Line Combos: If Marleau plays in the top nine, which forward from 16/17 Leafs is pushed down?

[ToneDog]

No you can't predict a heat of the moment thing but there is more than just protecting Marner/Nylander.
Martin/Komarov etc. are putting pressure on the opposition D, Marner/Nylander/Bozak etc. aren't forechecking the same way. Also you can run around and clean hit guys all game. That doesn't need protecting. When the physical game ramps up though, who is answering the bigger clean hitting on our side. That's not gooning, that's solid physical play. When the scrums go on in the corner after the whistles, who is pushing back against guys like Wilson,Kassian,Gudbransson. We can't have our guys always pushed to the ice.
When there is no more contact in hockey, fine.

Excellent post.

 

[LeafSteel]

No you can't predict a heat of the moment thing but there is more than just protecting Marner/Nylander.
Martin/Komarov etc. are putting pressure on the opposition D, Marner/Nylander/Bozak etc. aren't forechecking the same way. Also you can run around and clean hit guys all game. That doesn't need protecting. When the physical game ramps up though, who is answering the bigger clean hitting on our side. That's not gooning, that's solid physical play. When the scrums go on in the corner after the whistles, who is pushing back against guys like Wilson,Kassian,Gudbransson. We can't have our guys always pushed to the ice.
When there is no more contact in hockey, fine.

Great post.

I think other teams are going to key harder on our young stars.

That's why I'm hoping Rychel can impress and crack the lineup. I think Martin is going to need help, and we don't even have Polak anymore for support.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Great post.

I think other teams are going to key harder on our young stars.

That's why I'm hoping Rychel can impress and crack the lineup. I think Martin is going to need help, and we don't even have Polak anymore for support.

Carrick is pretty physical for a smaller guy. Always in the middle of those scrums. Also Kadri doesn't mess around either.

 

[Mikeyg]

He isn't on the Matthews line so he can do those things, he is there because somebody on that line needs to do them. Especially fall down.

With two players like Matthews and Nylander on that line, the third wheel needs to:

* Be a speedy forechecker
* Be a work horse
* Be able to open up space by constantly engaging defenders and keeping them occupied
* Be a diversion in front of the net
* Have the stamina to play a high energy north-south game

With puck distribution what it is, that player's impact will come much more from what he does without the puck than with it. That's why Hyman fits. And since using some other forward there means moving Hyman to a role that relies much more on puck skills, it is better for roster management as a whole.

The beauty of Marleau is that he can do the above pretty well while still being a decent threat around the net.

Nith everyone knows these things, this isn't new material. These are all the classic "intangibles" that lots of players already do better than hyman. If you don't think that this is a cleary 2.0 then I don't know what to tell you. He can still do all of those things you listed and be effective on the 3rd or 4th line, he doesn't have to do them next to a world class talent. I would literally put any of jvr/komarov/marleau next to matthews before hyman. He simply does not have the talent to hang, nothing else matters. You can teach the skill guys to grind but you can never infuse plugs with skill they don't have. JVR is a bum defensively and is probably gone after this year, but i'd still rather have him fill that role over hyman any day. He must go!

 

[Nithoniniel]

Nith everyone knows these things, this isn't new material. These are all the classic "intangibles" that lots of players already do better than hyman.

Not on our team. He's our best forechecker, and our hardest worker, or up there. Even someone who dislikes him can't dispute that.

None of the five things I mentioned are intangible, by the way.

If you don't think that this is a cleary 2.0 then I don't know what to tell you. He can still do all of those things you listed and be effective on the 3rd or 4th line, he doesn't have to do them next to a world class talent.

I'll just copy the first line from the post you quoted: "He isn't on the Matthews line so he can do those things, he is there because somebody on that line needs to do them." The third wheel has a role focused on these things, and has the puck less than any other spot in our top 9. So trying to get a player as good as possible with the puck for that particular role is backwards.

