.

2.) There has to be a clear definition of "defensive defenseman". Do you mean this is a defenseman who prevents goals? If so, TOI and +/- would be a main factor. But people have different views of what makes a defenseman great defensively. Some prefer a physical type like Shore, Robinson, Stevens, Langway, Chelios and Pronger who make their opponents pay a toll when trying to score. Others prefer the technicians like Harvey, Savard, Niedermayer and Lidstrom who are extraordinarily sound and play mistake-free hockey. Some prefer the complete package types like Orr, Park, Potvin, Bourque and Fetisov. So, it comes down to personal preference. All of these guys mentioned are among the greatest defenders of all-time, and any of them would be a coach's choice to hop over the boards on the PK or to protect a 1 goal lead late in the 3rd.

The bottom line is there is a trophy that recognizes the best defenseman to play the position each year. And the fact is, Bobby Orr won more of them than anyone and played a lot less than any of those other greats I mentioned.

And I know this is hypothetical, but does anyone believe in their heart that IF Orr played 16 full seasons instead of 9, that he wouldn't have ended with at least 11-12 Norris trophies instead of 8? I mean, that would only have been 4 more in 7 additional seasons. When Orr was no longer healthy, here is a breakdown of the next 7 Norris winners:

Potvin x3
Robinson x2
Carlyle
Wilson

So, if Orr was healthy for those years, I would offer a guess that Potvin and Robinson may have snagged one or so each, MAYBE Potvin 2x. But there is no way on earth that a healthy Orr at age 31 and 32 would be losing Norris trophies to Randy Carlye and Doug Wilson. Hell, now that I really think about it, Orr PROBABLY would have won all 7 of them and ended up with 15 Norris trophies when it was all said and done. Because this man literally had a grip on the Norris the way Gretzky did with the Art Ross.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Put it this way, Orr in his peak was better defensively than Lidstrom was because of the physical element that Lidstrom lacks. At the VERY LEAST, Orr was as good defensively as Lidstrom ever was during any of his Norris years.

Harry Sinden (Orr's coach) would probably disagree with you. He said he'd rather have Bourque protecting a one-goal lead. And most here consider Lidstrom a bit better than Bourque in his own zone.

And, if Orr and Lidstrom were both in their primes for a 10-year stretch run, Lidstrom would not steal a Norris from him. Orr never had "off years", he had a few years where he barely played any games because he could hardly walk, let alone skate. When he was healthy, Orr was DOMINANT. Hell, even in the 76 Canada Cup he was voted MVP of the tournament against the best talent in the world and he was playing on one knee and didn't even practice.

Agree with you here, but that's because Orr lapped the field offensively and in puck possession. He was excellent defensively, but not ahead of the pack.

And I don't know what you mean by "a defensive defenseman"? Are you implying a defensive defenseman is someone who ONLY stays at home, plays the man and clears the porch? Because Orr did ALL of that as well as lead the rush and dominate offensively. Orr should not get the shaft because he was great offensively. If he wanted the puck, he simply took it from you. If that's not a testament to how superior Orr was defensively, I don't know what is. And, Orr's career +597 (2nd all-time behind Robinson) speaks for itself.

Orr's high career plus minus says something about his defensive ability, but more about his offensive ability.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

You tell me better defencemen defensively than Orr form 1966-1976

Why then were Burrows, White, Salming, laperriere, Seiling, Robinson, White, and Harper all voted ahead of Orr as "Best defensive defensemen" in coach's polls during the time you selected? I challenge you to find a similar list of defensive defensemen ahead of Lidstrom in the 00s.

In '71 Orr tied Arbour and Harris in a coaches' poll for "best defensive defenseman". Not exactly the highest endorsement there in terms of competition.

 

[Fedorov91*]

I say he becomes a two-way forward and has a career similar to, but better than Fedorov.

Thanks man! I needed a great laugh today!

When Bobby Orr was playing in the 70's the NHL was pretty much a bush league compared to the 1990's NHL talent (esp with the WHA in town and Top European Players playing in Europe)

Don't kid yourself - even after the 2005 lockout (along with Crosby) are just Canada's marketing ploy for Hockey.

I mean EVERY commercial in Canada (seriously like 80%) integrate Hockey in some way -really patheic - People are the best here though! Still Orr = Overrated

 

[Boxscore]

@ Devil: Interesting Sinden quote. That said, Orr was right up there with the best all-time in his end. If we're comparing him to Bourque, Lidstrom and the like in his own end, then he is in elite company. The bottom line is, Orr was the very best defenseman package in NHL history. He also played with intangibles that Lidstrom never has, such as physical play, great shot-blocking and the willingness to fight. I mean, is there any doubt that if you were starting a team from scratch and every player in hockey history was in their prime and available for draft, Bobby Orr wouldn't be the first defenseman you would take?

@ Rabbins: Very nice insight with the coach's polls, thanks for sharing. I'm sure there's some credence in that but those type of polls often reflect bias as well. The bottom line for me are Norris Trophies. They are undisputed. And, again, I will pose the same question to you as I did with Devil - which defenseman would you take first?

 

[RabbinsDuck]

@ Rabbins: Very nice insight with the coach's polls, thanks for sharing. I'm sure there's some credence in that but those type of polls often reflect bias as well. The bottom line for me are Norris Trophies. They are undisputed. And, again, I will pose the same question to you as I did with Devil - which defenseman would you take first?

Orr is the better all-around defenseman, by a fair amount, but Lidstrom was definitely better defensively - and has a fair chance at making a dent in Orr's 8 Norris trophies if they found themselves playing in the same era. That's all I have claimed.

 

[canucks4ever]

Prove it. You can't...
As a sticky in this forum are some players' polls from the 70s and the only time Orr ever registered in a Player's Poll for "Best Defensive Defenseman" was in 1971 when he tied for first.

Lidstrom most recently finished 2nd as a 41 year-old and 1st as a 40 year-old. That's over 10 years beyond when Orr retired.

In 1968 Orr finished 4th in hart voting and got 28 first place votes, do you really think this was based on his 31 points?

 

[Dreakmur]

Then show me.

In the 1971 NHL Coach's Poll, Bobby Orr was voted as the best defensive defenseman in the league.

Other results are here:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=679838

 

[RabbinsDuck]

In the 1971 NHL Coach's Poll, Bobby Orr was voted as the best defensive defenseman in the league.

Other results are here:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=679838

Let's not ignore he was tied with Arbour and Harris that year. Where would you rank them all-time defensively?