I would literally put any of jvr/komarov/marleau next to matthews before hyman. He simply does not have the talent to hang, nothing else matters.

Nothing else matters? What matters more than anything is to get as much out of all lines combined. Not getting talent next to Matthews.

JVR doesn't work hard and isn't a good forechecker. Komarov's greatest value to us is his 5-on-5 defense, and we need that next to Kadri. I've addressed Marleau, and he wasn't here last season.

You can teach the skill guys to grind but you can never infuse plugs with skill they don't have. JVR is a bum defensively and is probably gone after this year, but i'd still rather have him fill that role over hyman any day. He must go!

We are talking roster management, not development. "You can teach skilled players to grind" doesn't matter one bit when we are talking using JVR on the top line.

If we put JVR on that line, we drastically weaken the Bozak line where he had a role that was perfectly tailored to him. We lose forechecking and board work, so Matthews and Nylander will have to do more of that. That means they'll spend more time on stuff like that, and less time doing things that they are elite on. To use JVR well, he needs the puck more, which means less puck for Matthews and Nylander.

There's a whole lot of effects beyond the infusion of skill you wanted.

 

[saltming]

As long as both Bozak & JVR are on the team that's exactly what the Marleau signing will do to this lineup in that Brown drops to the 4th line

Marner is stuck with these 2 until there gone because he has the engine to cover up a lot of ice and get them playing in the offensive zone a little more. Having these 2 is why Nylander is playing the wing as well & why Kapenen will start in the AHL because he doesn't require wavers & why there's a struggle to find a spot for Leivo.

The playoffs revealed something big about the matchup line in that Brown wasn't a fit. Good player but he fell short of having a good playoffs. In fact he was the weak link of that lines effectiveness thus why Marleau was singed IMO.

Hyman- Mathews- Nylander
Komorov- Kadri- Marleau
JVR- Bozak- Marner
Martin- Moore- Brown.

Next year is when things will change with both JVR & Bozak gone. Nylander moves to center, Hyman moves with him and Kapenen joins to form a line. Marner moves up with Mathews and it will be decision time of whom they find that fits best with these 2.

I'm telling you and everybody else Marleau was brought in to bump up the matchup line and help Kadri get to the next level. Brown as good as he is as tweener goal scorer he's limited in his effectiveness in that role. Marleua on the Kadri line will benefit the team in huge way towards the only stat that matters WINS.

Quoting you because I like your view on it.

 

[saltming]

On a chronic poor d team I think it would be hard to assert that Leo is superior in any way, defensively or otherwise, any claims otherwise is purely conjecture.

Leo's greatest strength is his agitation so maybe elite there but even that facet of his game is diminishing.

Grit is definitely part of his game bit he is also very good defensively.
His position ethics and play making are usually solid on the defensive side.
Elite might be a bit overboard but he is very good.

 

[saltming]

I don't think Marleau signed to the team to play defensive usage and not get to play with any of the stars.

I'd imagine a key part of the selling to get him to come to the Leafs was a chance to play alongside One or two of Matthews/Marner/Nylander.

To the bolded; i dont think it matters to him. His defensive game is just part of how he plays and at this stage of his career i dont know how important he feels putting up points will be.
As for playing with one of the big 3; maybe but being on a team and finally winning a cup would trump that.

 

[Mikeyg]

Not on our team. He's our best forechecker, and our hardest worker, or up there. Even someone who dislikes him can't dispute that.

None of the five things I mentioned are intangible, by the way.

I'll just copy the first line from the post you quoted: "He isn't on the Matthews line so he can do those things, he is there because somebody on that line needs to do them." The third wheel has a role focused on these things, and has the puck less than any other spot in our top 9. So trying to get a player as good as possible with the puck for that particular role is backwards.



Nothing else matters? What matters more than anything is to get as much out of all lines combined. Not getting talent next to Matthews.

JVR doesn't work hard and isn't a good forechecker. Komarov's greatest value to us is his 5-on-5 defense, and we need that next to Kadri. I've addressed Marleau, and he wasn't here last season.

We are talking roster management, not development. "You can teach skilled players to grind" doesn't matter one bit when we are talking using JVR on the top line.

If we put JVR on that line, we drastically weaken the Bozak line where he had a role that was perfectly tailored to him. We lose forechecking and board work, so Matthews and Nylander will have to do more of that. That means they'll spend more time on stuff like that, and less time doing things that they are elite on. To use JVR well, he needs the puck more, which means less puck for Matthews and Nylander.

There's a whole lot of effects beyond the infusion of skill you wanted.

Again with this? I don't understand you man, you are a knowledgeable person but sometimes you just don't see things for what they are really worth. There are 4 lw's on the leafs right now 1) marleau 2) komarov 3) jvr 4) hyman. How can you point out that "hyman is our best forechecker" without acknowledging that he was the WORST IN THE LEAGUE in converting on high scoring chances. What was it like a 3% conversion on grade A scoring chances? In what world does being a grade A grinder justify burning 25 goals??????? And no, you can't say that without him there are no chances, you can't give a player the credit twice. Those aren't chances he is creating, those are high danger chances that he was GIFTED and failed to convert. This is a prime example of how these intangibles are detracting away from the production of the team. Yes he undoubtedly gets the puck more for matthews than someone like jvr would, sure. But you know damn well that you can't sit here and tell me that JVR wouldn't have converted on more than 3% of these high scoring chances.

The top 6 needs to score goals nith, that is their role. You're not going to sit here and say that hymans worth in the top 6 is based on intangibles, that is just a terrible argument. His massive void of puck skills is causing a greater decline in production than the positive impacts of his work are having on his linemates.

hes now paid like a bottom sixer, and thats where he needs to be used.

 

[kb]

Not on our team. He's our best forechecker, and our hardest worker, or up there. Even someone who dislikes him can't dispute that.

None of the five things I mentioned are intangible, by the way.



I'll just copy the first line from the post you quoted: "He isn't on the Matthews line so he can do those things, he is there because somebody on that line needs to do them." The third wheel has a role focused on these things, and has the puck less than any other spot in our top 9. So trying to get a player as good as possible with the puck for that particular role is backwards.



Nothing else matters? What matters more than anything is to get as much out of all lines combined. Not getting talent next to Matthews.

JVR doesn't work hard and isn't a good forechecker. Komarov's greatest value to us is his 5-on-5 defense, and we need that next to Kadri. I've addressed Marleau, and he wasn't here last season.



We are talking roster management, not development. "You can teach skilled players to grind" doesn't matter one bit when we are talking using JVR on the top line.

If we put JVR on that line, we drastically weaken the Bozak line where he had a role that was perfectly tailored to him. We lose forechecking and board work, so Matthews and Nylander will have to do more of that. That means they'll spend more time on stuff like that, and less time doing things that they are elite on. To use JVR well, he needs the puck more, which means less puck for Matthews and Nylander.

There's a whole lot of effects beyond the infusion of skill you wanted.

Excellent post. Spot on.

 

[kb]

Again with this? I don't understand you man, you are a knowledgeable person but sometimes you just don't see things for what they are really worth. There are 4 lw's on the leafs right now 1) marleau 2) komarov 3) jvr 4) hyman. How can you point out that "hyman is our best forechecker" without acknowledging that he was the WORST IN THE LEAGUE in converting on high scoring chances. What was it like a 3% conversion on grade A scoring chances? In what world does being a grade A grinder justify burning 25 goals??????? And no, you can't say that without him there are no chances, you can't give a player the credit twice. Those aren't chances he is creating, those are high danger chances that he was GIFTED and failed to convert. This is a prime example of how these intangibles are detracting away from the production of the team. Yes he undoubtedly gets the puck more for matthews than someone like jvr would, sure. But you know damn well that you can't sit here and tell me that JVR wouldn't have converted on more than 3% of these high scoring chances.

The top 6 needs to score goals nith, that is their role. You're not going to sit here and say that hymans worth in the top 6 is based on intangibles, that is just a terrible argument. His massive void of puck skills is causing a greater decline in production than the positive impacts of his work are having on his linemates.

hes now paid like a bottom sixer, and thats where he needs to be used.

Nith is correct. Not true at all that these are intangibles. This is tangible, Hyman is always in first, creating havoc and allowing Matthews and Nylander to come in late and retrieve loose pucks so often, it isn't even debatable. Without that effort and persistence, do Matthews and Nylander even get the chance to set up the LW'er for a chance, never mind themselves? Doubtful.

There would be far fewer chances for the LW to burn without the efforts of Hyman to retrieve pucks. Classic catch 22. I know for me, I would rather have those opportunities and have them missed rather than never have them happen at all because no one can replicate the work of Hyman on that line.

Who will do all the grunt work with JVR on the line? With JVR on the left side, then you end up with that line being essentially a rush line, and we all know how that does not work in today's NHL.

 

[saltming]

Again with this? I don't understand you man, you are a knowledgeable person but sometimes you just don't see things for what they are really worth. There are 4 lw's on the leafs right now 1) marleau 2) komarov 3) jvr 4) hyman. How can you point out that "hyman is our best forechecker" without acknowledging that he was the WORST IN THE LEAGUE in converting on high scoring chances. What was it like a 3% conversion on grade A scoring chances? In what world does being a grade A grinder justify burning 25 goals??????? And no, you can't say that without him there are no chances, you can't give a player the credit twice. Those aren't chances he is creating, those are high danger chances that he was GIFTED and failed to convert. This is a prime example of how these intangibles are detracting away from the production of the team. Yes he undoubtedly gets the puck more for matthews than someone like jvr would, sure. But you know damn well that you can't sit here and tell me that JVR wouldn't have converted on more than 3% of these high scoring chances.

The top 6 needs to score goals nith, that is their role. You're not going to sit here and say that hymans worth in the top 6 is based on intangibles, that is just a terrible argument. His massive void of puck skills is causing a greater decline in production than the positive impacts of his work are having on his linemates.

hes now paid like a bottom sixer, and thats where he needs to be used.

I have to go with nith on this one.
That line was good and the role Hyman played was part of their effectiveness.
Hyman creates havoc in the offensive zone which gives Willie and Matthews space to capitalize.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Again with this? I don't understand you man, you are a knowledgeable person but sometimes you just don't see things for what they are really worth. There are 4 lw's on the leafs right now 1) marleau 2) komarov 3) jvr 4) hyman. How can you point out that "hyman is our best forechecker" without acknowledging that he was the WORST IN THE LEAGUE in converting on high scoring chances.

I can do that because I outlined why that's the prime responsibility for the role, and is true regardless of how he converts high scoring chances. I also did acknowledge the infusion of skill.

What was it like a 3% conversion on grade A scoring chances? In what world does being a grade A grinder justify burning 25 goals??????? And no, you can't say that without him there are no chances, you can't give a player the credit twice. Those aren't chances he is creating, those are high danger chances that he was GIFTED and failed to convert.

Well for one his conversion rate overall is extremely likely to regress towards average. That's not just a thing for players we like.

This is a prime example of how these intangibles are detracting away from the production of the team.

I'm nitpicking here but again, they are not intangible. An intangible is something we can't really see, grasp, or measure, like leadership. Skating fast, working hard and such are very tangible things.

Yes he undoubtedly gets the puck more for matthews than someone like jvr would, sure. But you know damn well that you can't sit here and tell me that JVR wouldn't have converted on more than 3% of these high scoring chances.

Read kb's post that addresses your point very well.

The top 6 needs to score goals nith, that is their role. You're not going to sit here and say that hymans worth in the top 6 is based on intangibles, that is just a terrible argument.

First of all, teams aren't built by top 6 and bottom 6 anymore. You also can't limit the role of any line to just scoring goals. Furthermore, scoring goals was far, far from a problem for that line. It's also not quite as simple a formula as just getting a better goalscorer and get more goals, as kb showed.

I've also never said Hyman is there for intangibles. Never been close to that opinion.

His massive void of puck skills is causing a greater decline in production than the positive impacts of his work are having on his linemates.

hes now paid like a bottom sixer, and thats where he needs to be used.

That's conjecture. The fact is that having one of our least talented players on that line didn't preclude it from top-end production, which allows us to use more talented pieces on other lines so that the team as a whole can be as productive as possible.

Excellent post. Spot on.

Thank you. Your post did a great job building on what I said too.

 

[FlareKnight]

In general I'd probably point to Hyman slipping down a bit in the lineup as is. I think his game would be useful throughout the lineup so he can slip down just fine. In general I'm ok with Hyman on that line with Matthews. But I think some flexibility is needed. There are times when Hyman is extremely useful at causing havoc and freeing up pucks. But there are also times when he's clearly is outmatched, gets knocked over, and the puck is cleared out pretty easily.

I think Komarov could fit on the fourth line, but not sure Babcock would want to lose his presence on that line with Kadri. In some ways I could see Brown sliding around, but I don't think him on the fourth line would work great since Moore and Martin aren't going to help him create much offense.

I think Hyman sliding down makes the most sense. It will change the dynamic putting someone else with Matthews and probably Nylander. But I don't think that will really hurt the line either. It will just change the kind of attack that line goes with. While I also think Hyman's game won't be hurt no matter what line he is on. He can create havoc on the fourth line as much as on the first.

 

[PuckMagi]

Marleau - Matthews - Marner
JVR - Bozak - Nylander
Komorov - Kadri - Brown
Martin - Moore - Hyman
Leivo

I would like to see Leivo subbing in for Martin and Hyman a lot depending on if we need toughness (Martin), defense (Hyman), or scoring (Leivo) against the particular team we are playing. No need to have Martin play all 82 games, and Hyman's play style is too exhausting to play for all 82 games also. I really hope we don't leave quality players like Leivo to rot on the bench all year.

 

[BodaciousBeefBazooka]

We all know who it should be. I already knew before even seeing the poll

 

[Mikeyg]

I have to go with nith on this one.
That line was good and the role Hyman played was part of their effectiveness.
Hyman creates havoc in the offensive zone which gives Willie and Matthews space to capitalize.

This is pure delusion. Hyman is a passenger, you will praise me for this one come october.

Nith is correct. Not true at all that these are intangibles. This is tangible, Hyman is always in first, creating havoc and allowing Matthews and Nylander to come in late and retrieve loose pucks so often, it isn't even debatable. Without that effort and persistence, do Matthews and Nylander even get the chance to set up the LW'er for a chance, never mind themselves? Doubtful.

There would be far fewer chances for the LW to burn without the efforts of Hyman to retrieve pucks. Classic catch 22. I know for me, I would rather have those opportunities and have them missed rather than never have them happen at all because no one can replicate the work of Hyman on that line.

Who will do all the grunt work with JVR on the line? With JVR on the left side, then you end up with that line being essentially a rush line, and we all know how that does not work in today's NHL.

Nope. Terrible arguments.

 

[saltming]

This is pure delusion. Hyman is a passenger, you will praise me for this one come october.

I was at 8 games last season behind the visiting net lower bowl; he is not a passenger.
I'm not saying he cannot be upgraded on, I'm just saying he doesn't get the appreciation he deserves.

 

[Mikeyg]

I can do that because I outlined why that's the prime responsibility for the role, and is true regardless of how he converts high scoring chances. I also did acknowledge the infusion of skill.

Well for one his conversion rate overall is extremely likely to regress towards average. That's not just a thing for players we like.

I'm nitpicking here but again, they are not intangible. An intangible is something we can't really see, grasp, or measure, like leadership. Skating fast, working hard and such are very tangible things.

Read kb's post that addresses your point very well.

First of all, teams aren't built by top 6 and bottom 6 anymore. You also can't limit the role of any line to just scoring goals. Furthermore, scoring goals was far, far from a problem for that line. It's also not quite as simple a formula as just getting a better goalscorer and get more goals, as kb showed.

I've also never said Hyman is there for intangibles. Never been close to that opinion.

That's conjecture. The fact is that having one of our least talented players on that line didn't preclude it from top-end production, which allows us to use more talented pieces on other lines so that the team as a whole can be as productive as possible.

Thank you. Your post did a great job building on what I said too.

Hes a passenger nith. Really don't care about your rationalizations, he will be bumped down come october. I don't live in this fantasy land where all these "intangibles" are more valuable than the cold hard facts. Forget all the useless, subjective crap you said here, and answer to this.

Overall this season, Matthews has set Hyman up for 53 high danger chances that Hyman has put on net at five-on-five, the third-highest mark in the entire league after Connor McDavid and Matthews. Of those 53 high danger shots, Hyman has converted four of them. Considering that the expected shooting percentage from that area is 22.8 per cent, scoring on just 7.5 per cent of them is an incredible waste of opportunity.

and this

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/m/matthau01/scoring/2017


what does this mean? hes the WORST in the league in converting, and he only is responsible for 9 primary assists for matthews this year. I don't want to hear one more thing about him not bringing matthews down. This fallacy where his "amazing effort" is somehow worth this devastating effect he is having on matthews is beyond lunacy.

the facts say he HAS TO GO!!!!!!!

 

[saltming]

Hes a passenger nith. Really don't care about your rationalizations, he will be bumped down come october. I don't live in this fantasy land where all these "intangibles" are more valuable than the cold hard facts. Forget all the useless, subjective crap you said here, and answer to this.

Overall this season, Matthews has set Hyman up for 53 high danger chances that Hyman has put on net at five-on-five, the third-highest mark in the entire league after Connor McDavid and Matthews. Of those 53 high danger shots, Hyman has converted four of them. Considering that the expected shooting percentage from that area is 22.8 per cent, scoring on just 7.5 per cent of them is an incredible waste of opportunity.

and this

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/m/matthau01/scoring/2017


what does this mean? hes the WORST in the league in converting, and he only is responsible for 9 primary assists for matthews this year. I don't want to hear one more thing about him not bringing matthews down. This fallacy where his "amazing effort" is somehow worth this devastating effect he is having on matthews is beyond lunacy.

the facts say he HAS TO GO!!!!!!!

Hopefully Matthews will convert on more of those high danger chances Hyman sets him up for?
Are you basing you opinion solely on Hyman's offensive production?

 

[WilliamNylander]

Has to be Hyman

 

[Nooodles]

Guys, it won't be Hyman. Babcock will never separate him from Matthews, get used to this fact. The only guy I could see replacing Hyman on Matthews' wing in the near future is Grundström...and thats because he is the same type of player, though with better offensive abilities.

 

[Mr Hockey]

Just get/give #34 the puck ...

 

[TimeZone]

The obvious answer is Hyman. The obvious answer for Babcock is anyone but Hyman.

This. Voted Hyman because that's the logical answer here.

 

[senor martinez]

Y'all is definitely knowing hockey and seeing this one right. Marleau will play with the top guns like goose and cruise with the best of them. Of course because he gets paid. Getting that real dollar y'all heard me.

Marleau might also score like 40 goals again with the matthews because he got game like spike lee does. I've seen what marleau can do with the sharks. Having followed him for years and years.

OT talk on the side: It's funny to me that patty marleau does have only the C spot on the yahoo fantasy nhl league. He might not play a single game center field for us LOL. He might be the first player yahoo chooses to change to LW/C after the season goes on for 4 games or more. That's some dirt right there for y'all.